prophecies of jesus's crucifixion

[Guest xxxJesus_Saves]

I read on another post somewhere that someone said that there are not any propheses of jesus's crucifixion.

 

What about these?

 

http://www.messiahrevealed.org/crucifixion.html

[lalli]

Edit: Argh, I totally misparsed the original post and thought it was regarding prophecies about the Jewish messiah in general, not specifically about the crucifixion, so my original response (with a link to one of many lists of prophecies that weren't fulfilled by Jesus) doesn't make much sense. My bad. I'll see if I can come up with a slightly more sensible rebuttal.

[Eponymic]

I read on another post somewhere that someone said that there are not any propheses of jesus's crucifixion.

 

What about these?

 

http://www.messiahrevealed.org/crucifixion.html

 

The fact is that all of the prophecies are interpolations written into the New Testament around 200-300 CE to make it look stronger and bolster its myth.

 

To say that plainly- all of the prophecies either don't apply to Christ, and when they do, they were written into the text just to make it look good.

[Mr. Neil]

Are we supposed to be impressed when the Bible fullfills its own prophecies? What's to say that New Testament writers simply weren't trying to fullfill Old Testament prophecies? That certainly seems to be the case when you look at Matthew 1:23.

 

The telling sign is that Matthew mistranslates a prophecy from Isaiah 7:14 and "fullfills" a prophecy that never existed. Oops!

[Guest xxxJesus_Saves]

The fact is that all of the prophecies are interpolations written into the New Testament around 200-300 CE to make it look stronger and bolster its myth.

 

To say that plainly- all of the prophecies either don't apply to Christ, and when they do, they were written into the text just to make it look good.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

How do you know that?

[Eponymic]

How do you know that?

 

I did my homework

 

If you want I can site a myriad of authors who confirm this fact.

[Skankboy]

"How do you know that?"

 

God told me. And by the way...she's VERY UPSET w/you all misrepresnting her...

[lalli]

Are we supposed to be impressed when the Bible fullfills its own prophecies?  What's to say that New Testament writers simply weren't trying to fullfill Old Testament prophecies?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

*sniff* Damn you, Neil. I was going to make up for my total misparsage of xxxJesus_Saves' original post by making a clever rebuttal, but you stolex0r it from me! I hate you now. :angry: :ph33r:

 

I shall have to redeem myself by merely building on your argument. *humph*

 

There's nothing intrinsically impressive about later parts of a book fulfilling predictions made in earlier parts of the book.

Since the book in question was written in segments over time, and since later authors had access to earlier segments of the book, how do we know they didn't embellish facts so as to more neatly fit the predictions in earlier segments? This possibility becomes more likely when one realises the segments describing Jesus' life were written well after his death, when eyewitnesses were less likely to remember accurately what happened, and more likely to 'remember' things that didn't happen.

Now take into account the fact that the canon of books that comprise the Christian New Testament wasn't agreed upon until centuries after Jesus' death. There are many early Christian writings that never made it into the official canon. With this much human editorial control over what was included and what was not, why should any of us believe that the writings that fulfill Jewish prophecy were selected for their authenticity and not for the simple fact that they paint the picture the editors wanted to see?

[Eponymic]

xxxJesus_Saves.

 

Do we have some hidden, repressed sexuality that want to be expressed?

[narcissist]

Gee, that Matthew 27:35 is a pretty good verse. Look at all the prophecies it fulfills.

 

There’s nothing in the "prophecies" that specifically point to Jesus, or his experiences. These are just more cases of finding “prophecies to fit the fulfillment,” and “fulfillments to fit the prophecy,” (like Matthew 27:35). The Gospels record Jesus as experiencing something, so Christians have to go trawling through the OT looking for something that might be remotely interpreted as being a prophecy about Jesus’ crucifixion and death.

 

Example 1: Psalm 22:14b / Matt 27:35. “all my bones are out of joint” could prophecy a number of things, least of all crucifixion, given that dislocating bone joints is not one of the goals, nor consequences, of crucifixion.

 

Example 2: Psam 22:17b “they look and stare upon me”. People look and stare at things all the time, especially, I would have thought, prisoners who are put on public display . One might as well have prophesied that “at some point in his life, Jesus would wear clothes.”

