The Nice Guy Award.

July 11, 2015

Fresh meat. But unfortunately, he appears to be another dime-a-dozen indoctrination Christian, full of mere assertions of his particular religious dogma and likely versed in standard Christian Apologetics with their attendant logical fallacies, factual lies and misrepresentations and holier-than-thous hubris.

I couldn't have said it any better. Same old "ready made" answers based on a fairy tale they have no proof for.

July 11, 2015

"You can however, lose salvation by turning away from Jesus."

This is utter nonsense. Nowhere else in life does believing something accomplish anything at all. The only

thing belief is good for is getting you to fall for a scam. Why would anybody care what we believe? Really

think about it. An eternal God exists forever in an empty void. Then one day this God decides to create

people and God suddenly wants these people to believe in Him without God providing any evidence?

Why? Is God insecure? And why does God allow so many fake religions and false God beliefs to exist

when that would only confuse the issue? Seems like the whole thing is made up.

"So here we have it, God is continually, for all of history, trying to figure out why we're so obstinate and

destructive in all aspects of our lives. Yet, He repeatedly forgives us, sacrifices for us, and tries to set us on

the right path." Yeah God cares so much that he never returns in person. If God were real he would

know how to contact me and would have the power to do so. There is no need for God to send a

messenger, let alone a different messenger from all the thousands of different sects of Christianity that all

disagree with each other.

"As for Satan, just reading the various threads on this site exposes it all." It's obvious that Satan is

imaginary. There is no evidence that he ever existed aside from the imagination. Have you ever wondered

why Satan exist in Christian theology? You can't have a comic book without a villain.

"I do understand that many of you have had very bad personal experiences with church and religion." Try

instead people like you. What you just did right there - trying to enslave people with your delusions. You

are what is wrong with Christianity.

"There is not one that has not sinned many times." Actually there is no sin. Since God is imaginary there

is no deity to offend. Thus sin is imaginary.

"Churches, no matter the size, require some type of leadership. Being in this position can become an

immense power trip. A very difficult temptation to stand up against." Strange how your God looks down on

all the sinful pastors and never lifts a finger to stop any of the abominations that happen in God's own

house. It is as if God is too busy pretending to be imaginary. If I had God like powers I would never allow

any child to be raped. That is the difference between your God and me.

"Often we consider a church and it's leaders a type of "safe haven", thinking in some form that it's off limits

to the devil. This is not the case. In fact, the devil does some of his best behind-the-scenes work within

churches." There is no devil. Having an imaginary friend is bad enough but why would you create an

imaginary enemy?

"I can only suggest that if you are ever in a situation where someone in a church tries to control you or your

actions with rules and regulations, then you should be questioning them and their motives." As a matter of

fact you are. That is why I question you and your motives. I look forward to your failure at defending your

statements.

July 11, 2015

Myself, I'm going to wait and see if Humble comes back to discuss before I spend anymore time on him.

July 11, 2015

Wow! Is this thread just a perfect example of how anger and hatred towards something just feeds upon itself?

Kind of like how you and your Christian brethren's hatred towards unbelievers fed upon itself to burn us at the stakes? How many people has your religion of hate murdered?

I never thought using evidence, critical thinking, and science would piss so many people off.

You want to make a difference on here, stop preaching from a book that has already been debunked and proven false, and show up with evidence and scientific facts to back your delusional claims.

Nice to see someone new on here, but geez, put up or shut up already.

-Catt

July 11, 2015

Humble, why don't you go learn a thing or two about evolution and cosmology from actual scientists, I recommend Cosmos and Your inner Fish on Netflix, then come back and tell us why we should believe your particular creation myth over scientific discovery.

July 11, 2015

Wow! Is this thread just a perfect example of how anger and hatred towards something just feeds upon itself?

Kind of like how you and your Christian brethren's hatred towards unbelievers fed upon itself to burn us at the stakes? How many people has your religion of hate murdered?

I never thought using evidence, critical thinking, and science would piss so many people off.

You want to make a difference on here, stop preaching from a book that has already been debunked and proven false, and show up with evidence and scientific facts to back your delusional claims.

Nice to see someone new on here, but geez, put up or shut up already.

-Catt

Projection is a tool often used by indoctrinated theists.

July 11, 2015

Wow! Is this thread just a perfect example of how anger and hatred towards something just feeds upon itself?

Cat, as you stated: "p.s. none of them exist anyways so....", so why all the energy and hatred directed at someone that doesn't exist? That would be like frequently ranting about Bugs Bunny or Micky Mouse. Quite pointless and a waste of time.

It seems that most every thread eventually devolves down the same rabbit hole. Everyone jumping like lemmings over the cliff, trying to see who can claim the best twisted truth and the last word in trashing God.

So much mental and emotional energy spent. So much time wasted formulating, in some cases, articulate arguments and replies. And all this simply to debunk a supposedly fictional and non-existant character? I don't think any of you are so foolish as to waste so much of your limited precious time remaining (for those who don't believe in any afterlife) arguing against a fictional character. Move on already. Go live your life the best you can. Based on your postings in this forum, I can assume it's working out wonderfully well for you. Or is it...?

But since I'm pretty sure that all of you will remain here to continue trashing God and His followers, I think that this suggests highly that you do in fact believe in God, and you know that Jesus died for all our sins. Ranting and raving, denying, twisting scripture, throwing temper tantrums, and name calling works brilliantly to mask the truth, but it cannot change the truth.

Now, I know your ready to battle, so let's get on with it. HBEtechnician posed the following question:

"Think of all the shit the devil has done to man, now think of all the shit bible God has done to man.

Christians who do you think wins the nice guy award."

Unfortunately, this question in itself is quite absurd, and I'm not sure what it exposes about the experience or knowledge of the O.P. regarding competent or caring leadership.

Whether in business, politics, or anywhere else, a strong, competent, successful leader does not worry about winning some "nice guy" award. He or she cares for the organization and people that they are responsible for. The best leaders will make decisions based on what will be good in the end for everyone. Often the people will grumble and complain because they lack facts or accurate information regarding the big picture.

God has already spelled out the "big picture" for all of us. It is in the Bible, particularely in the New Testament.

It's not that hard to wrap your mind around. Here it is in a nutshell:

God created the universe. He created beings with free will, desires, and other attributes, including Lucifer, who's desire eventually turned to envy. That envy grew to mistrust and hatred of God. This eventually led to Lucifer battling God, and being defeated. Lucifer was then cast down to the earth, where he is allowed to roam and rule for awhile.

(If God were so vengeful and hateful, don't you think that He would have just "poofed" Lucifer away. Eliminated Lucifer's soul and existance? How about Lucifer's army, 1/3 of the angels? Why not simply eliminate them? Eliminate the threat? Start over with fresh angels?)

So now God creates humans, with souls, desires, and the ability to both receive and give love. (Most people think of humans as "bodies with souls". The soul as secondary, but this is incorrect. We are actually "souls inhabiting bodies". The soul, and heart, is primary to God.)

Right from the start God warns us about Lucifer, who is now known as Satan (or the devil). That Satan has become evil, and roams the earth. We are warned of Satan's lies, deceipt, and trickery. It's easy to understand a growing threat when you can see it coming at you, but the limitations of our physical eyesite and other senses don't even allow us to see him, to see spirit beings or angels, thus the threat was not understood.

We are also warned that we will have a difficult time here on earth. We will endure pain, hardship, disease, hatred, and many other troubles. In other words "this place is going to suck!". But we need to persevere. We are only here for a very brief time out of our entire infinite lives.

(Our time on this sinful earth out of the length of our infinite lives, can be equated to the time it takes for a single quick refueling stop during a year-long vacation.)

So, Adam and Eve were fooled by Satan into mistrusting God's intentions for them, and made a bad decision based on misrepresented information. Or to put it simply, they were conned by a thief, and unkwowingly let sin, and the effects of it, into this world.

I can imagine God might have been thinking "Crap! The kids have screwed up the whole plan. Now how do I fix this?"

I personally don't think that God expected sin to have such devestating effects on us, His children. I see many posts in this forum either referring to, or quoting OT scripture to show Gods anger.

Why wouldn't He get angry? His children are well warned about all types of evil and temptations, yet they continually gravitate towards it. Then when things get really bad, they come running back to their father (God) for awhile, who forgives them and takes them in. Feeds and clothes them again. The next thing you know, they get complacent and bored, and go wandering away towards trouble, and sin, again.

A side-note:

My daughters have been well-warned against drugs and the high rate of addiction. If one of them now was seduced into a drug addiction, I would be royally p*ssed! Not because of her getting addicted. But because she chose to trust in the seductive lies of the drug more than she chose to trust in me, their father, who only has their best intentions at heart, and who told them only the truth.

Next I would be working to get her out of the addiction. There would be arguing and fights. There would be denying the truth. She would probably say that she hated me, that I'm too controlling, that I have too many rules. There would be a lot of pain for both of us. I would forgive her, even if she never forgave me. Maybe she would never speak to me again. That would be her choice. But I would go to extremes to help her find the right path again.

Now back in history, things are getting really screwed up. The Jews are misunderstanding God, and have created over 600 rules to follow. They believe that God is all about rules and regulations. If you're a Jew, you can hardly move without breaking one of their manmade rules.

But it's simply not true. Another lie cooked up by the devil, and successfully implanted into religion. We see this still today in many religions.

