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Goodbye Jesus

Is christianity ever OK?


TexasFreethinker

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This is a topic that I've struggled with for a long time. It is undeniable that many christian-based organizations do "good" deeds in the world. They run hospitals, soup kitchens, work to stamp out the child sex trade, etc.

 

I'm wondering if these good acts are enough to make christianity a more positive than negative influence on the world.

 

Here are some examples of what I mean...

 

Christian groups run hospitals to help the sick and soup kitchens to feed the poor, yet turn around and tell them that they are filled with sin and worthy of being burned in an eternal hell. A trade-off between physical well-being and mental abuse?

 

Christian groups help break child sex slave trade rings, then turn around and tell the little girls that they are meant to be subservient to men. A trade-off between freedom from physical abuse and life-long feelings of inferiority?

 

 

In my opinion, for christianity to become a more positive than negative influence on humanity it would have to renounce these things:

 

1. Doctrine of original sin with eternal hell-fire as appropriate punishment

2. Doctrine of unequal worth and power for men and women

3. Attempts to harm or deny equal rights to groups that aren't approved of by christian scripture (homosexuals, non-christians, etc)

4. Attempts to force non-christians to live by christian rules (religious rules that don't coincide with secular rules based on reason and principles of individual freedoms)

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The fact is that it will always do more harm than good.

Because, when you really look at it, many of the harms they are solving, they created in the first place.

 

Also, it will never do more good because at its base, the Bible itself is a promoter of confusion, fear, and other harmful negative beliefs (sexism, racism, etc).

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Making absolute statements is generally a bad idea. While christianity has done grievious harm, missionary work especially(indeed, the harm that has caused goes well beyond a sermon...), you can't judge ALL because of that.

 

There has to be someone out there who breaks the rule, leaves the bible behind(or takes it for personal use) and just lends aid where they can.

 

Merlin

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Making absolute statements is generally a bad idea.

 

I do try to avoid that too, and will say that my saying always is not appropriate.

Though the majority of the time, it is the case.

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What bugs me that some churches build buildings that costs 50 mil $, and then two block away there's poor people begging for money!

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Guest Euthyphro
Making absolute statements is generally a bad idea. While christianity has done grievious harm, missionary work especially(indeed, the harm that has caused goes well beyond a sermon...), you can't judge ALL because of that.

 

There has to be someone out there who breaks the rule, leaves the bible behind(or takes it for personal use) and just lends aid where they can.

 

Merlin

 

This makes sense to me. Another thing to consider is xian cultures verses the bible. I know damn well that there are some xian groups that help folks through giving groceries and even pointing them in the direction of jobs, helping to fill out SSI forms, job apps, free mariage counseling without pushing thier god or theology. You can look at groups of any one denomination and see different apraoches to "helping" people. All denominations use scripture for thier philosophies. I think some groups are really positive...wholesome.

 

However the bible is a mixed bag aint it? Seems so to me. The bible has something for almost every personality type me thinks. I think that people who use the bible as a method to know what help is, what justice is, or when and how to be your brothers keeper, are always going to be a potential danger. It all depends on any life experiences that may or may not make them unstable.

 

Why use or endorse methods that are flawed to begin with? I will always be against the "God says so" methods. Doesn't mean I'm gonna throw Higher Power out the window but when it comes to Higher Power I'm more comfortable with having mere opinions than the ugly certitudes that can be so hurtful.

 

If a person can't use a holybook or an ideology as an authority to harm then they will be forced to lay thier needs and prejudices on the table for all to see.

They may be more likely to think twice before doing something intolerant or harmful because everyone wants to think of themselves as a good person. Everyone wants others to think of them as good people.

 

If everyone values life, liberty and the persuit of happiness they can't use very many holybooks or certain philosophies as a method for maximizing these values unless of course they cherry pick with the aid of rose colored glasses that every good and honorable religious person has.

 

The Bible and Qu'Ran are definately stumbling blocks for folks. AUTHENTIC altruism. AUTHENTIC concern for the well being and happiness of our brothers and sisters is not coherently covered in those books.

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Guest Euthyphro
This is a topic that I've struggled with for a long time.  It is undeniable that many christian-based organizations do "good" deeds in the world.  They run hospitals, soup kitchens, work to stamp out the child sex trade, etc.

 

I'm wondering if these good acts are enough to make christianity a more positive than negative influence on the world.