 

Why are nearly all of these “prophecies” about the crucifixion of Christ found in out of context verses in the Psalms, but not where one would expect them to be, within context, in the Prophets?

[Ouroboros]

"How do you know that?"

 

God told me.  And by the way...she's VERY UPSET w/you all misrepresnting her...

 

Hey, another Invader Zim fan. Cool.

 

"What does G stand for?"

 

"I doooon't know."

[Ouroboros]

I read on another post somewhere that someone said that there are not any propheses of jesus's crucifixion.

 

What about these?

 

http://www.messiahrevealed.org/crucifixion.html

 

There's a whole bunch of people that are piercing there feet, hands, face etc today.

I think the prophesies in OT was about modern piercing and not Jesus.

 

Cool huh.

They knew what kids would do today, in our time.

Amazing.

Praise Bob.

[Asimov]

Ok,

 

so using your logic, xxxjesus_saves, the Iliad and Odyssey are true because of all the prophecies that came true through the oracle at Delphi.

[white_raven23]

I just find it amusing that all a christian needs for justification of their beliefs is ONE cruddy book with few discernable authors, written many years after the events and stories they represent supposedly took place despite a notable LACK of evidence for said events elsewhere.

 

 

But when we say anything in opposition, we have to come up with sources. And usually not just one.

 

And Christians....we have tons of sources. It's just kind of hard to pick and choose which one we are going to list. They're all so good.

[Guest Son of Belial]

Ok,

 

so using your logic, xxxjesus_saves, the Iliad and Odyssey are true because of all the prophecies that came true through the oracle at Delphi.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yeah, a couple years ago I read where Zeus says that Hector was going to die, and then Achilles killed him, and I was all like "This must be like TOTALLY true!"

 

Hail Zeus! Praise Olympus!

[Kryten]

There's an interesting page from the Skeptics Annotated Bible that covers the false prophecies on the bible.

 

Part of the problem for the NT writers was that they relied on the Septuagint (a Greek translation of the Hebrew scriptures), which was full of errors. It makes perfect sense that they would incorporate those errors into their writings, since they didn't know any better.

 

Here is the NT portion of that page, most of which refer to Jesus...

 

Matthew

 

The prophecy given in Is.7:14 referred not to a virgin but to a young woman, living at the time of the prophecy. And Jesus, of course, was called Jesus -- and is not called Emmanuel in any verse in the New Testament. 1:23

 

Matthew claims that Jesus' birth in Bethlehem fulfils the prophecy in Micah 5:2. But this is unlikely for two reasons.

 

"Bethlehem Ephratah" in Micah 5:2 refers not to a town, but to a clan: the clan of Bethlehem, who was the son of Caleb's second wife, Ephrathah (1 Chr.2:18, 2:50-52, 4:4).

 

The prophecy (if that is what it is) does not refer to the Messiah, but rather to a military leader, as can be seen from Micah 5:6. This leader is supposed to defeat the Assyrians, which, of course, Jesus never did.

It should also be noted that Matthew altered the text of Micah 5:2 by saying: "And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Juda" rather than "Bethlehem Ephratah" as is said in Micah 5:2. He did this, intentionally no doubt, to make the verse appear to refer to the town of Bethlehem rather than the family clan. 2:5-6

 

"Out of Egypt I have called my son,"

Matthew claims that the flight of Jesus' family to Egypt is a fulfillment of Hosea 11:1. But Hosea 11:1 is not a prophecy at all, as is clear when the entire verse is quoted ("When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt."). It is a reference to the Hebrew exodus from Egypt and has nothing to do with Jesus. Matthew tries to hide this fact by quoting only the last part of the verse. 2:15

 

Matthew quotes Jeremiah 31:15, claiming that it was a prophecy of King Herod's alleged slaughter of the children in and around Bethlehem after the birth of Jesus. But this verse refers to the Babylonian captivity, as is clear by reading the next two verses (16 and 17), and, thus, has nothing to do with Herod's massacre. 2:17-18

 

"He shall be called a Nazarene." Matthew claims this was a fulfillment of prophecy, yet such a prophecy is not found anywhere in the Old Testament. 2:23

 