So God formulates a new plan. A new covenent, if you will. It is so clever and brilliant in that it both covers the debt of the blood sacrifice required for payment of sins, while not a single drop of blood needs to be shed by any person born of a human man and woman to pay that debt!

God decides that He Himself will pay the debt for His children's mistakes.

(Have any of you ever decided to pay for a mistake your child made? Why did you do it?)

So a part of God's soul or energy (pick your favorite term) is born on earth in the form of a human, in the person of Jesus. For all practical purposes, he is entirely human. He has the same experiences that all of us have. He has to learn everything down here, just as we do from the time we're babies.

The difference is that Jesus's heart and soul are more directly connected to God. (This is highly simplified, but you should get the point.)

Part of God's plan includes opening up salvation to the entire world's population. It is no longer just for the Jews, but for everyone, everywhere.

God, as Jesus, will take all human sin upon Himself, allow Himself to be insulted, whipped, beaten, scourged, and put to death. When He died on the cross, His soul was then forsaken by God in heaven for a short time, so He could "decend" to hell and complete His work of defeating Satan.

Jesus then rose 3 days later. It is well documented that He was seen by several hundred people. This gives us proof that there is life after what we call "death".

God's plan gave "debt paid-in-full" credit to all humans that died before Jesus's crucifixion, and will continue to give credit to all humans at their death. The covenent is for no human to ever have to pay for their sins. This is the default position. The offer is in place from the time you are born, but the credit is given when you die from this earth.

Take note that God does not look for ways to trip-you-up, or to create obstacles in your path. He does not create rules that will disqualify you.

A father does not pay the child's debt, just to turn around and offer the child the same temptation that caused the child's debt in the first place.

But be forwarned, that after the father offers to pay for the child's debt, if the child tells the father to get lost, he doesn't need his father's help, or if he tells his friends and family that he has no father, that his father never existed, then the truth is that the offer of debt forgiveness may be withdrawn.

You have all your sins forgiven from birth by default. There is nothing you can do to improve this position.

You can however, lose salvation by turning away from Jesus. Put simply, if you adopt the lie that Jesus did not die for your sins, then no one has yet paid for your sins. You are an adult. If you do not want Jesus to stand in for you as your surogate to atone for your sins, then you have every right to deny Him, and pay for your sins on your own. Ask any lawyer that tries his own defense, how that worked out for him. Only a fool does it.

So here we have it, God is continually, for all of history, trying to figure out why we're so obstinate and destructive in all aspects of our lives. Yet, He repeatedly forgives us, sacrifices for us, and tries to set us on the right path. Sure He gets p*ssed once in a while. Who would'nt? If the local gang-bangers were contantly trying to seduce your kids into their gang, wouldn't you do something about it?

As for Satan, just reading the various threads on this site exposes it all. The despair, anger, hatred, mistrust, envy. It says it all. This is all you get when you try to remove God from your life. Absolutely no hope or joy at all.

I do understand that many of you have had very bad personal experiences with church and religion. The stories are everywhere, and many within this forum. Please keep in mind that churches are filled with human people. There is not one that has not sinned many times. Churches, no matter the size, require some type of leadership. Being in this position can become an immense power trip. A very difficult temptation to stand up against.

Often we consider a church and it's leaders a type of "safe haven", thinking in some form that it's off limits to the devil. This is not the case. In fact, the devil does some of his best behind-the-scenes work within churches.

I am not criticizing churches. I belong to a fairly large one. I do not agree with eveything in the church I attend. I have had disagreements with church leaders. But the fellowship and close friendships I have forged there are priceless.

I can only suggest that if you are ever in a situation where someone in a church tries to control you or your actions with rules and regulations, then you should be questioning them and their motives.

And you just wasted a bunch of energy just by responding to this thread. But I would like to respond to a few of your points.

It is well documented that He was seen by several hundred people.

Actually, it's not and there are no historical records that provide that documentation. Please provide evidence outside of the Bible to refute your claim.

This gives us proof that there is life after what we call "death".

No it doesn't.

As for Satan, just reading the various threads on this site exposes it all. The despair, anger, hatred, mistrust, envy. It says it all. This is all you get when you try to remove God from your life. Absolutely no hope or joy at all.

You just proved your statement wrong because I'm feeling both hopeful and joyful. Being without a god doesn't make me a negative person.

July 12, 2015

Wow! Is this thread just a perfect example of how anger and hatred towards something just feeds upon itself?

1} Cat, as you stated: "p.s. none of them exist anyways so....", so why all the energy and hatred directed at someone that doesn't exist? That would be like frequently ranting about Bugs Bunny or Micky Mouse. Quite pointless and a waste of time.

It seems that most every thread eventually devolves down the same rabbit hole. Everyone jumping like lemmings over the cliff, trying to see who can claim the best twisted truth and the last word in trashing God.

2) So much mental and emotional energy spent. So much time wasted formulating, in some cases, articulate arguments and replies. And all this simply to debunk a supposedly fictional and non-existant character? I don't think any of you are so foolish as to waste so much of your limited precious time remaining (for those who don't believe in any afterlife) arguing against a fictional character. Move on already. Go live your life the best you can. Based on your postings in this forum, I can assume it's working out wonderfully well for you. Or is it...?

1A) That's stupid, there are plenty of fictional characters that I dislike and hate, plenty that I like and love, their fictional status doesn't bar them from eliciting an emotional response. I and many others happen to hate the character of Yahweh/God the father/Allah, mostly because we where deceived into believing he actually existed, and was going to send us to some sort of hell if we didn't believe without any evidence that he was really there.

Our anger is focused on the products of your religion that actually exist, less so on your god, though there is plenty of animosity towards that character too.

I do find enjoyment in blasphemy and dragging your imaginary friend turned god through the mud, it's fun, it's cathartic.

2A) Supposedly? All the evidence points to your god absolutely being a made up character in an ancient myth created by ignorant primitive goat herders that wanted some authority over the rest of their tribe. Show me one god that has any chance of being anything more than a figment of some humans imagination. Just one.

L. Ron Hubbard doesn't count.

The quality of my life or lack thereof has very little to do with why I'm here, to assume anything beyond "I like being here" is too much.

3) But since I'm pretty sure that all of you will remain here to continue trashing God and His followers, I think that this suggests highly that you do in fact believe in God, and you know that Jesus died for all our sins. Ranting and raving, denying, twisting scripture, throwing temper tantrums, and name calling works brilliantly to mask the truth, but it cannot change the truth.

4) Now, I know your ready to battle, so let's get on with it. HBEtechnician posed the following question:

"Think of all the shit the devil has done to man, now think of all the shit bible God has done to man.

Christians who do you think wins the nice guy award."

Unfortunately, this question in itself is quite absurd, and I'm not sure what it exposes about the experience or knowledge of the O.P. regarding competent or caring leadership.

Whether in business, politics, or anywhere else, a strong, competent, successful leader does not worry about winning some "nice guy" award. He or she cares for the organization and people that they are responsible for. The best leaders will make decisions based on what will be good in the end for everyone. Often the people will grumble and complain because they lack facts or accurate information regarding the big picture.

3A) No, we really don't believe in your small minded, puny, impotent, pathetic god. You're making another assumption, you should really stop that.

4A) Yeah, the problem is your god is supposed to have planned every single little thing out from before the beginning. He doesn't get to pass blame when everything is because of him. He doesn't get to be mad when things go perfectly to his plan.

5) God has already spelled out the "big picture" for all of us. It is in the Bible, particularely in the New Testament.

It's not that hard to wrap your mind around. Here it is in a nutshell:

God created the universe. He created beings with free will, desires, and other attributes, including Lucifer, who's desire eventually turned to envy. That envy grew to mistrust and hatred of God. This eventually led to Lucifer battling God, and being defeated. Lucifer was then cast down to the earth, where he is allowed to roam and rule for awhile.

(If God were so vengeful and hateful, don't you think that He would have just "poofed" Lucifer away. Eliminated Lucifer's soul and existance? How about Lucifer's army, 1/3 of the angels? Why not simply eliminate them? Eliminate the threat? Start over with fresh angels?)

6) So now God creates humans, with souls, desires, and the ability to both receive and give love. (Most people think of humans as "bodies with souls". The soul as secondary, but this is incorrect. We are actually "souls inhabiting bodies". The soul, and heart, is primary to God.)

Right from the start God warns us about Lucifer, who is now known as Satan (or the devil). That Satan has become evil, and roams the earth. We are warned of Satan's lies, deceipt, and trickery. It's easy to understand a growing threat when you can see it coming at you, but the limitations of our physical eyesite and other senses don't even allow us to see him, to see spirit beings or angels, thus the threat was not understood.

We are also warned that we will have a difficult time here on earth. We will endure pain, hardship, disease, hatred, and many other troubles. In other words "this place is going to suck!". But we need to persevere. We are only here for a very brief time out of our entire infinite lives.

(Our time on this sinful earth out of the length of our infinite lives, can be equated to the time it takes for a single quick refueling stop during a year-long vacation.)

5A) Hold right there, citation needed on the genesis creation account and pre-genesis celestial war between the angels and god.

God has spelled out nothing for anyone. The anonymous authors of the bible have made claims and assertions about things they could know absolutely nothing about, and things that where, without a reasonable doubt, just made up by humans.

