doomguarder Posted June 12, 2006 Share Posted June 12, 2006 I am one of the “never was” folks on this site, I would like to ask a question. If xtians truly believed in their god unequivocally, would they feel the need to defend their faith to people like those on this site (agnostics, atheists, and the generally unaffiliated)? Would they even be here? My personal thought on this is no. Faith does not require proof by definition. If they had the faith they so loudly claim, they would not be running around looking at arguments against god. The louder they protest the more they are in a state of questioning themselves. Is this one of the steps of deconversion? I know back when I frequented this site more (you will be seeing me around a lot more now) the members were working on a list of the steps associated with leaving the xtian faith. Would this be one of them? I ask because I do not always understand why those who profess religion feel the need to put in the face of those around them, not all mind you, but many. This is hard to deal with in the work place, and in family life. I rarely mention my atheism to the people I work with, but I do not hide it either. If asked I WILL answer. Could this be part of the “anti-god = anti-american” thing. Do they know subconsciously that they are being fooled and wish the same deception on others? Misery loves company you know… Anyways, any comments? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KT45 Posted June 12, 2006 Share Posted June 12, 2006 I agree with most of your post. Most of the christians that come here are doing so because A. They question there faith B. They want to save our souls C. They plainly want to silence all arguments so other "weaker" christians don't fall D. They don't understand how people could be like us E. Boredom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted June 12, 2006 Share Posted June 12, 2006 First, I agree, debating to prove your faith is a sign of weakness. You want others to admit that you're right, and the only reason would be to get confirmation to what you believe. And you're correct, faith does not require proof. At least that's how Heb 11 states. It's almost the opposite. Faith with proof, is no longer faith. But, there's the side that many want to debate because they want to convert you to their religion. They truly believe you have to convert to their belief, or you're lost. In those cases, it could be doubts and they need confirmation, or it could be just a fear of not have done enough for their savior. What I mean is, if you would truly believe Jesus told you to spread the gospel to the world, and you don't, you fear he'll be displeased with your actions. I've been at both places. I don't think debating is a first step to deconversion though. I've been debating religious issues from the beginning. My brothers and sister too, but two of them are still hard core Christians, one is apostate like me, and one is more of a liberal Christian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pandora Posted June 12, 2006 Share Posted June 12, 2006 When it comes to pure faith, I can see your point and I agree. However, as a Christian, I was under the false assumption that Christianity was more than just a faith... I thought Christianity has provable historical facts associated with it that made it different from all other kinds of faith. Of course, I was mistaken, but I think it's safe to assume that many Christians who come to this site are under the same assumption, and they truly are trying to argue that Christianity has a solid historical basis. I also think it is possible to have faith and come to this site without questioning one's own faith... some of them think that they have new perspectives on "faith" and how to have it, and that we need these new perspectives to come back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doomguarder Posted June 12, 2006 Author Share Posted June 12, 2006 So I guess it is the "I want to save your soul because I live in constant fear of my deity" that I do not understand. Why choose this existence? I have a hard time empathizing there, seriously hard time. Why follow, i.e. give power over yourself too, a deity that demands your absolute obedience or eternal damnation. Bah humbug. We say it is a basic human right not to live in constant fear of government-sanctioned death. That this is a value we should all share and change the world to reflect. How is fearing hell any different, your leader (deity) can on a whim destroy your life or cause you absolute suffering for all of time. I appreciate the answers, I did kind of skip the saving souls bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted June 12, 2006 Share Posted June 12, 2006 I agree with most of your post. Most of the christians that come here are doing so because A. They question there faith B. They want to save our souls C. They plainly want to silence all arguments so other "weaker" christians don't fall D. They don't understand how people could be like us E. Boredom You forgot one, F. Sheer fucking stupidity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doomguarder Posted June 12, 2006 Author Share Posted June 12, 2006 I can understand that Pandora. And so few go and check the sources on things they are told or read. So evident in religion and politics Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted June 12, 2006 Share Posted June 12, 2006 So I guess it is the "I want to save your soul because I live in constant fear of my deity" that I do not understand. Why choose this existence? I agree, it is hard to understand. Some become "born again" out of the complete fear of going to Hell. And the way to avoid it is to do whatever God has commanded humanity to do to save itself from Hell. Which would be follow and obey Jesus' commands... etc. But one part of religious faith is fear of the supreme being. It even says so in the Bobble. To Fear the Lord is common in the book, and it's explained as not being the same fear as vertigo, or fear of wild animals etc, but basically extreme respect for this being. Like fear of fire. You don't necessarily run away from fire, it can be useful, and will give you warmth, but you have to respect it and fear what it can do if it gets destructive. That's why it was so nice to get out of it. No fear. It has been lifted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KT45 Posted June 12, 2006 Share Posted June 12, 2006 So I guess it is the "I want to save your soul because I live in constant fear of my deity" that I do not understand. Why choose this existence? I have a hard time empathizing there, seriously hard time. Well when you become a christian they don't introduce you to that side of christianity. The first thing they do is introduce you to the lovey-dovey side of christianity to lure you in. Then once they