The devil correctly quotes scripture (Ps.91:11-12), while Jesus misquotes Deuteronomy by adding "only" to Dt.6:13. 4:6, 10

 

Families will be torn apart because of Jesus (this is one of the few "prophecies" in the Bible that has actually come true). "Brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death." 10:21

 

Jesus tells his disciples that he will return before they can "go over the cities of Israel." Later (24:14) he says he will not come until the gospel is preached throughout the world. Well, his disciples went over the cities of Israel and then died waiting for the "return of the Lord." Now, nearly 2000 years later, and long after the gospel had been preached throughout the world, his followers still wait. 10:23

 

When Jesus and his disciples are accused of breaking the Sabbath, he excuses himself by referring to a scripture in which priests who "profaned the Sabbath" were blameless. But there is no such passage in the Old Testament. 12:5

 

Misquote of Ps.78:2-3 13:35

 

Jesus visits Tyre which according to Ezekiel (26:14, 21; 27:36, 28:19) was not supposed to exist. 15:21

 

Jesus mistakenly tells his followers that he will return and establish his kingdom within their lifetime. 16:28

 

This verse claims that Jesus fulfils the prophecy in Zechariah 9:9. But this cannot be since the person referred to in Zechariah (see verses 10-13) was both a military leader and the king of an earthly kingdom. 21:4

 

Jesus predicts the end of the world within the lifetime of his listeners. 23:36

 

Jesus says the gospel will be preached to all nations "and then shall the end come. Well according to Paul the gospel has been preached to everyone (Rom.10:18) yet the end hasn't come. 24:14

 

Jesus is a false prophet, since he predicts that the end of the world will come within the lifetimes of his disciples. The world of course didn't end then, and according to Ec.1:4 it never will end. 24:34

 

"But all this was done, that the Scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled." What scriptures? What prophets? There is no such prophecy in the Old Testament. 26:54-46

 

Jesus falsely prophesies that the high priest would see his second coming. 26:64

 

This is not a quote from Jeremiah, but a misquote of Zechariah (11:12-13). 27:9

 

Mark

 

Mark claims that John the Baptist fulfilled the prophecy given in Malachi (3:1, 4:1, 5). But the Malachi prophecy says that God will send Elijah before "the great and dreadful day of the LORD" in which the world will be consumed by fire. Yet John the Baptist flatly denied that he was Elijah (Elias) in John 1:21 and the earth was not destroyed after John's appearance. 1:2

 

Ezekiel (26:14, 21, 27:36) prophesied that Tyre would be completely destroyed, never to be built again. But it wasn't destroyed and continued to exist, as shown by this verse in which Jesus visits Tyre. 7:24, 31

 

Jesus falsely prophesies that the end of the world will come within his listeners' lifetimes. 9:1

 

Jesus shows that he is a false prophet by predicting his return and the end of the world within the lifetime of his listeners. 13:30

 

Jesus falsely prophesies that the high priest would see his second coming. 14:62

 

Luke

 

Jesus falsely predicts that some of his listeners would live to see him return and establish the kingdom of God. 9:27

 

Jesus prophesies that families will be divided because of him and his teachings. Sadly, this is one prophecy that has been fulfilled. 12:52-53

 

Jesus says that all that he describes (his return, signs in the sun, moon, and stars, etc.) will occur within the within the lifetime of his listeners. 21:32

 

Jesus claims that his suffering and death were a fulfillment of prophecy. But there is no such prophecy in the Old Testament. 24:44, 46

 

John

 

Jesus says that "the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live."  5:25

 

Jesus claims that Moses wrote about him. Where? It's a shame he didn't give us chapter and verse. 5:46

 

Jesus says that those who believe in him will, as the scripture says, have living waters flowing out of their bellies. Well that sounds like fun, but there is no such scripture in the Bible. 7:38

 

Jesus falsely prophesies that "there shall be one fold, and one shepherd." This will never happen as long a Christian beliefs are based on the Bible. 10:16

 

This verse claims that Jesus fulfils the prophecy in Zechariah 9:9. But this cannot be since the person referred to in Zechariah (see verses 10-13) was both a military leader and the king of an earthly kingdom. 12:15

 