And no, I would not expect a vengeful bloodthirsty totalitarian tyrant to let his enemies off so easy as to be poofed out of existence, he absolutely would come up with an eternal punishment for finite "crimes". The "love" of your god is akin to the love an abusive spouse has to his or her victim. Your god is disgusting.

And don't mistake this for me actually believing your god exists, I'm simply holding the temporary and conditional position that he does for the sake of argument. You might notice me going back and forth through this post, just so you aren't confused, I'm a hard atheist, I believe every god myth known to man is just that, a man made myth.

I'm not unwilling to change my mind, I'm just unwilling to change my mind for anything less than 100% irrefutable proof, and you probably cannot provide that.

6A) Citation needed. And no, your bible is the claim, not the proof.

Blah blah blah, more baseless assertions, bad spelling, blah blah blah blah...

What's more likely? All this supernatural bullshit being real, and somehow you happen to have been born into the correct branch of a specific cult that just happened to be what your parents believed too? Or it's all bullshit and there is so much beyond the pathetic beliefs you hold so dear?

Also, you're doing more of that assumption thing, and also assertions are not convincing tools of persuasion...

7 ) So, Adam and Eve were fooled by Satan into mistrusting God's intentions for them, and made a bad decision based on misrepresented information. Or to put it simply, they were conned by a thief, and unkwowingly let sin, and the effects of it, into this world.

I can imagine God might have been thinking "Crap! The kids have screwed up the whole plan. Now how do I fix this?"

Eight ) I personally don't think that God expected sin to have such devestating effects on us, His children. I see many posts in this forum either referring to, or quoting OT scripture to show Gods anger.

Why wouldn't He get angry? His children are well warned about all types of evil and temptations, yet they continually gravitate towards it. Then when things get really bad, they come running back to their father (God) for awhile, who forgives them and takes them in. Feeds and clothes them again. The next thing you know, they get complacent and bored, and go wandering away towards trouble, and sin, again.

7A) Citation needed.

Adam and eve where set up to fail by your god, your god knew exactly what would happen, yet he still gets furious when exactly what he planned on happening, happens. Are you really not getting this?

Eight A) Isn't your god supposed to be omniscient?

Your god, according to your favored myths, created every single thing exactly as he wanted it to be down to the smallest detail, he knew exactly how everything would play out in advance. How do you reconcile that with what you said? How can you claim god didn't know something? He supposedly has a personal list of every sin everyone has and will ever commit from the beginning of time to the end, yet somehow he is surprised when we do exactly what he made us to do, and gets mad at us and punishes us for it?

I say again, your god is a classic abuser archetype.

9) A side-note:

My daughters have been well-warned against drugs and the high rate of addiction. If one of them now was seduced into a drug addiction, I would be royally p*ssed! Not because of her getting addicted. But because she chose to trust in the seductive lies of the drug more than she chose to trust in me, their father, who only has their best intentions at heart, and who told them only the truth.

Next I would be working to get her out of the addiction. There would be arguing and fights. There would be denying the truth. She would probably say that she hated me, that I'm too controlling, that I have too many rules. There would be a lot of pain for both of us. I would forgive her, even if she never forgave me. Maybe she would never speak to me again. That would be her choice. But I would go to extremes to help her find the right path again.

10) Now back in history, things are getting really screwed up. The Jews are misunderstanding God, and have created over 600 rules to follow. They believe that God is all about rules and regulations. If you're a Jew, you can hardly move without breaking one of their manmade rules.

But it's simply not true. Another lie cooked up by the devil, and successfully implanted into religion. We see this still today in many religions.

9A) Except for the whole god thing, you've perpetuated a lie with that.

Then after she had a bit of the rebel experience you would drag her back to your house, shackle her to a wall in your basement, and torture her to within an inch of her life only to nurse her back to some semblance of health, then torture her to near death again, over and over again until she actually dies. Because you love her soooo much. Right?

Cause that's the model your god has supposedly set up. Only there is no escape of death when you're in hell.

Now, how exactly do you want to explain why that's not abusive?

10A) There is no reason to believe the bible is in any way a reliable historical account, especially when it cites worldwide floods that there is no evidence for or physical possibility of, or mass exoduses of escaped Jewish slaves that there is no physical evidence of, no record of, ever having been in Egypt.

The devil, much like your god, doesn't exist. it's a fictional construct used to scare people into not trusting anything that doesn't come from approved authority figures. Ever notice how atheists never have issues with demonic activity or possession and whatnot? Yeah...

11) So God formulates a new plan. A new covenent, if you will. It is so clever and brilliant in that it both covers the debt of the blood sacrifice required for payment of sins, while not a single drop of blood needs to be shed by any person born of a human man and woman to pay that debt!

God decides that He Himself will pay the debt for His children's mistakes.

(Have any of you ever decided to pay for a mistake your child made? Why did you do it?)

11A) Yeah, I like to rape little girls and get them pregnant with myself so I can be born and sacrifice my son-self to my father-self to appease myself of the things I've made my creation do exactly to my plan. It's my favorite pastime.

But, why exactly, does the most powerful being in existence need some bullshit "sacrifice" to forgive us for doing nothing more or less than exactly what he has made us to do? Why do we hold any responsibility for the things god has forced us to do under his narrative? That smells like bullshit to me.

So a part of God's soul or energy (pick your favorite term) is born on earth in the form of a human, in the person of Jesus. For all practical purposes, he is entirely human. He has the same experiences that all of us have. He has to learn everything down here, just as we do from the time we're babies.

The difference is that Jesus's heart and soul are more directly connected to God. (This is highly simplified, but you should get the point.)

Part of God's plan includes opening up salvation to the entire world's population. It is no longer just for the Jews, but for everyone, everywhere.

God, as Jesus, will take all human sin upon Himself, allow Himself to be insulted, whipped, beaten, scourged, and put to death. When He died on the cross, His soul was then forsaken by God in heaven for a short time, so He could "decend" to hell and complete His work of defeating Satan.

Jesus then rose 3 days later. It is well documented that He was seen by several hundred people. This gives us proof that there is life after what we call "death".

God's plan gave "debt paid-in-full" credit to all humans that died before Jesus's crucifixion, and will continue to give credit to all humans at their death. The covenent is for no human to ever have to pay for their sins. This is the default position. The offer is in place from the time you are born, but the credit is given when you die from this earth.

Take note that God does not look for ways to trip-you-up, or to create obstacles in your path. He does not create rules that will disqualify you.

A father does not pay the child's debt, just to turn around and offer the child the same temptation that caused the child's debt in the first place.

But be forwarned, that after the father offers to pay for the child's debt, if the child tells the father to get lost, he doesn't need his father's help, or if he tells his friends and family that he has no father, that his father never existed, then the truth is that the offer of debt forgiveness may be withdrawn.

You have all your sins forgiven from birth by default. There is nothing you can do to improve this position.

You can however, lose salvation by turning away from Jesus. Put simply, if you adopt the lie that Jesus did not die for your sins, then no one has yet paid for your sins. You are an adult. If you do not want Jesus to stand in for you as your surogate to atone for your sins, then you have every right to deny Him, and pay for your sins on your own. Ask any lawyer that tries his own defense, how that worked out for him. Only a fool does it.

So here we have it, God is continually, for all of history, trying to figure out why we're so obstinate and destructive in all aspects of our lives. Yet, He repeatedly forgives us, sacrifices for us, and tries to set us on the right path. Sure He gets p*ssed once in a while. Who would'nt? If the local gang-bangers were contantly trying to seduce your kids into their gang, wouldn't you do something about it?

As for Satan, just reading the various threads on this site exposes it all. The despair, anger, hatred, mistrust, envy. It says it all. This is all you get when you try to remove God from your life. Absolutely no hope or joy at all.

From what I understand, Jews don't believe in salvation, they only believe in following the will of god. They have no paradise or hell, they have no concept of reward beyond this life, to them we all end up in the same place located in a cave below Canaan called sheol, think abyss or void, no fire and brimstone, no punishment or reward, no nothing.

It's from when the earth was flat and submerged beneath the heavenly ocean, when the sky was solid and everything revolved around earth in the solid sky-dome that was just above the clouds.

I do understand that many of you have had very bad personal experiences with church and religion. The stories are everywhere, and many within this forum. Please keep in mind that churches are filled with human people. There is not one that has not sinned many times. Churches, no matter the size, require some type of leadership. Being in this position can become an immense power trip. A very difficult temptation to stand up against.

Often we consider a church and it's leaders a type of "safe haven", thinking in some form that it's off limits to the devil. This is not the case. In fact, the devil does some of his best behind-the-scenes work within churches.

I am not criticizing churches. I belong to a fairly large one. I do not agree with eveything in the church I attend. I have had disagreements with church leaders. But the fellowship and close friendships I have forged there are priceless.

I can only suggest that if you are ever in a situation where someone in a church tries to control you or your actions with rules and regulations, then you should be questioning t

So God formulates a new plan. A new covenent, if you will. It is so clever and brilliant in that it both covers the debt of the blood sacrifice required for payment of sins, while not a single drop of blood needs to be shed by any person born of a human man and woman to pay that debt!

God decides that He Himself will pay the debt for His children's mistakes.

(Have any of you ever decided to pay for a mistake your child made? Why did you do it?)

