Asimov Posted April 8, 2005 Share Posted April 8, 2005 Informal, that is. I'm not looking for Paul Manata types who are sexually addicted to logical syllogisms, and formal discussion. I'm just looking for a good debate about whatever issues take your fancy, be it theological, atheological, moral, or whatever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthenSun Posted April 8, 2005 Share Posted April 8, 2005 Anti-religious people often carry their arguments to the point of exaggeration which results in diminishing the strength of their position, and it can make them look foolish. For example, yesterday on a talk radio show which had the topic: "Should the flag be lowered in honor of the pope?", a woman from a religious freedom group tried to argue that the Catholic Church was one of the most evil organizations of all time. However she was only able to cite examples of violence from the 16th century concerning witch burning. When pressed by the host for more current examples of papal abuse, her argument was reduced to her disagreement with the pope's non support of womens rights and specifically abortion rights. The host asked her more questions and she became flustered and ended up sounding like a looney. In my opinion, it is a mistake to equate religious people and institutions with the idea that they are all bad people and evil organizations. ( Of course many religious individuals will continue to make the similar argument: Atheist = Evil Person = End of Debate). But on balance I think most religious organizations do more good than bad. I see them as being delusional rather than malicious. And I think anti-religious people may be deluding themselves if they believe that the world will necessarily become a better place if religious faith simply vanished. On balance, the concept of Hell may be more beneficial in keeping human behavior in check than the psychological harm this idea causes to some people's psyche. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LloydDobler Posted April 8, 2005 Share Posted April 8, 2005 On balance, the concept of Hell may be more beneficial in keeping human behavior in check than the psychological harm this idea causes to some people's psyche. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I would think history shows that it isn't anywhere near as effective a deterrent as it should be. I think the harm caused to people's psyche is what leads to unhealthy behavioral deviations in the first place. I don't have any numbers to back me up though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asimov Posted April 9, 2005 Author Share Posted April 9, 2005 That's a good point, however I don't think the world will become a better place if religious faith simply vanished. I think when people realise that rational thought and logic are better than blind faith and emotions, then the world will be a better place. I don't think the concept of hell is psychologically harmful, nor do I think it is helpful in keeping human behaviour in check. Threats of violent punishment, or even just incarceration doesn't seem to sway people onto the rational side. Look at the prisons in the US. They are filled with Christians, people brought up in Christian houses and taught about hell and everything. I think the concept of sin is psychologically harmful, because it teaches a child that they are essentially worthless without Jesus. That they have no redeeming qualities unto themselves, and that they are basically going to be worthless unless they do everything the bible tells them to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totallyatpeace Posted April 9, 2005 Share Posted April 9, 2005 That they have no redeeming qualities unto themselves, and that they are basically going to be worthless unless they do everything the bible tells them to do. Okay, Asimov~ Show me the scripture you pulled that from. TAP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scitsofreaky Posted April 9, 2005 Share Posted April 9, 2005 Well TAP, the bible does teach that man is inherintly evil, and our hearts are corrupt. But, with good ol' J to the C, we can change that. So, Asimov's assertion is correct as far as I can tell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asimov Posted April 9, 2005 Author Share Posted April 9, 2005 Well TAP, the bible does teach that man is inherintly evil, and our hearts are corrupt. But, with good ol' J to the C, we can change that. So, Asimov's assertion is correct as far as I can tell. True story, scitsofreaky. It's not any one particular scripture, it's the entire message of Christianity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigToe Posted April 9, 2005 Share Posted April 9, 2005 Any Christians Up For Some Debate? No. HAHA. But that's because it hurts to think, and I like being lazy. No wait, that's because serious discussions on theology generally bore me because they all sound the same. Nah, I am just giving you a hard time. I like dialogue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asimov Posted April 9, 2005 Author Share Posted April 9, 2005 Haha, dialogue is fun, but I have nothing that I would disagree with you on...except a belief in God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IAm_Lucifer Posted April 9, 2005 Share Posted April 9, 2005 Well TAP, the bible does teach that man is inherintly evil, and our hearts are corrupt. But, with good ol' J to the C, we can change that. So, Asimov's assertion is correct as far as I can tell. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> And don't forget the obvious. We must be saved. Why was it again? Oh yeah, I remember now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asimov Posted April 9, 2005 Author Share Posted April 9, 2005 cuz yer a fuckin sinning asshole!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigToe Posted April 9, 2005 Share Posted April 9, 2005 Oh Asimov, I am sure there is something we disagree on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asimov Posted April 9, 2005 Author Share Posted April 9, 2005 Oh Asimov, I am sure there is something we disagree on. Well...I've never actually read anything on your theological standpoint... possibly because you don't enjoy 'boring' theological discussions... Seriously though, why do you believe in God, particularly the christian one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigToe Posted April 9, 2005 Share Posted April 9, 2005 HAHA I put part of the reason, the digested version, in that other thread with that person asking if you believe in love. Basically for me I decided there was more than the material universe. That rational/logical thought was the bones, but something else was the flesh. Since I tend to like fleshy things, I got to where I could choose to ignore it or not. I chose not to. But then, I'm not orthodox in the slightest. I don't think it is the "one true religion" I don't believe in hell, I am not sure if I believe in heaven- if it does exist I think everyone or no one will be there. I don't care either way. Heck, I am not 100% sure if I think Jesus was God (in fact, I am sure if I thought about it I would figure out that i don't think so). I don't do any of that literal interpretation thing, or think it is infallible, or even written by God. I don't think most of what is attributed to Jesus saying is all that accurate either. If he ever existed or not doesn't matter to me, I feel that he was a person that probably had the closest relationship to god (either real or just the tale of one). I think humans have twisted that tale to condone the things they want out of life- to justify their bigotry and hatred. So why not a deist or humanist? Because I rather like Jesus. I like what I believe he represents (which is far from what your average orthodox christian would believe). I don't think there is a moment when you are "saved," but instead I view "salvation" as a continual process of changing yourself into a better person, to fully incorporate grace and love into all aspects of your life. You probably just want to call me a feel good, wishy washy christian. It's easier to say than for me to delve into the details all that well. That am I have to jump in the shower and I don't have time at this moment That answer your question? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nightflight Posted April 10, 2005 Share Posted April 10, 2005 You look so cuddly in your pic, Big Toe! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
- AUB - Posted April 10, 2005 Share Posted April 10, 2005 That's a good point, however I don't think the world will become a better place if religious faith simply vanished. U bring up a good point, getting rid of religion is only half the battle, we need to highlight the better alternatives, reason etc defeats faith, but it can also replace it in our lives. Communism removed religion but only created something just as bad, being pro ethics, democracy and logic and all other methods of discrediting tryanny, secular or religious will help to show we're against all evils including the ones theists confuse us with. Bigtoe, what is it about jesus u like? I have trouble finding any good, as a god he's a monster, but as a personality, removed from the theological nonsense, free of the threats, promises and mind control mechanisms that have casued so many to destroy in his name, what is there that is positive? I'd like your examples, Don't worry i'm not after a debate, ive learnt that theists don't handle me very well. I agree there is more to life than the material world, there is the mental, but that is a product of the material, and should not be mistaken for an independant realm, as that kind of "dissection" of life causes harm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asimov Posted April 10, 2005 Author Share Posted April 10, 2005 HAHA I put part of the reason, the digested version, in that other thread with that person asking if you believe in love. Basically for me I decided there was more than the material universe. That rational/logical thought was the bones, but something else was the flesh. Since I tend to like fleshy things, I got to where I could choose to ignore it or not. I chose not to. But then, I'm not orthodox in the slightest. I don't think it is the "one true religion" I don't believe in hell, I am not sure if I believe in heaven- if it does exist I think everyone or no one will