Verse 33 says that during Jesus' crucifixion, the soldiers didn't break his legs because he was already dead. Verse 36 claims that this fulfilled a prophecy: "Not a bone of him shall be broken." But there is no such prophecy. It is sometimes said that the prophecy appears in Ex.12:46, Num. 9:12 and Ps.34:20. This is not correct. Exodus 12:46 and Num.9:12 are not prophecies, they are commandments. The Israelites are told not to break the bones of the Passover lamb, and this is all it is about. And Psalm 34:20 seems to refer to righteous people in general (see verse 19, where a plural is used), not to make a prophecy about a specific person. 19:33, 36

 

Jesus implies that he will return to earth during the lifetime of John. 21:22

 

Acts

 

Peter says that their strange behavior (speaking in tongues, etc.) was to be expected since they were living in "the last days." 2:17

 

Peter wrongly claims that Dt.18:18-19 refers to Jesus, saying that those who refuse to follow him (all non-christians) must be killed. 3:23

 

This verse admits that God's promise to Abraham was not fulfilled. (See Gen.12:7, 13:15, 15:18, and 17:8) 7:5

 

Ezekiel (26:14, 21; 27:36) prophesied that Tyre would be completely destroyed by Nebuchadrezzar, never to be built again. Yet it wasn't destroyed, as is evident from this verse. 12:20

 

Gen.49:10 says that all of Israel's kings will be from the tribe of Judah, yet we see in this verse that Israel's first king was from the tribe of Benjamin. 13:21

 

Paul quotes God as saying, "I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will." But no such quote can be found in the Old Testament. (Although 1 Sam.13:14 does refer to David as "a man after his [God's] own heart." And it makes some sense, too, since David was nearly as cruel as the biblical God.) 13:22

 

In one of the few times that Paul quotes Jesus, he attributes to him words that are not found in the gospels. 20:35

 

Ezekiel (26:14, 21; 27:36) prophesied that Tyre would be completely destroyed by Nebuchadrezzar, never to be built again. Yet it wasn't destroyed, as is evident from these verses. 21:3-4

 

These verses claim that Moses and the prophets prophesied that Jesus would suffer and rise from the dead. But in what scripture is such a prophecy made? 26:22-23

 

Romans

 

Misquote of Is.28:16. 9:33

 

Paul says that everyone, even in his day, had the gospel preached to them. Even the Native Americans, Asians, Pacific Islanders? In any case, if Paul is right about that, then Jesus is a false prophet, since he said he would return before the gospel was preached to everyone. (Mt.10:23) 10:18

 

Paul believed that the end of the world was coming soon. "The day is at hand." 13:11-12

 

Paul believed that Jesus would return and defeat Satan "shortly" -- within his own lifetime. 16:20

 

1 Corinthians

 

Paul tells the Corinthians to be good until "the day of our Lord Jesus Christ." (He expected Jesus to return within their lifetimes.) 1:7-8

 

Paul, like Jesus and the other New Testament writers, expects the end to come soon. "The time is short." So there's no time for sex or marriage since the world will be ending soon. 7:29

 

Paul says that the end of the world will come during his lifetime. 10:11, 15:51

 

These verses claim that the scriptures prophesied that Jesus would suffer, die, and be resurrected from the dead. But where are the prophecies that are referred to here? Hosea 6:2 perhaps? But this verse refers to the people living at the time (hence "us") and therefore cannot be fulfilled by the the death and resurrection of Jesus. 15:3-4

 

Philippians

 

Paul tells the Philippians to be good "till the day of Christ." So he must have expected Jesus to return within their lifetimes. 1:10

 

"The Lord is at hand." Paul thought that the end was near and that Jesus would return soon after he wrote these words. 4:5

 

1 Thessalonians

 

Paul expected Jesus to return within the lifetime of his followers. 3:13

 

Paul thought he would live to see the rapture. 4:15, 17

 

Paul prays that the Thessalonians will be good until Jesus returns, implying that he expected this to happen within their lifetimes. 5:23

 

2 Thessalonians

 

"The day of Christ is at hand." Paul believed that he would see Jesus' return. 2:2

 

1 Timothy

 

Paul expected Jesus to return within the lifetime of his followers. 6:14

 

