Philosophy of the universe

[Eccles1:2]

Consider the man who finds a watch in the desert and concludes that it must have been designed and created rather than coming about naturally.

 

This "intelligent design" argument suggests by analogy that the universe must similarly have been created by an intelligent designer, which theologians equate with God. The question "who then created God?" follows naturally. The theologians aver that no-one created God; he is uncreated, "from everlasting to everlasting". In making this assertion they are positing the existence of an entity (God) which does not require to have been created. Why, then, do we need God at all as a creator? Why can we not take the argument back a step and suggest that the universe itself is an entity that does not need to have been created?

[Mr. Neil]

This is precisely the reason I became an atheist.

[Reach]

Why can we not take the argument back a step and suggest that the universe itself is an entity that does not need to have been created?  

This is why sometimes I kind of think of the Universe as a sort of god.

 

And as an atheist, I'm not required to worship.

[Ouroboros]

Consider the man who finds a watch in the desert and concludes that it must have been designed and created rather than coming about naturally.

 

This "intelligent design" argument suggests by analogy that the universe must similarly have been created by an intelligent designer, which theologians equate with God. The question "who then created God?" follows naturally. The theologians aver that no-one created God; he is uncreated, "from everlasting to everlasting". In making this assertion they are positing the existence of an entity (God) which does not require to have been created. Why, then, do we need God at all as a creator? Why can we not take the argument back a step and suggest that the universe itself is an entity that does not need to have been created?

 

Absolutely right.

 

Or the answer could be that God has a God has a God ... in an infinite chain.

 

I bet you, if God exists, that he's spending most of his time thinking:

"Where did I come from?"

 

[spamandham]

The more clever theists will argue that since causality is part of spacetgime, and since god is outside spacetime (whatever that is supposed to mean), he does not require a cause.

 

But all these arguments are ad hoc anyway. No-one has ever witnessed anything being created or destroyed. All we have ever seen is the rearangment of matter and energy from one form to another. The creator analogy breaks down from that alone, since a proper analogy would require that god "create" the universe by rearranging something that already existed, not by poofing it magically.

[Asimov]

Consider the man who finds a watch in the desert and concludes that it must have been designed and created rather than coming about naturally.

 

This "intelligent design" argument suggests by analogy that the universe must similarly have been created by an intelligent designer, which theologians equate with God. The question "who then created God?" follows naturally. The theologians aver that no-one created God; he is uncreated, "from everlasting to everlasting". In making this assertion they are positing the existence of an entity (God) which does not require to have been created. Why, then, do we need God at all as a creator? Why can we not take the argument back a step and suggest that the universe itself is an entity that does not need to have been created?

 

Consider the man who finds God in the desert and concludes that it must have been designed and created rather than coming about naturally....

[pitchu]

1) Every attribute of "God" arises out of the presumption that God is conscious. 2) Consciousness arrives out of existence and is dedicated to the perception of and interaction with All That Exists. When I added these two things up, the idea of a Consciousness as an antecedent to anything to be conscious OF! ... made me an instant atheist.

[Loren]

The more clever theists will argue that since causality is part of spacetgime, and since god is outside spacetime (whatever that is supposed to mean), he does not require a cause.

So then... when all the Christians die and go to Heaven (which is outside of space-time), they will suddenly be creatorless?

 

I know, I know.

 

I just couldn't resist.

[Ouroboros]

1) Every attribute of "God" arises out of the presumption that God is conscious.  2) Consciousness arrives out of existence and is dedicated to the perception of and interaction with All That Exists.  When I added these two things up, the idea of a Consciousness as an antecedent to anything to be conscious OF! ... made me an instant atheist.

 

It's funny that we project ourself unto God; we are conscious therefor God must be, we are intelligent therefore God must be, we have feet and eyes therefore God must have it, we have some evolution evolved sense of moral therefore God must have it too. So God is nothing more than image of how we see ourselfs.

[Ouroboros]

 

To expand the analogy, if the man finds the watch in the dessert, but doesn't know what it's for, and later figure out it's function, but also finds that the watch contains an extreme amount of unnessesary cogwheels and mechanics that doesn't have any meaning or function. Doesn't that imply that the construction/design wasn't so intelligent after all?

 

That's what we have with evolution. Our DNA contains a vast amount of pseudo genes that doesn't have any meaning of function anymore. Some of them actually are identical to certain germs and bacteria, hinting that we have evolved from or in symbiosis with lower levels of life before we got to what we are.

[Ouroboros]

Consider the man who finds a watch in the desert and concludes that it must have been designed and created rather than coming about naturally.

 

This "intelligent design" argument suggests by analogy that the universe must similarly have been created by an intelligent designer, which theologians equate with God. The question "who then created God?" follows naturally. The theologians aver that no-one created God; he is uncreated, "from everlasting to everlasting". In making this assertion they are positing the existence of an entity (God) which does not require to have been created. Why, then, do we need God at all as a creator? Why can we not take the argument back a step and suggest that the universe itself is an entity that does not need to have been created?

 

I was thinking about this illustration most christians used some time (including me), that a watch has to a maker, so then the world have to have one too.

 

But today I realized one of the errors in the illustration. The watchmaker only reformats existing matter, so using the illustration, God didn't create the universe from nothing, but from existing matter from before, i.e. the matter must still have existed eternally.