So a part of God's soul or energy (pick your favorite term) is born on earth in the form of a human, in the person of Jesus. For all practical purposes, he is entirely human. He has the same experiences that all of us have. He has to learn everything down here, just as we do from the time we're babies.

The difference is that Jesus's heart and soul are more directly connected to God. (This is highly simplified, but you should get the point.)

Part of God's plan includes opening up salvation to the entire world's population. It is no longer just for the Jews, but for everyone, everywhere.

God, as Jesus, will take all human sin upon Himself, allow Himself to be insulted, whipped, beaten, scourged, and put to death. When He died on the cross, His soul was then forsaken by God in heaven for a short time, so He could "decend" to hell and complete His work of defeating Satan.

Jesus then rose 3 days later. It is well documented that He was seen by several hundred people. This gives us proof that there is life after what we call "death".

God's plan gave "debt paid-in-full" credit to all humans that died before Jesus's crucifixion, and will continue to give credit to all humans at their death. The covenent is for no human to ever have to pay for their sins. This is the default position. The offer is in place from the time you are born, but the credit is given when you die from this earth.

Take note that God does not look for ways to trip-you-up, or to create obstacles in your path. He does not create rules that will disqualify you.

A father does not pay the child's debt, just to turn around and offer the child the same temptation that caused the child's debt in the first place.

But be forwarned, that after the father offers to pay for the child's debt, if the child tells the father to get lost, he doesn't need his father's help, or if he tells his friends and family that he has no father, that his father never existed, then the truth is that the offer of debt forgiveness may be withdrawn.

You have all your sins forgiven from birth by default. There is nothing you can do to improve this position.

You can however, lose salvation by turning away from Jesus. Put simply, if you adopt the lie that Jesus did not die for your sins, then no one has yet paid for your sins. You are an adult. If you do not want Jesus to stand in for you as your surogate to atone for your sins, then you have every right to deny Him, and pay for your sins on your own. Ask any lawyer that tries his own defense, how that worked out for him. Only a fool does it.

So here we have it, God is continually, for all of history, trying to figure out why we're so obstinate and destructive in all aspects of our lives. Yet, He repeatedly forgives us, sacrifices for us, and tries to set us on the right path. Sure He gets p*ssed once in a while. Who would'nt? If the local gang-bangers were contantly trying to seduce your kids into their gang, wouldn't you do something about it?

As for Satan, just reading the various threads on this site exposes it all. The despair, anger, hatred, mistrust, envy. It says it all. This is all you get when you try to remove God from your life. Absolutely no hope or joy at all.

I do understand that many of you have had very bad personal experiences with church and religion. The stories are everywhere, and many within this forum. Please keep in mind that churches are filled with human people. There is not one that has not sinned many times. Churches, no matter the size, require some type of leadership. Being in this position can become an immense power trip. A very difficult temptation to stand up against.

Often we consider a church and it's leaders a type of "safe haven", thinking in some form that it's off limits to the devil. This is not the case. In fact, the devil does some of his best behind-the-scenes work within churches.

I am not criticizing churches. I belong to a fairly large one. I do not agree with eveything in the church I attend. I have had disagreements with church leaders. But the fellowship and close friendships I have forged there are priceless.

I can only suggest that if you are ever in a situation where someone in a church tries to control you or your actions with rules and regulations, then you should be questioning them and their motives.

Okay, I'm done with the point by point, it's just too long winded for me to care, and I ran into a quote box limit...

You assume there is some sort of debt owed, first you have to prove that to be the case, and I'm sorry but making some weak, or even strong if you can manage it, argument isn't going to convince me of something so absurd. You are going to have to drag your god out in front of me and have it prove beyond a shadow of an unreasonable doubt it really is what you claim it to be. I'm beyond your attempts to persuade. And yes, I do seriously want your all powerful god to beg for my belief. No, I do not find this unreasonable.

You assume there is some sort of salvation that is necessary for us, again, drag god out into the light and I'll reconsider my position. Otherwise you're out of luck when it comes to persuasion.

No, your myths and legends make the assertion that all this bullshit you believe is in some way true. There is no reason to believe it's anything more than myth and legend. There wasn't anyone by the name of Jesus in ancient roman occupied Canaan, and certainly not one executed for being a prophet. At most Jesus is a composite character pieced together from "prophets" that would probably be considered schizophrenic by today's standard, maybe some of them where executed, I have no idea. But none of them where actually your god. At the least he is a fabricated character created by the cult that claims to worship him, dieing and rising gods where kind of a fad around the time, if I remember correctly.

Satan does not exist, I should know, I've attempted to contact him. And guess what, nothing happened. Funny, huh?

This isn't an issue of bad churches, this is an issue of refusing to believe in ancient bullshit myths instead of, oh I don't know, real fucking science. evolution disproves the Adam and Lilith/unnamed/eve narrative. Cosmology and physics in general disproves the young earth model, right out of the gate your book is proven to be fallible, right out the gate your holy text is proven to be absolutely wrong about everything concerning the origins of our universe and world. If the infallible book is so wrong about every scientifically testable claim it makes, why should anyone believe it holds any water on the things that cannot be tested scientifically? Because you had a warm fuzzy one time that made you really really sure god was really really there? Because Satan is deceiving everyone but you? Yeah, that's not convincing to me.

And, I'm not usually one to throw around the TL:DR thing, but would you mind being a little more conservative on the word count in the future? This was a serious pain to sort through. Breaking it up into multiple posts probably won't draw any flak from anyone... Half way through I was too committed to stop...

Demon sultan Azathoth is so much more badass than your puny Yahweh, it's not even funny. May Hastur not murder you for reading his name, and may Nyarlathotep reveal the dark nightmarish truth to you.

IA! Hydra! IA! Dagan! IA! Cthulhu!

Ph'nglui mglw'nath Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn! Yog-Sothoth be praised! For he knows the day of Dread Lord Cthulhu's awakening!

I honestly believe your god is just as real as the gods of Lovecraft's works. And that is to say, not at all.

Yeah, I know, probably a waste of time, but whatever. Fresh meat and all that.

July 12, 2015

Catt,

In #19 you state that there is no God: "...imaginary deity that doesn't exist?"

Then in #23 you state: "Wrong, he did not create free will. Romans 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works (free will), but of him that calleth;)"

No surprise here. An athiest will usually come through in taking a quote out of context. This statement has absolutely nothing to do with whether we are given free will. But I am sure that you knew this, or you would have quoted the entire paragraph to include the proper context. In the entirety of Romans 9 the apostle Paul is pointing out to the Jewish people that God, as creator of all things, is free to offer saving grace to the Gentiles if He so chooses. It is also pointed out that being Jewish does not make you an automatic heir to the kingdom of God. It is the believer, whether Jew or Gentile, that is saved and made an heir to the kingdom. Romans 9 is also where the concept of God's "election" comes from. It is frequently misconstrued in arguments, both intentionally and unintentionally, as God doing some sort of cherry-picking. It's just not true.

Then in #23 you claim there is: "No free will."
So which is it? No free will means you are being controlled by something. No God, or no free will?

And also in #23: "Dude if your going to come in here and talk shit to me, at least know your bible and what it says. Everything you said in your post is not biblical."

Of course my post is biblical. All of it is. I've been down this road before with non-believers. Athiests read the text and know the words and passages of the Christian Bible better than most, but you have little to no understanding of it. What you believe are facts for your arguments, are usually nothing at all, because you rarely understand the context correctly. All book smarts and no street smarts. It's like "Dude, you don't know what you don't know."

mymistake, in #22 you state:

"Don't give us the "complete the law" run around. You need to come up with a logical explanation for why a God of

love and justice would create the barbaric laws of the Old Testament and enforce them on pain of death

for around a thousand years."

So, telling His children to not kill each other, not to commit adultery, not to steal, etc. is a barbaric law? Do you let your kids run rampant in your own household?

And God did not "enforce them on pain of death". Sheesh, how dramatic!

As you well know, the Jews wanted to know what constituted a sin, and the 10 commandments were given to show that all people are guilty of having commited sins. This was done to show the Jews that they needed a saviour. (Unless they wanted to try paying for their own sins on judgement day.)

mymistake: you also stated:

"I know you directed this to Catt but let me point out that you missed a vital difference. Nobody is telling you

how you need to live your life based on the teaching of Bugs Bunny or Micky Mouse."

I thought this might be pointed out. The problem is...it is religion that tries to tell us how we should live our lives. It is humans that have put those rules into religion, to grab power and to control people.

It was one of the reasons that Jesus was born on earth when He was. To start correcting the misunderstanding of the people, and the corruption of the church at that time. Jesus came to set the record straight. To show people they did not need to follow the hundreds of rules put into place by the religious leadership. Today, it seems that many (if not most) churches are heading back in that old direction.

sdelsolray states in #24:

"Fresh meat. But unfortunately, he appears to be another dime-a-dozen indoctrination Christian, full of mere assertions of his particular religious dogma and likely versed in standard Christian Apologetics with their attendant logical fallacies, factual lies and misrepresentations and holier-than-thou hubris."

Lol. That's an awful lot of words for saying absolutely nothing. Actually, I was "indoctrinated", to use your term, very intensely and directly by the Holy Spirit 20-some years ago. It scared the crap outta me. And no, I am not versed in any Christian Apologetics.

"I would not be surprised if this one doesn't last long around here, of his own choosing of course."

Well duh, captain obvious. Why would I hang around a long time where I'm not wanted?

