HoustonHorn Posted May 30, 2006 Share Posted May 30, 2006 I've had this conversation now several times - with Christian friends, with my wife, and with Christians online - and cannot seem to get my point across. Does this makes sense to anybody here, under the assumption that God is around? God sees throughout all time and knows what will happen. So He knows that tomorrow I will choose to wear brown shoes of my free will. Sure, it feels like I pick the brown shoes. But, since God knows I will pick the brown shoes I cannot have a last minute change of mind and pick the black shoes. That would make God wrong, and since God cannot be wrong I cannot pick anything but the brown shoes. So, I really don't have free will to choose. Most of the time this goes into something along the lines of "God does not predetermine things" which I've never mentioned. I've even had one person tell me that God doesn't bother with such trivial things as shoe color so of course it's my will what shoes to wear. Neither of those have anything to do with what I'm asking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dr_funkenstein Posted May 30, 2006 Share Posted May 30, 2006 In actuality, some physicists say that if you had a big enough computer with enough processing power, and you plotted the position of every atom and molecule in the universe into that computer... it would be able to logically determine the position of every atom at x point in time in the future - so from a certain point of view nobody has free will anyway, it's all pretedermined. But in answer to you question - I can kind of understand where the xians are coming from on this one. I don't necessarily think that just because god knows what you're going to choose ahead of time that it somehow makes it not a choice. It's still a choice - it's just that god knows what you'll choose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted May 30, 2006 Share Posted May 30, 2006 I've argued this point several times on this site, and other members too. And I have argued it with several Christians off-net/real-life. And no, they don't get it. Understand this, I have noticed my ability to think, reason, argue and logically see the abstractions of things increase since I deconverted. I'm serious. I know I'm not the smartest guy here, or the most knowledgeable, but I was far dumber before deconverting. Many things I couldn't understand, probably because I didn't want to understand. Maybe I did hear the little voice inside saying, "if you understand this, you will lose your faith." The Bible is right in this sense, the smart people don't get Christianity, only the dumb followers that say "yes, yes" and don't question or debate the issues. One of the few things Paul and Jesus were in a full agreement on. Just a correction, we can't decide both position and speed on atoms or particles, because of laws of Quantum Mechanics. But they recently have start talking about the quantum states, that if we could read that, understand them etc, then yes, we could build a "computer" to simulate all the events, and all is mechanical. Bad part is that it would take a computer larger than the universe to simulate all quarks in the universe. In essence, the quarks are the program simulation already. The universe is the computer. It's the most efficient way of "simulating" the quark events, but reenacting them by quarks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anakin Posted May 30, 2006 Share Posted May 30, 2006 I've argued this point several times on this site, and other members too. And I have argued it with several Christians off-net/real-life. And no, they don't get it Do you think they don't get it or they just cannot afford to accept it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Shiva H. Vishnu Posted May 30, 2006 Share Posted May 30, 2006 I don't necessarily think that just because god knows what you're going to choose ahead of time that it somehow makes it not a choice. Anything foreknown is predetermined. Period. Yes, God's foreknowledge precludes free will in humans. No, christians don't get it because they think that God can do anything. God's power is above all logical arguments in their minds so what are you gonna do? Let em be idiots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trashy Posted May 30, 2006 Share Posted May 30, 2006 predestination vs. free will debate has been going on for centuries. Not likely to get resolved any time soon..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deepblue Posted May 30, 2006 Share Posted May 30, 2006 According to the first chapter of Ephesians and many other passages, there is no free will. Eveything has been ordained, even the number of hairs on our heads. Anything less would reduce God to nothing. If something can happen outside his will, then he does not have total control. This means humans can triumph over God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted May 30, 2006 Share Posted May 30, 2006 Rom 9:14- too. "16 It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. " etc... the potter can decide about the pottery for glory or destruction, it's at his mercy. (That darn weed comes back again, now it talks about pot. ) Anyway, that's why there's no free will. But then again other verses declare the oposite, that there is a free choice. No wonder the Christian's are so confused. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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