be there. I don't care either way. Heck, I am not 100% sure if I think Jesus was God (in fact, I am sure if I thought about it I would figure out that i don't think so). I don't do any of that literal interpretation thing, or think it is infallible, or even written by God. I don't think most of what is attributed to Jesus saying is all that accurate either. If he ever existed or not doesn't matter to me, I feel that he was a person that probably had the closest relationship to god (either real or just the tale of one). I think humans have twisted that tale to condone the things they want out of life- to justify their bigotry and hatred. So why not a deist or humanist? Because I rather like Jesus. I like what I believe he represents (which is far from what your average orthodox christian would believe). I don't think there is a moment when you are "saved," but instead I view "salvation" as a continual process of changing yourself into a better person, to fully incorporate grace and love into all aspects of your life. You probably just want to call me a feel good, wishy washy christian. It's easier to say than for me to delve into the details all that well. That am I have to jump in the shower and I don't have time at this moment That answer your question? It's bad to tell me that you're going to jump in the shower at the end of your post, my mind just turned to mush....abuuu...abuuhhh.... I have to eat supper, so I'll respond to the body of your post later!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigToe Posted April 10, 2005 Share Posted April 10, 2005 AUB- I don't honestly care if you like Jesus or my beliefs. That is your choice and that's all dandy. I am sure you know what works best for you. As far as debate- I promise you it isn't that I couldn't handle you. But honestly religiously themed debates bore me. There is not one thing either of us could say that hasn't been said by about a million people before us that we haven't heard. It is the same with a bunch of political debates. It just gets old after a while and I feel there is so much more to life than to waste my time "debating." Which is why I like dialogue. When people can discuss something rationally to learn what the other person beliefs without trying to sit there and say "you're wrong biatch and blah blah blah", I just get more out of it. I enjoy learning about other people and their beliefs in whatever is being discussed. I think it extremely rude when someone sits there and tries to sway someone else to change their beliefs to conform to their own. As far as what I like about Jesus- I dunno, take every happy go lucky thing someone says about him I suppose haha. I don't think he was a monster, but also, I don't think he did the things that "God" did either. He was a man, he wasn't some all controling being. (That is, if he even existed). Jesus was the one who sat with those society cast out, that healed people, that told the pharisees that legalism is retarded. He's the one that gave the example to love everyone, even those we can't find a reason to love. He's the one that tried to instill in people a sense of self worth so they could be proactive in their lives. (Yes, I've read the entire Bible, no I don't think it is the Word of God or perfect or whatever, it's a book. If you're going to hold some religious text to be all great, I'd pick the Tao Te Ching as it is quite beautiful). It is a belief system that I feel is right for me. I don't think it is right for everyone, and I don't wish everyone to hold those beliefs. I am GLAD not everyone does- that would be a rather boring world to live in. I do think a lot of christians, I suppose more of the orthodox variety, twist things in convaluted ways that are pretty disgusting. And quite frankly, other than my belief in God and like for Jesus, I probably agree with you on a lot more than I would a Southern Baptist. Nightflight- Thanks. Asimov- Sorry, I didn't mean to turn your mind to mush. I can check with your response tomorrow, as now I have to mastur.....um I mean go to bed haha. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asimov Posted April 10, 2005 Author Share Posted April 10, 2005 HAHA I put part of the reason, the digested version, in that other thread with that person asking if you believe in love. Basically for me I decided there was more than the material universe. That rational/logical thought was the bones, but something else was the flesh. Since I tend to like fleshy things, I got to where I could choose to ignore it or not. I chose not to. But then, I'm not orthodox in the slightest. I don't think it is the "one true religion" I don't believe in hell, I am not sure if I believe in heaven- if it does exist I think everyone or no one will be there. I don't care either way. Heck, I am not 100% sure if I think Jesus was God (in fact, I am sure if I thought about it I would figure out that i don't think so). I don't do any of that literal interpretation thing, or think it is infallible, or even written by God. I don't think most of what is attributed to Jesus saying is all that accurate either. If he ever existed or not doesn't matter to me, I feel that he was a person that probably had the