I'm just here for some fun. I have nothing to prove to anyone here. I'll respond to a few challenges. Try to keep this interesting. I really don't care what you believe. That will be your problem with God. Not mine.

Catt, in #25 posted: "Remember, the burden of proof lies on you, not me."

This is classic. I don't think I've ever read an unbeliever that didn't toss out this line at some point in a discussion.

Actually, you are the one in the minority position trying to change minds and beliefs in society. The burden of proof does in fact lie on you.

mymistake, in #27: "Nowhere else in life does believing something accomplish anything at all."

Come on now, do you people just regurgitate quotes that have worked for you at other times?

Nothing in life is ever accomplished without first believing it can be done.

Catt, in #29: "Kind of like how you and your Christian brethren's hatred towards unbelievers fed upon itself to burn us at the stakes? How many people has your religion of hate murdered?"

Wow, Catt. I'm very sorry if you think my posts are exuding hatred. I don't know how that could be. I don't have any hatred. My sincere apologies.

As for my Christian brethren, I don't think (but I could be wrong) that any of them were living yet back when stake-burning was going on. I certainly know that I was not around. I would have remembered that particularly sad episode in Christian religion history.

And for what it's worth, I don't consider myself belonging to any religion. I am a follower of Jesus Christ, and of His original teachings, which came to be known in that time as "The Way".

TheOutsider, in #30: "...why we should believe your particular creation myth over scientific discovery."

I don't care if you believe me or not. I'm not here to change your minds. It's not my job. But perhaps you should consider this: Actual human knowledge is almost non-existant regarding our own world around us, much less what is in deep space. The fact that there are so many new advancements year-after-year in technology, medicine, bio-chemistry, genetics, and other areas suggests that we are still only scratching the surface. Most of these advancements are made with our ability to be very close hands-on to the developments being worked on.

And yet, many people put there trust in flawed human theories and hypothesis about the cosmos. We know virtually nothing. All our knowledge is from photographs and videos. And all from a single perspective or point-source (the earth). Without any doubt, we will continue to find that scientific discovery frequently gets it wrong.

July 12, 2015

<Snip>

TheOutsider, in #30: "...why we should believe your particular creation myth over scientific discovery."

I don't care if you believe me or not. I'm not here to change your minds. It's not my job. But perhaps you should consider this: Actual human knowledge is almost non-existant regarding our own world around us, much less what is in deep space. The fact that there are so many new advancements year-after-year in technology, medicine, bio-chemistry, genetics, and other areas suggests that we are still only scratching the surface. Most of these advancements are made with our ability to be very close hands-on to the developments being worked on.

And yet, many people put there trust in flawed human theories and hypothesis about the cosmos. We know virtually nothing. All our knowledge is from photographs and videos. And all from a single perspective or point-source (the earth). Without any doubt, we will continue to find that scientific discovery frequently gets it wrong.

I agree, human knowledge is just barely scratching the surface, and there are things that we have no better explanation for as of yet, that doesn't mean primitive humans somehow had a better idea of what was going on for really real, if anything that means they had a worse idea of what was going on. See flat earth, geocentrism, other debunked "theories" that used to be considered gospel, literally.

Science isn't a source of all the answers to everything, it's a method of finding the answers through unbiased as possible testing and recording, and that's a bit oversimplified. We don't know everything, of course we are still learning new things, making new discoveries, some of which may overturn current theoretical models if they provide enough reason to be used instead. But there is a hell of a lot more to current cosmological models than just pictures and videos, though that's really beyond my range of knowledge, others far more knowledgeable than I can go into more detail. There is even a thread in the arena covering some of the basics if you are interested.

And if you're not here to change our minds, then why did you make a post clearly intended to change... Someones... Mind...? The arguments seem like persuasion is the intent, maybe I'm misunderstanding...? Either way, my posts are for those lurking, it's nothing personal, I just feel I should do what I can to oppose unreasonable beliefs here. The catharsis is a bonus.

July 12, 2015

Humble:

Exodus 22:18-19 "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live. Whosoever lieth with a beast shall surely be put to death."

Exodus 31:14 "Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people."

Lev 20:9 "For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him."

Lev 21:9 "And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire."

Numbers 15

32 And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.

33 And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.

34 And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.

35 And the Lord said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.

36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses.

The Old Testament was the original ISIS. Do you believe these parts of the Bible are wrong? I wasn't being dramatic. Early Christians took responsibility for this stuff when they signed up with the Old Testament. You have a God who created these laws and left them in place for centuries. That means if your God is real then your God forced people to live and die this way.

I thought this might be pointed out. The problem is...it is religion that tries to tell us how we should live our lives. It is humans that have put those rules into religion, to grab power and to control people.

It was one of the reasons that Jesus was born on earth when He was. To start correcting the misunderstanding of the people, and the corruption of the church at that time. Jesus came to set the record straight. To show people they did not need to follow the hundreds of rules put into place by the religious leadership. Today, it seems that many (if not most) churches are heading back in that old direction.

That is exactly what you are doing right now. You are a human trying to use religion the tell people how to live their lives. You use the concept of Jesus as a tool to bash others over the head. You don't care that Christ is imaginary. You are going to use the idea anyway. There is no evidence that Jesus came at all. It doesn't make any sense that Jesus would come and leave no evidence at all and then expect people to believe religious stories that were spread by humans using religion to control others.

Nothing in life is ever accomplished without first believing it can be done.

That is not true. Many discoveries we have made were complete accidents. We had no idea something was possible and it happened by chance. But you ignore my point. God would gain nothing by us having an idea. Believing a belief doesn't give God any benefit. You can't pay somebody by having a belief. Holding a belief doesn't change anything else in the world. So it doesn't make any sense that God would give us a vast reward if we agree to have a belief nor for God to punish us forever for not having a belief. It's crazy. Beliefs don't even work that way. A genuine belief comes because you find an idea to have merit. It can't be forced by threats. But this makes perfect sense if Christianity is a scam because the way to benefit the scam leaders is to get a lot of people to accept the scam.

July 12, 2015

Catt,

In #19 you state that there is no God: "...imaginary deity that doesn't exist?"

Then in #23 you state: "Wrong, he did not create free will. Romans 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works (free will), but of him that calleth;)"

No surprise here. An athiest will usually come through in taking a quote out of context. This statement has absolutely nothing to do with whether we are given free will. But I am sure that you knew this, or you would have quoted the entire paragraph to include the proper context. In the entirety of Romans 9 the apostle Paul is pointing out to the Jewish people that God, as creator of all things, is free to offer saving grace to the Gentiles if He so chooses. It is also pointed out that being Jewish does not make you an automatic heir to the kingdom of God. It is the believer, whether Jew or Gentile, that is saved and made an heir to the kingdom. Romans 9 is also where the concept of God's "election" comes from. It is frequently misconstrued in arguments, both intentionally and unintentionally, as God doing some sort of cherry-picking. It's just not true.

Then in #23 you claim there is: "No free will."

So which is it? No free will means you are being controlled by something. No God, or no free will?

And also in #23: "Dude if your going to come in here and talk shit to me, at least know your bible and what it says. Everything you said in your post is not biblical."

Of course my post is biblical. All of it is. I've been down this road before with non-believers. Athiests read the text and know the words and passages of the Christian Bible better than most, but you have little to no understanding of it. What you believe are facts for your arguments, are usually nothing at all, because you rarely understand the context correctly. All book smarts and no street smarts. It's like "Dude, you don't know what you don't know."

Your wrong again. Your thinking of romans 11, not romans 9.

July 12, 2015

Athiests read the text and know the words and passages of the Christian Bible better than most, but you have little to no understanding of it. What you believe are facts for your arguments, are usually nothing at all, because you rarely understand the context correctly. All book smarts and no street smarts. It's like "Dude, you don't know what you don't know."

Very funny. So during the 30+ years that I was a Christian and the Holy Spirit was dwelling in my I had

divinely inspired understanding of the Bible but the moment I realize it was a delusion all this information

magicaly leaves my head and evaporates leaving me without understanding of the Bible? Actually it is

the ex-Christians who understand the Bible better. We know what it is like to believe on the inside and

also what it is like to wake up and look at the Bible with an objective perspective.

July 12, 2015

1. It's not that hard to wrap your mind around.

2. God created the universe.

3. He created beings with free will.

4. So now God creates humans, with souls, desires,

5. Right from the start God warns us about Lucifer.

6. So, Adam and Eve were fooled by Satan into mistrusting God's intentions for them,

7. I personally don't think that God expected sin to have such devestating effects on us,

8. (Have any of you ever decided to pay for a mistake your child made? Why did you do it?)

9. Take note that God does not look for ways to trip-you-up, or to create obstacles in your path.

10.You have all your sins forgiven from birth by default.

11. There is nothing you can do to improve this position.

12. As for Satan, just reading the various threads on this site exposes it all. The despair, anger, hatred, mistrust, envy. It says it all. This is all you get when you try to remove God from your life. Absolutely no hope or joy at all.

1. Oh yeah? Is that why your entire post in biblically incorrect?

2. I asked you for evidence outside the bible that god created the universe. You didn't give me any. Typical when I deal with believers. I ask for evidence and they skirt the issue.