Hebrews

 

The author of Hebrews believed that he was living in the "last days." 1:1-2

 

Misquote of Jer.31:32 8:9

 

Jesus sacrificed himself "in the end of the world." 9:26

 

Misquote of Ps.40:6 10:5-6

 

The author of Hebrews believed that Jesus would come "in a little while, and will not tarry." 10:37

 

In Genesis (13:15, 15:18, 17:8) and Exodus (32:13) God promises Abraham and his descendants "the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession." But here Paul admits that God's promise went unfulfilled. 11:9-13

 

James

 

James quotes a scripture that says, "The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy." But there is no such verse in the Bible. 4:5

 

James thought that Jesus would return soon. 5:8

 

1 Peter

 

Peter wrongly believed that he was living in the "last times." 1:5, 7, 20

 

"The end of all things is at hand." 4:7

 

2 Peter

 

The author of 2 Peter is aware of the failed expectations of early believers. He knows that Jesus, who was to come soon, didn't come at all. Many have begun to ask, "Where is the promise of his coming?" He tries to cover for Jesus by claiming that "one day with the Lord is as a thousand years." 3:4

 

1 John

 

John thinks he is living in "the last times." He "knows" this because he sees so many antichrists around. 2:18, 4:3

 

John warns his followers to get ready because Jesus is coming soon. 2:28

 

John expects to live to see Jesus return. 3:2

 

Jude

 

Jude says Enoch, "the seventh from Adam", prophesied that God would come with 10,000 of his saints "to execute judgment upon all." But this prophecy is from the Book of Enoch, not from the Bible. 14-15

 

Revelation

 

John believed that the things that he wrote about would happen soon, within his own lifetime. After nearly 2000 years, believers still believe that "the time is at hand" and that the events described in Revelation will "shortly come to pass." 1:1, 3

 

"Every eye shall see him," including those who executed him. Everyone will "wail because of him." But millions have lived and died without ever seeing him coming "with clouds." 1:7

 

John quotes Jesus (1900 years ago) as saying, "Behold, I come quickly." 3:11, 22:7, 12, 20

[Ouroboros]

I think the bible have some prophesies about GW.

 

Moses and the burning bush for instance.

They knew that one day a Bush would come that would be burning for God, and be a voice for God to the world!

 

(I'm just kidding, alright)

 

[Thurisaz]

What about these?

 

Considering that we are talking about a book that mentions unicorns, dragons and other assorted fairy tale beasties, describes the world as flat and resting on pillars with a dome-shaped firmament above it, tells us about four-legged birds and insects et cetera ad nauseam, any "fulfilled prophecy" is much more likely to have been written into the text after the fact by dishonest lying bastards (in other words, fundies) than to have come from any deity. If the sadistic deity of the christian death cult really made sure that some supposedly "true prophecies" are part of its "revealed word", I guess it had to spend so much time and energy on them that it fucked up royally with all the nonsense I stated, eh?

But then, what to expect from a wannabe "god" that is too weak to overcome some shitty iron chariots (Judges 1:19... I wonder what would happen if we just used some decent Leopard II's against it? ) and can't even keep an overview of its own garden (Genesis - the exact verse escapes me at the moment)?

 

The High Gods I honor aren't omnipotent et cetera too, but then, no Asatruar I know of ever claimed that in the first place. Yup, we are at least honest - in sharp contrast to those braindead fundies.

[chefranden]

Prophecy from the aforementioned link: the Messiah would be sacrificed upon the same mountain god tested Abraham.

 

Genesis 22:14 So Abraham called that plays the Lord will provide.  And to this day it is said, "on the mountain of the lord it will be provided."  Compared with Luke 23:33 When they came to the place called the skull, there they crucified him, along with the criminals -- one on his right, the other on his left. 

 

The mountain on which Abraham supposedly almost sacrificed his son, Isaac, is known as Zion. It is the mountain on which Herod's temple was built. The Jews would hardly allow a crucifixion to take place there. The place of Jesus's alleged crucifixion is Golgotha or the place of the skull. Prophecy busted.

 

I don't know why it is you Christians expect us to do your studying for you. You can check out the rest of the prophecies yourself.