 

Here are some examples of what I mean...

 

Christian groups run hospitals to help the sick and soup kitchens to feed the poor, yet turn around and tell them that they are filled with sin and worthy of being burned in an eternal hell.  A trade-off between physical well-being and mental abuse?

 

Christian groups help break child sex slave trade rings, then turn around and tell the little girls that they are meant to be subservient to men.  A trade-off between freedom from physical abuse and life-long feelings of inferiority?

In my opinion, for christianity to become a more positive than negative influence on humanity it would have to renounce these things:

 

1.  Doctrine of original sin with eternal hell-fire as appropriate punishment

2.  Doctrine of unequal worth and power for men and women

3.  Attempts to harm or deny equal rights to groups that aren't approved of by christian scripture (homosexuals, non-christians, etc)

4.  Attempts to force non-christians to live by christian rules (religious rules that don't coincide with secular rules based on reason and principles of individual freedoms)

 

I doubt most of your claims can be refuted. These are ugly truths that xians willfully ignor.

 

1. Doctrine of original sin with eternal hell-fire as appropriate punishment

Why didn't biblegod concentrate more on encouraging people to develope thier empathy? An omnipowered god could certainly take a more gentle aproach with his creatures that he supposedly loves. Bribes and threats are good for training animals maybe but human beings are capable of being more than just dumb brutes who just react to threats and bribes. The bible is antihuman philosophy.

 

2. Doctrine of unequal worth and power for men and women

 

It is self evident that women are our equals in intelligence and spirituality. The bible tells hurtful lies about humanity.

 

3. Attempts to harm or deny equal rights to groups that aren't approved of by christian scripture (homosexuals, non-christians, etc)

 

4. Attempts to force non-christians to live by christian rules (religious rules that don't coincide with secular rules based on reason and principles of individual freedoms)

 

The bible certainly has bad examples of what it is to be tolerant. But still I'm not sure if it is biblical (taking the new testament into account) , to coerce folks into choosing gods ways through mans laws. I thought the kingdom of heaven is in the heart and has no place in mans laws. I dunno for sure yet...

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I do try to avoid that too, and will say that my saying always is not appropriate.

Though the majority of the time, it is the case.

 

I can accept that...

 

What bugs me that some churches build buildings that costs 50 mil $, and then two block away there's poor people begging for money!

 

I've seen this first hand... makes me homicidal. Too often a church is a sinkhole of both money and hope, not a way out. Instead of enabling the weak, they add another anchor to make sure they stay down.

 

This makes sense to me. Another thing to consider is xian cultures verses the bible. I know damn well that there are some xian groups that help folks through giving groceries and even pointing them in the direction of jobs, helping to fill out SSI forms, job apps, free mariage counseling without pushing thier god or theology. You can look at groups of any one denomination and see different apraoches to "helping" people. All denominations use scripture for thier philosophies. I think some groups are really positive...wholesome.

 

I agree, there are worthy causes out there and people willing to help in those causes. Too many people see it as an opperunity to aid themselves and not others though.

 

For myself, I'd rather dedicate my own effort to helping others... money is so easy to steal. If I help someone myself, NO ONE can take that.

 

However the bible is a mixed bag aint it? Seems so to me. The bible has something for almost every personality type me thinks. I think that people who use the bible as a method to know what help is, what justice is, or when and how to be your brothers keeper, are always going to be a potential danger. It all depends on any life experiences that may or may not make them unstable.

 

It is a mixed bag in the truest sense... it can't agree with itself, in it's most basic levels.

 

Morals should come from within... the Bible is a storybook, not a lawbook... and even the lawbooks are a mess in a lot of places.

 

Why use or endorse methods that are flawed to begin with? I will always be against the "God says so" methods. Doesn't mean I'm gonna throw Higher Power out the window but when it comes to Higher Power I'm more comfortable with having mere opinions than the ugly certitudes that can be so hurtful.

 

I think that's a brilliant idea... I love it. It removes an excuse. If two people do the same crime, one person says "I had to"... he gets locked up without a second thought. Person two other says "God told me to"... and all hell breaks lose. Why? Why is it God is less moral than man?

 

If a person can't use a holybook or an ideology as an authority to harm then they will be forced to lay thier needs and prejudices on the table for all to see.