3. No he didn't. (sigh) here AGAIN is more proof. Matthew 15:13 - But he answered and said every plant which my father has not planted (no free will), shall be rooted up. - he is speaking of election here and gods choice in salvation, not mans. the plants are representations of man, rooted up mean taken out of the earth for judgment. Again when I deal with believers, it is common when faced with scripture that contradicts their belief, I am told that i am taking out of context. Sorry, my education in bible theology trumps yours kid.

4. So if god create people with desires, then why does he send them to hell for following those desires? Eccl. 11:9

5. No he doesn't warn us right from the start. Where does it say that. Please give me the verse in genesis 3 where god warns adam and eve about the serpent. (Hint, it isn't there.) Your making things up guy. Your lying, and all liars will have their part in the lake of fire.

6. What were god's intentions again for them by placing the tree in the garden in the first place. If god is good and had their best interests at heart, then why would god put the tree there in the first place at all?

7. What you personally believe doesn't matter. God knew EXACLTY what was going to happen. Remember god knows the end from the beginning.

8. No, because a parent knows a child is fallible and simply forgives the child with having to pay for anything.

9. Then why did he put the tree in the garden if he didn't want them to get tripped up. Why does god continue to test people if he doesn't want them to get tripped up. (you really need to read your bible.)

10. Where are you getting this nonsense from? This is not biblical. The bible clearly states that humans are born speaking lies and go astray as soon as they are born. They are conceived in sin. Where in the bible does it say our sins are forgiven at birth by default? I want chapter and verse.

11. According to you i can improve this position, i have free will....remember?

12. Wrong again sweetie. What your reading on this website are people cathartically releasing the psychological damage your death cult has incurred on them. Satan didn't cause this, your imaginary god did.

July 12, 2015

Catt, in #25 posted: "Remember, the burden of proof lies on you, not me."

Actually, you are the one in the minority position trying to change minds and beliefs in society. The burden of proof does in fact lie on you.

Wrong again. 2 billion people claim to Christians.

5 billion do not. Therefor you are in the minority here.

You are in the minority position here not me. This is because you are making claims that the Christian god exists and that everything in the bible is true. I am not making these claims you are. So yes, the burden of proof lies with you.

Nice try though. Classic indeed.

July 12, 2015

Catt, in #25 posted: "Remember, the burden of proof lies on you, not me."

Actually, you are the one in the minority position trying to change minds and beliefs in society. The burden of proof does in fact lie on you.

Wrong again. 2 billion people claim to Christians.

5 billion do not. Therefor you are in the minority here.

You are in the minority position here not me. This is because you are making claims that the Christian god exists and that everything in the bible is true. I am not making these claims you are. So yes, the burden of proof lies with you.

Nice try though. Classic indeed.

Minority isn't even an issue. The burden of proof is with the believer because the believer is the one who

claims there is a magical, invisible man who wants us to believe all these things but never bothers to show

up and tell us himself. The ones asserting the claim are the ones who need to support that claim. Doesn't

matter if there are a billion believers or 100 billion. Making the claim creates the burden of proof.

July 12, 2015

Now, please provide evidence outside the bible that god exists. Also please provide evidence outside the bible that Christianity is true.

**BUMPED**

This is where I am going to stop. I have asked you for evidence, and like all other "believers" you provide nothing.

You, like all other Christians are predictable. Instead of providing evidence I always get: your taking things out of context, you just hate god, you just love your sins blah blah blah.

I am going to tell you right now that rambling answers and smart ass put downs don't work with me, my skins too thick. It just shows that you have no evidence to back your claims. It makes you look foolish.

If you cannot provide evidence then we have nothing left to talk about.

I am only interested in the proof you have outside the bible as to the validity of your beliefs. If you cannot provide them, then don't reply back. Thank you. -Catt

July 12, 2015

Since i am all about evidence and all, and since you think satan is the real killer of man and not god, i'll leave you with this little ditty.

Your god through out the entire bible orders the mass murder of men, women, children and pregnant women. From cover to cover of god's murder manifesto the bible, the pages are dripping with the blood of gods victims. God also commands the men to take the virgin women for themselves for their sexual pleasure.

Hosea 13:16 -

they shall fall by the sword:

their infants shall be dashed in pieces,

and their women with child shall be ripped up.

The god you claim to serve is a disgusting, brutally ultra violent god who orders mass murderer of innocent people, who orders rape, condones slavery, and creates a place called hell to throw innocent people into, and you have the stupidity to ask why i rail on this worthless garbage you call a loving god. Even jesus admits that god murders people and throws them into hell. If you really serve this god, what does that say about you?

Then again, none of these people exist so....

July 12, 2015

...

sdelsolray states in #24:

"Fresh meat. But unfortunately, he appears to be another dime-a-dozen indoctrination Christian, full of mere assertions of his particular religious dogma and likely versed in standard Christian Apologetics with their attendant logical fallacies, factual lies and misrepresentations and holier-than-thou hubris."

Lol. That's an awful lot of words for saying absolutely nothing. Actually, I was "indoctrinated", to use your term, very intensely and directly by the Holy Spirit 20-some years ago. It scared the crap outta me. And no, I am not versed in any Christian Apologetics.

"I would not be surprised if this one doesn't last long around here, of his own choosing of course."

Well duh, captain obvious. Why would I hang around a long time where I'm not wanted?

I'm just here for some fun. I have nothing to prove to anyone here. I'll respond to a few challenges. Try to keep this interesting. I really don't care what you believe. That will be your problem with God. Not mine.

...

Then why did you respond to "absolutely nothing" (your words)? By indoctrination, I mean the near certainty that your were regularly exposed to, brainwashed with and/or emotionally and psychologically abused by by trusted adults as a child, teenager and young adult with incessant religious dogma, probably including parents, aunts, uncles, grandparents, siblings, church leaders, and/or other peers. Your magic moment with the Holy Spirit was simply a cummulation of that earlier indoctrination. You were likely convinced/instructed/threatened to project your own internal religious thoughts onto an imaginary external sky fairy. And, yes, the fear you felt was instilled by those trusted adults. That, and claiming to have a special friend with secret knowledge allows you to claim a special frame of reference and helps feed the hubris/sanctimony defense mechanism you employ.

Of course you are versed in Christian Apologetics. You've already used them in your two posts so far. More will be forthcoming, no doubt. You have already racked up at least two dozen mere assertions, a few other logical fallacies and a few misrepresentations, all with underpinnings of sanctimony. Yes, you are truly Humble.

My predictions are turning out quite correct. You're a dime-a-dozen indoctrinated Christian, complete with apologetics common to your particular sub-cult of Christianity. You don't (and won't) do evidence or rational thinking.

Many here, myself included, are often quite entertained when theists such as yourself come here and demonstrate nonsense, PRATTs and other irrational thinking. Oh, and by the way, the "[t]hat will be your problem with God" (again, your words) is cute. Holier-than-thou Christians like you just have to get their 'My God will punish you for not believing as I do' line in there somewhere. You were no doubt exposed to that threat thousands of times, and you feel a need to project it upon others.

...

Catt, in #25 posted: "Remember, the burden of proof lies on you, not me."

This is classic. I don't think I've ever read an unbeliever that didn't toss out this line at some point in a discussion.

Actually, you are the one in the minority position trying to change minds and beliefs in society. The burden of proof does in fact lie on you.

...

You have made over two dozen positive mere assertions so far. Catt has asked you for evidence to support those mere assertions. You have not. It's not surprising that every "unbeliever" calls you on the burden of proof. No doubt, you consistently fail to use rational thinking with regards to your unsupported religious claims. You next claim you do not have a burden of proof built on a misplaced argument from popularity fallacy. At the risk of creating a false dichotomy, you either (i) truly do not understand what the burden of proof is in rational discourse, or (ii) know what it is but attempt to avoid its application with disingenuousness. That makes you either ignorant or duplicitous.

...

TheOutsider, in #30: "...why we should believe your particular creation myth over scientific discovery."

I don't care if you believe me or not. I'm not here to change your minds. It's not my job. But perhaps you should consider this: Actual human knowledge is almost non-existant regarding our own world around us, much less what is in deep space. The fact that there are so many new advancements year-after-year in technology, medicine, bio-chemistry, genetics, and other areas suggests that we are still only scratching the surface. Most of these advancements are made with our ability to be very close hands-on to the developments being worked on.

And yet, many people put there trust in flawed human theories and hypothesis about the cosmos. We know virtually nothing. All our knowledge is from photographs and videos. And all from a single perspective or point-source (the earth). Without any doubt, we will continue to find that scientific discovery frequently gets it wrong.

Ah yes, the anti-science/anti-humanist canard. That must feed your cognitive dissonance, so it's quite expected.

July 12, 2015

Actually, I was "indoctrinated", to use your term, very intensely and directly by the Holy Spirit 20-some years ago.

I just noticed this. You were taught scripture 20 years ago by a ghost? Now I know what type of person I am dealing with.

I am officially bowing out of this thread.

July 13, 2015

Actually, I was "indoctrinated", to use your term, very intensely and directly by the Holy Spirit 20-some years ago.

I just noticed this. You were taught scripture 20 years ago by a ghost? Now I know what type of person I am dealing with.

I am officially bowing out of this thread.

Yep, someone who will refuse to listen to anything because their book of lies doesn't say it. I was going to jump in until I read that part, and just facepalmed. Here to do nothing more than preach.

And he talks to ghosts, that's an interesting concept. Nothing to see here, I think I will follow you out the door.