know your in the hit you with the rules, needing to please God etc. If they don't get you with the lovely dovey stuff then the other questions come out "Do you want to go to hell? God doesn't want you to so become a christian." That sentence along with the sentence "do you want to go to heaven" automatically put you in a frame of mind that you have to answer yes or no to a question without having you consider if you even really believe there is a heaven or a hell. In other words you automatically assume hell is real. You don't want to go to the bad place so you feel obligated to join. Also when I became a christian I was taught that the devil was trying to bring my soul to hell not God. So I never looked at it like "live for God or he will send you to hell" kind of mentality ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -EDIT- So I guess it is the "I want to save your soul because I live in constant fear of my deity" that I do not understand. Why choose this existence? I agree, it is hard to understand. Some become "born again" out of the complete fear of going to Hell. Damn it you beat me too it!!! I'll get you next time!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doomguarder Posted June 12, 2006 Author Share Posted June 12, 2006 Fear of a place that there is no proof exists. I feel sort of sorry for xtians at this moment. Where is your freedom of choice when fear dominates your judgement? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted June 12, 2006 Share Posted June 12, 2006 You got it. You should feel sorry for them. And also, there's no freedom in fear (I think that's in the Bible even!), but as Christian I had more fear than now. So I really felt freedom, when I deconverted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KT45 Posted June 12, 2006 Share Posted June 12, 2006 Fear of a place that there is no proof exists. I feel sort of sorry for xtians at this moment. Where is your freedom of choice when fear dominates your judgement? Yeah it was a scary idea. Like you said there is no proof it exist but in my mind I used to think that there is no real proof it doesn't exist. But everyone around me told me it was real. So I stayed a good little boy so I wouldn't burn in hell and never see my family again (it's cruel to teach kids this). But on a side note. I never feared the muslims version of hell. Just like the christian hell I couldn't prove or disprove it's existance but I never feared the muslim's version of hell. I wonder why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Checkmate Posted June 12, 2006 Share Posted June 12, 2006 I don't know "why" they come, (fear, curiosity, arrogance, etc.) I just wish they'd be intellectually HONEST for once! When we score a point against them, how about showing some reasonable human decency and admit that you've been skunked?!? Don't avoid the posts, or pretend not to understand. They can keep their precious "faith", just admit it when they're wrong, and that we have a valid point. That's why I hate most Xians who come here, AND why I don't visit Xian forums. It's a time waster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doomguarder Posted June 12, 2006 Author Share Posted June 12, 2006 Yes, Zoe, it would be a double-edged blade. Some would definitely fit into the category of uncertainty. But I think we have established that this is not the case for all xtians here; therefore, not the case for all x-xtians and atheists there as well. But it is a point to ponder. We have to give that some people just like to argue and might not be honest as to their position if it gets their opponents ire up. BTW I am glad to see you stuck around here. Taylork, I am happy that you walked away from the fear that was in control of your actions. The number of people who live this horror astounds me. Perhaps we will begin believing in humanities possibilities over a deity’s whims one day. But not in my lifetime, me thinks. Sad but true… Hey Mr. Grinch, Yeah, a lost point should not shake the foundations of their faith but make it stronger. Where is the faith in facts proven by logic or science. Science not matching their worldview should slide like water off a ducks back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lycorth Posted June 13, 2006 Share Posted June 13, 2006 When it comes to pure faith, I can see your point and I agree. However, as a Christian, I was under the false assumption that Christianity was more than just a faith... I thought Christianity has provable historical facts associated with it that made it different from all other kinds of faith. Of course, I was mistaken, but I think it's safe to assume that many Christians who come to this site are under the same assumption, and they truly are trying to argue that Christianity has a solid historical basis. I also think it is possible to have faith and come to this site without questioning one's own faith... some of them think that they have new perspectives on "faith" and how to have it, and that we need these new perspectives to come back. I agree muchly - when I was Xian, I thought it was literal, historical truth, not just a "faith" to believe in. I used to try and debate in order to convert people, or at least impress Jeezus with my zeal. But yes, I do think many Xians come here because they may have doubts. Again, as a Xian, I did that, too - look at pagan websites and such because on some level, I was starting to agree with them. The need to justify their faith is important to them - and when I was trying to make converts, there was a part of me that also wanted to see people swayed by my arguments so I could get some validation for my burdensome religion. As an Odinist, I don't feel the need to overly advertise, push and preach, or debate non-Odinists. I just don't see the point. Then again, Odinism isn't a "turn or burn" cult, which is what drives most Xians to preach here and elsewhere in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mythra Posted June 13, 2006 Share Posted June 13, 2006 Don't forget obedience. Big with good little christian soldiers. "Always be prepared to give an answer for the hope that is in you" "go and make disciples of all nations teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you" "go into the whole world and proclaim the gospel to all creation" "no one lights a lamp and puts it under the bed" yada yada yada. The religion has a built in mechanism to make sure the biblebots keep replicating. And that's not to mention the personal marching orders that a christian receives directly from God. If they accidently stumble onto this website, there's the sign directly from God that someone here on this site needs to be led back home to the arms of Jesus. Obedience. Yes Jesus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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