closest relationship to god (either real or just the tale of one). I think humans have twisted that tale to condone the things they want out of life- to justify their bigotry and hatred. So why not a deist or humanist? Because I rather like Jesus. I like what I believe he represents (which is far from what your average orthodox christian would believe). I don't think there is a moment when you are "saved," but instead I view "salvation" as a continual process of changing yourself into a better person, to fully incorporate grace and love into all aspects of your life. You probably just want to call me a feel good, wishy washy christian. It's easier to say than for me to delve into the details all that well. That am I have to jump in the shower and I don't have time at this moment That answer your question? Yea, it answers my question, but I have a tough time labelling you as a christian. Haha. Even Ghandi liked Christ, and he was a Hindu, but he didn't believe Jesus was the Son of God. YOu're probably the most deistic Christian I've ever met. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigToe Posted April 11, 2005 Share Posted April 11, 2005 HAHA And now you probably realize why I don't do the whole debate thing all that often. Because other than the existence of God (which, I'm probably pretty agnostic in that too), most of what one would debate against I probably agree with them on some level. And quite frankly, I don't really care. It isn't some huge part of who I am. I'm rather secular in my beliefs. I don't go to church regularly (I see it as a waste of time and it cuts in on my sleeping late). While Easter is my fave holiday, it has nothing to do with the Christian twist on it. I like bunnies and ducks and wildflowers and painting eggs and chocolate and pastels and our family traditions and....you get the point. I would say the only "tradition" we have that is "christian" on a holiday is on Christmas we sing "Happy Birthday Baby Jesus" not so much that we think it was his birthday, but because it gives us something silly to do and call a tradition. That and we get to eat birthday cake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scitsofreaky Posted April 11, 2005 Share Posted April 11, 2005 So why not a deist or humanist? Because I rather like Jesus. I like what I believe he represents (which is far from what your average orthodox christian would believe).Well, the classical deist (eg the founding fathers) also liked Jesus. In fact, Jefferson believed that Jesus was a deist who was trying to show the jews the error of their beliefs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigToe Posted April 11, 2005 Share Posted April 11, 2005 That's fine. I call myself Christian because I use the example of Christ. His deity or not doesn't really have much bearing on my beliefs. Silly sounding I know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asimov Posted April 11, 2005 Author Share Posted April 11, 2005 HAHA And now you probably realize why I don't do the whole debate thing all that often. Because other than the existence of God (which, I'm probably pretty agnostic in that too), most of what one would debate against I probably agree with them on some level. And quite frankly, I don't really care. It isn't some huge part of who I am. I'm rather secular in my beliefs. I don't go to church regularly (I see it as a waste of time and it cuts in on my sleeping late). While Easter is my fave holiday, it has nothing to do with the Christian twist on it. I like bunnies and ducks and wildflowers and painting eggs and chocolate and pastels and our family traditions and....you get the point. I do realise why you dont' do the whole debate thing, you sound much too cute to debate with, I guess someone who simply associates themselves with a certain teaching of a spiritual leader would be called a Christian, or Buddhist, even if they don't necessarily believe in the mythological legends associated with that teacher. You throw a new perspective on religion, one that isn't new agey, nor is it conservative (bahah!! not by far!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scitsofreaky Posted April 11, 2005 Share Posted April 11, 2005 That's fine. I call myself Christian because I use the example of Christ. His deity or not doesn't really have much bearing on my beliefs. Silly sounding I know. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Doesn't sound silly to me at all, you have the right to choose what you want to be labled. In fact, you sound more christian than most christians, since christian mean "christ like." There is an interesting movement within deism that call themselves christian deists (an oxymoron if you ask me), and they sound just like you. I can give you a link to a bunch of articles by one of them if you would like, it is biblical studies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fweethawt Posted April 11, 2005 Share Posted April 11, 2005 I do realise why you dont' do the whole debate thing, you sound much too cute to debate with, Make no mistake about it... She's definitely a cutie-pie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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