July 13, 2015

Actually, I was "indoctrinated", to use your term, very intensely and directly by the Holy Spirit 20-some years ago.

I just noticed this. You were taught scripture 20 years ago by a ghost? Now I know what type of person I am dealing with.

I am officially bowing out of this thread.

Yep, someone who will refuse to listen to anything because their book of lies doesn't say it. I was going to jump in until I read that part, and just facepalmed. Here to do nothing more than preach.

And he talks to ghosts, that's an interesting concept. Nothing to see here, I think I will follow you out the door.

Yeah, I missed that too, at least it was revealed after my long ass post, oh well... /le_sigh

July 14, 2015

Did our humble servant of the Most High God get scared off after only two posts? I'm willing to dance.

Bring it! With God on your side who can stand against you? (Of course Christian failure demonstrates

that God isn't really on your side. Perhaps that is because God is imaginary?)

July 16, 2015

Wow! Is this thread just a perfect example of how anger and hatred towards something just feeds upon itself?

Cat, as you stated: "p.s. none of them exist anyways so....", so why all the energy and hatred directed at someone that doesn't exist? That would be like frequently ranting about Bugs Bunny or Micky Mouse. Quite pointless and a waste of time.

It seems that most every thread eventually devolves down the same rabbit hole. Everyone jumping like lemmings over the cliff, trying to see who can claim the best twisted truth and the last word in trashing God.

So much mental and emotional energy spent. So much time wasted formulating, in some cases, articulate arguments and replies. And all this simply to debunk a supposedly fictional and non-existant character? I don't think any of you are so foolish as to waste so much of your limited precious time remaining (for those who don't believe in any afterlife) arguing against a fictional character. Move on already. Go live your life the best you can. Based on your postings in this forum, I can assume it's working out wonderfully well for you. Or is it...?

But since I'm pretty sure that all of you will remain here to continue trashing God and His followers, I think that this suggests highly that you do in fact believe in God, and you know that Jesus died for all our sins. Ranting and raving, denying, twisting scripture, throwing temper tantrums, and name calling works brilliantly to mask the truth, but it cannot change the truth.

Now, I know your ready to battle, so let's get on with it. HBEtechnician posed the following question:

"Think of all the shit the devil has done to man, now think of all the shit bible God has done to man.

Christians who do you think wins the nice guy award."

Unfortunately, this question in itself is quite absurd, and I'm not sure what it exposes about the experience or knowledge of the O.P. regarding competent or caring leadership.

Whether in business, politics, or anywhere else, a strong, competent, successful leader does not worry about winning some "nice guy" award. He or she cares for the organization and people that they are responsible for. The best leaders will make decisions based on what will be good in the end for everyone. Often the people will grumble and complain because they lack facts or accurate information regarding the big picture.

God has already spelled out the "big picture" for all of us. It is in the Bible, particularely in the New Testament.

It's not that hard to wrap your mind around. Here it is in a nutshell:

God created the universe. He created beings with free will, desires, and other attributes, including Lucifer, who's desire eventually turned to envy. That envy grew to mistrust and hatred of God. This eventually led to Lucifer battling God, and being defeated. Lucifer was then cast down to the earth, where he is allowed to roam and rule for awhile.

(If God were so vengeful and hateful, don't you think that He would have just "poofed" Lucifer away. Eliminated Lucifer's soul and existance? How about Lucifer's army, 1/3 of the angels? Why not simply eliminate them? Eliminate the threat? Start over with fresh angels?)

So now God creates humans, with souls, desires, and the ability to both receive and give love. (Most people think of humans as "bodies with souls". The soul as secondary, but this is incorrect. We are actually "souls inhabiting bodies". The soul, and heart, is primary to God.)

Right from the start God warns us about Lucifer, who is now known as Satan (or the devil). That Satan has become evil, and roams the earth. We are warned of Satan's lies, deceipt, and trickery. It's easy to understand a growing threat when you can see it coming at you, but the limitations of our physical eyesite and other senses don't even allow us to see him, to see spirit beings or angels, thus the threat was not understood.

We are also warned that we will have a difficult time here on earth. We will endure pain, hardship, disease, hatred, and many other troubles. In other words "this place is going to suck!". But we need to persevere. We are only here for a very brief time out of our entire infinite lives.

(Our time on this sinful earth out of the length of our infinite lives, can be equated to the time it takes for a single quick refueling stop during a year-long vacation.)

So, Adam and Eve were fooled by Satan into mistrusting God's intentions for them, and made a bad decision based on misrepresented information. Or to put it simply, they were conned by a thief, and unkwowingly let sin, and the effects of it, into this world.

I can imagine God might have been thinking "Crap! The kids have screwed up the whole plan. Now how do I fix this?"

I personally don't think that God expected sin to have such devestating effects on us, His children. I see many posts in this forum either referring to, or quoting OT scripture to show Gods anger.

Why wouldn't He get angry? His children are well warned about all types of evil and temptations, yet they continually gravitate towards it. Then when things get really bad, they come running back to their father (God) for awhile, who forgives them and takes them in. Feeds and clothes them again. The next thing you know, they get complacent and bored, and go wandering away towards trouble, and sin, again.

A side-note:

My daughters have been well-warned against drugs and the high rate of addiction. If one of them now was seduced into a drug addiction, I would be royally p*ssed! Not because of her getting addicted. But because she chose to trust in the seductive lies of the drug more than she chose to trust in me, their father, who only has their best intentions at heart, and who told them only the truth.

Next I would be working to get her out of the addiction. There would be arguing and fights. There would be denying the truth. She would probably say that she hated me, that I'm too controlling, that I have too many rules. There would be a lot of pain for both of us. I would forgive her, even if she never forgave me. Maybe she would never speak to me again. That would be her choice. But I would go to extremes to help her find the right path again.

Now back in history, things are getting really screwed up. The Jews are misunderstanding God, and have created over 600 rules to follow. They believe that God is all about rules and regulations. If you're a Jew, you can hardly move without breaking one of their manmade rules.

But it's simply not true. Another lie cooked up by the devil, and successfully implanted into religion. We see this still today in many religions.

So God formulates a new plan. A new covenent, if you will. It is so clever and brilliant in that it both covers the debt of the blood sacrifice required for payment of sins, while not a single drop of blood needs to be shed by any person born of a human man and woman to pay that debt!

God decides that He Himself will pay the debt for His children's mistakes.

(Have any of you ever decided to pay for a mistake your child made? Why did you do it?)

So a part of God's soul or energy (pick your favorite term) is born on earth in the form of a human, in the person of Jesus. For all practical purposes, he is entirely human. He has the same experiences that all of us have. He has to learn everything down here, just as we do from the time we're babies.

The difference is that Jesus's heart and soul are more directly connected to God. (This is highly simplified, but you should get the point.)

Part of God's plan includes opening up salvation to the entire world's population. It is no longer just for the Jews, but for everyone, everywhere.

God, as Jesus, will take all human sin upon Himself, allow Himself to be insulted, whipped, beaten, scourged, and put to death. When He died on the cross, His soul was then forsaken by God in heaven for a short time, so He could "decend" to hell and complete His work of defeating Satan.

Jesus then rose 3 days later. It is well documented that He was seen by several hundred people. This gives us proof that there is life after what we call "death".

God's plan gave "debt paid-in-full" credit to all humans that died before Jesus's crucifixion, and will continue to give credit to all humans at their death. The covenent is for no human to ever have to pay for their sins. This is the default position. The offer is in place from the time you are born, but the credit is given when you die from this earth.

Take note that God does not look for ways to trip-you-up, or to create obstacles in your path. He does not create rules that will disqualify you.

A father does not pay the child's debt, just to turn around and offer the child the same temptation that caused the child's debt in the first place.

But be forwarned, that after the father offers to pay for the child's debt, if the child tells the father to get lost, he doesn't need his father's help, or if he tells his friends and family that he has no father, that his father never existed, then the truth is that the offer of debt forgiveness may be withdrawn.

You have all your sins forgiven from birth by default. There is nothing you can do to improve this position.

You can however, lose salvation by turning away from Jesus. Put simply, if you adopt the lie that Jesus did not die for your sins, then no one has yet paid for your sins. You are an adult. If you do not want Jesus to stand in for you as your surogate to atone for your sins, then you have every right to deny Him, and pay for your sins on your own. Ask any lawyer that tries his own defense, how that worked out for him. Only a fool does it.

So here we have it, God is continually, for all of history, trying to figure out why we're so obstinate and destructive in all aspects of our lives. Yet, He repeatedly forgives us, sacrifices for us, and tries to set us on the right path. Sure He gets p*ssed once in a while. Who would'nt? If the local gang-bangers were contantly trying to seduce your kids into their gang, wouldn't you do something about it?

As for Satan, just reading the various threads on this site exposes it all. The despair, anger, hatred, mistrust, envy. It says it all. This is all you get when you try to remove God from your life. Absolutely no hope or joy at all.

I do understand that many of you have had very bad personal experiences with church and religion. The stories are everywhere, and many within this forum. Please keep in mind that churches are filled with human people. There is not one that has not sinned many times. Churches, no matter the size, require some type of leadership. Being in this position can become an immense power trip. A very difficult temptation to stand up against.

Often we consider a church and it's leaders a type of "safe haven", thinking in some form that it's off limits to the devil. This is not the case. In fact, the devil does some of his best behind-the-scenes work within churches.

I am not criticizing churches. I belong to a fairly large one. I do not agree with eveything in the church I attend. I have had disagreements with church leaders. But the fellowship and close friendships I have forged there are priceless.

I can only suggest that if you are ever in a situation where someone in a church tries to control you or your actions with rules and regulations, then you should be questioning them and their motives.

Can you skip to the part where you love us now?

July 16, 2015

Wow! Is this thread just a perfect example of how anger and hatred towards something just feeds upon itself?

Cat, as you stated: "p.s. none of them exist anyways so....", so why all the energy and hatred directed at someone that doesn't exist? That would be like frequently ranting about Bugs Bunny or Micky Mouse. Quite pointless and a waste of time.

It seems that most every thread eventually devolves down the same rabbit hole. Everyone jumping like lemmings over the cliff, trying to see who can claim the best twisted truth and the last word in trashing God.

So much mental and emotional energy spent. So much time wasted formulating, in some cases, articulate arguments and replies. And all this simply to debunk a supposedly fictional and non-existant character? I don't think any of you are so foolish as to waste so much of your limited precious time remaining (for those who don't believe in any afterlife) arguing against a fictional character. Move on already. Go live your life the best you can. Based on your postings in this forum, I can assume it's working out wonderfully well for you. Or is it...?

But since I'm pretty sure that all of you will remain here to continue trashing God and His followers, I think that this suggests highly that you do in fact believe in God, and you know that Jesus died for all our sins. Ranting and raving, denying, twisting scripture, throwing temper tantrums, and name calling works brilliantly to mask the truth, but it cannot change the truth.

Now, I know your ready to battle, so let's get on with it. HBEtechnician posed the following question:

"Think of all the shit the devil has done to man, now think of all the shit bible God has done to man.

Christians who do you think wins the nice guy award."

Unfortunately, this question in itself is quite absurd, and I'm not sure what it exposes about the experience or knowledge of the O.P. regarding competent or caring leadership.

Whether in business, politics, or anywhere else, a strong, competent, successful leader does not worry about winning some "nice guy" award. He or she cares for the organization and people that they are responsible for. The best leaders will make decisions based on what will be good in the end for everyone. Often the people will grumble and complain because they lack facts or accurate information regarding the big picture.

God has already spelled out the "big picture" for all of us. It is in the Bible, particularely in the New Testament.

It's not that hard to wrap your mind around. Here it is in a nutshell:

God created the universe. He created beings with free will, desires, and other attributes, including Lucifer, who's desire eventually turned to envy. That envy grew to mistrust and hatred of God. This eventually led to Lucifer battling God, and being defeated. Lucifer was then cast down to the earth, where he is allowed to roam and rule for awhile.

(If God were so vengeful and hateful, don't you think that He would have just "poofed" Lucifer away. Eliminated Lucifer's soul and existance? How about Lucifer's army, 1/3 of the angels? Why not simply eliminate them? Eliminate the threat? Start over with fresh angels?)

So now God creates humans, with souls, desires, and the ability to both receive and give love. (Most people think of humans as "bodies with souls". The soul as secondary, but this is incorrect. We are actually "souls inhabiting bodies". The soul, and heart, is primary to God.)

Right from the start God warns us about Lucifer, who is now known as Satan (or the devil). That Satan has become evil, and roams the earth. We are warned of Satan's lies, deceipt, and trickery. It's easy to understand a growing threat when you can see it coming at you, but the limitations of our physical eyesite and other senses don't even allow us to see him, to see spirit beings or angels, thus the threat was not understood.

We are also warned that we will have a difficult time here on earth. We will endure pain, hardship, disease, hatred, and many other troubles. In other words "this place is going to suck!". But we need to persevere. We are only here for a very brief time out of our entire infinite lives.

(Our time on this sinful earth out of the length of our infinite lives, can be equated to the time it takes for a single quick refueling stop during a year-long vacation.)

So, Adam and Eve were fooled by Satan into mistrusting God's intentions for them, and made a bad decision based on misrepresented information. Or to put it simply, they were conned by a thief, and unkwowingly let sin, and the effects of it, into this world.

I can imagine God might have been thinking "Crap! The kids have screwed up the whole plan. Now how do I fix this?"

I personally don't think that God expected sin to have such devestating effects on us, His children. I see many posts in this forum either referring to, or quoting OT scripture to show Gods anger.

Why wouldn't He get angry? His children are well warned about all types of evil and temptations, yet they continually gravitate towards it. Then when things get really bad, they come running back to their father (God) for awhile, who forgives them and takes them in. Feeds and clothes them again. The next thing you know, they get complacent and bored, and go wandering away towards trouble, and sin, again.

A side-note:

My daughters have been well-warned against drugs and the high rate of addiction. If one of them now was seduced into a drug addiction, I would be royally p*ssed! Not because of her getting addicted. But because she chose to trust in the seductive lies of the drug more than she chose to trust in me, their father, who only has their best intentions at heart, and who told them only the truth.

Next I would be working to get her out of the addiction. There would be arguing and fights. There would be denying the truth. She would probably say that she hated me, that I'm too controlling, that I have too many rules. There would be a lot of pain for both of us. I would forgive her, even if she never forgave me. Maybe she would never speak to me again. That would be her choice. But I would go to extremes to help her find the right path again.

Now back in history, things are getting really screwed up. The Jews are misunderstanding God, and have created over 600 rules to follow. They believe that God is all about rules and regulations. If you're a Jew, you can hardly move without breaking one of their manmade rules.

But it's simply not true. Another lie cooked up by the devil, and successfully implanted into religion. We see this still today in many religions.

So God formulates a new plan. A new covenent, if you will. It is so clever and brilliant in that it both covers the debt of the blood sacrifice required for payment of sins, while not a single drop of blood needs to be shed by any person born of a human man and woman to pay that debt!

God decides that He Himself will pay the debt for His children's mistakes.

(Have any of you ever decided to pay for a mistake your child made? Why did you do it?)

So a part of God's soul or energy (pick your favorite term) is born on earth in the form of a human, in the person of Jesus. For all practical purposes, he is entirely human. He has the same experiences that all of us have. He has to learn everything down here, just as we do from the time we're babies.

The difference is that Jesus's heart and soul are more directly connected to God. (This is highly simplified, but you should get the point.)

Part of God's plan includes opening up salvation to the entire world's population. It is no longer just for the Jews, but for everyone, everywhere.

God, as Jesus, will take all human sin upon Himself, allow Himself to be insulted, whipped, beaten, scourged, and put to death. When He died on the cross, His soul was then forsaken by God in heaven for a short time, so He could "decend" to hell and complete His work of defeating Satan.

Jesus then rose 3 days later. It is well documented that He was seen by several hundred people. This gives us proof that there is life after what we call "death".

God's plan gave "debt paid-in-full" credit to all humans that died before Jesus's crucifixion, and will continue to give credit to all humans at their death. The covenent is for no human to ever have to pay for their sins. This is the default position. The offer is in place from the time you are born, but the credit is given when you die from this earth.

Take note that God does not look for ways to trip-you-up, or to create obstacles in your path. He does not create rules that will disqualify you.

A father does not pay the child's debt, just to turn around and offer the child the same temptation that caused the child's debt in the first place.

But be forwarned, that after the father offers to pay for the child's debt, if the child tells the father to get lost, he doesn't need his father's help, or if he tells his friends and family that he has no father, that his father never existed, then the truth is that the offer of debt forgiveness may be withdrawn.

You have all your sins forgiven from birth by default. There is nothing you can do to improve this position.

You can however, lose salvation by turning away from Jesus. Put simply, if you adopt the lie that Jesus did not die for your sins, then no one has yet paid for your sins. You are an adult. If you do not want Jesus to stand in for you as your surogate to atone for your sins, then you have every right to deny Him, and pay for your sins on your own. Ask any lawyer that tries his own defense, how that worked out for him. Only a fool does it.

So here we have it, God is continually, for all of history, trying to figure out why we're so obstinate and destructive in all aspects of our lives. Yet, He repeatedly forgives us, sacrifices for us, and tries to set us on the right path. Sure He gets p*ssed once in a while. Who would'nt? If the local gang-bangers were contantly trying to seduce your kids into their gang, wouldn't you do something about it?

As for Satan, just reading the various threads on this site exposes it all. The despair, anger, hatred, mistrust, envy. It says it all. This is all you get when you try to remove God from your life. Absolutely no hope or joy at all.

I do understand that many of you have had very bad personal experiences with church and religion. The stories are everywhere, and many within this forum. Please keep in mind that churches are filled with human people. There is not one that has not sinned many times. Churches, no matter the size, require some type of leadership. Being in this position can become an immense power trip. A very difficult temptation to stand up against.

Often we consider a church and it's leaders a type of "safe haven", thinking in some form that it's off limits to the devil. This is not the case. In fact, the devil does some of his best behind-the-scenes work within churches.

I am not criticizing churches. I belong to a fairly large one. I do not agree with eveything in the church I attend. I have had disagreements with church leaders. But the fellowship and close friendships I have forged there are priceless.

I can only suggest that if you are ever in a situation where someone in a church tries to control you or your actions with rules and regulations, then you should be questioning them and their motives.

Can you skip to the part where you love us now?

The Nice Guy Award.

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