They may be more likely to think twice before doing something intolerant or harmful because everyone wants to think of themselves as a good person. Everyone wants others to think of them as good people.

 

Amen... uncover the lie and expose the truth.

 

I wonder how many believers want the same thing we do?

 

If everyone values life, liberty and the persuit of happiness they can't use very many holybooks or certain philosophies as a method for maximizing these values unless of course they cherry pick with the aid of rose colored glasses that every good and honorable religious person has.

 

Morality is a guide... not an excuse.

 

The Bible and Qu'Ran are definately stumbling blocks for folks. AUTHENTIC altruism. AUTHENTIC concern for the well being and happiness of our brothers and sisters is not coherently covered in those books.

 

I can't speak to that authoritavely. I will say that if there is a good message in there somewhere it's been coverd up so much by talk of slavery and stonings and only TRUE believers being worthy that it's lost in the flood of purely mortal hate.

 

Thanks for the reply Euthypho

 

Merlin

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I will say that if there is a good message in there somewhere it's been coverd up so much by talk of slavery and  stonings and only TRUE believers being worthy that it's lost in the flood of purely mortal hate.

 

Merlin

 

There are many good messages in there.......

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There are many good messages in there.......

 

And a whole bunch of bad ones or mixed ones.

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There are many good messages in there.......

 

You're certainly an example of that... no doubt there. It also needs more emphasis than it gets now.

 

Overall, I think it is just as Euthyphro said... a mixed bag. On the one hand you have the wonderful idea of reaching out to others... on the other you have people receiving orders to kill from God.

 

:shrug:

 

Merlin

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on the other you have people receiving orders to kill from God.

 

:shrug:

 

Merlin

 

When you have time, read the story of Gideon in the Bible and tell me what the real message is. ;)

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When you have time, read the story of Gideon in the  Bible and tell me what the real message is. ;)

 

Gideon? Will do...

 

Merlin

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Guest Euthyphro
When you have time, read the story of Gideon in the  Bible and tell me what the real message is. ;)

 

God allowed gideon to test him many times. If I remember right godeon had self esteem issues.

 

But it is sandbagging pure and simple to ignor the obvious bad examples and bad perception of humanity that is in the bible. One story can not undue the other turds that exist in the bible. The ancients made guesses about higher power.

Whats wrong with admiting the odvious? That the bible is not the word of God and to just appreciate the gems that our ancestors came up with while rejecting the hate and ignorance. Maybe xianity can be a tradition that embraces the gems but rejects the hate, chauvinism, and ignorance of its holybook. The most dangerous thing about the bible is the ambiguity mixed with the idea that it is actual revelation from god. This combo has caused much suffering in the past and present.

 

When you say that you know Higher Power better than anyone else and that Higher Power hates other peoples understanding of Higher Power and will be punnished , what you are doing is pissing all over your brothers and sisters. If you claim that the bible is a revelation from God, that jesus is the only way then you are IN DEED a bigot. Narrow minded. PERIOD.

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When you say that you know Higher Power better than anyone else and that Higher Power hates other peoples understanding of Higher Power and will be punnished , what you are doing is pissing all over your brothers and sisters. If you claim that the bible is a revelation from God, that jesus is the only way then you are IN DEED a bigot. Narrow minded. PERIOD.

 

 

But how do you really feel? :Hmm:

 

 

 

 

Euthyphro~

 

In all seriousness... I heard you.

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Guest Euthyphro
But how do you really feel? :Hmm:

Euthyphro~

 

In all seriousness... I heard you.

 

I know I'm a little stinker and I apologize. But I think it is possible to keep xianity as a tradition without the claims of a god inspired book. If we treat our ancestors as flesh and blood parents who can be wrong we can progress towards more human friendly worldviews. I don't think we have to throw the baby out with the bath water necassarily. But admiting that the bible is not revelation from Higher Power is a start in the right direction.

 

I am open minded to the idea that the bible writers were at times strongly intune with that inner light that is beautiful. BUT NOT ALWAYS.

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This one's easy for me, TF... like weighing the relative merits of the serial rapist who treats his wife well.

 

I voted "no."

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When you have time, read the story of Gideon in the  Bible and tell me what the real message is. ;)

 

Well, I think the message is that Gideon had hallucinations, killed an innocent animal to sacrifice to God (like most pagan cults do), and then he attacked the Midianites.

 

To answer your question what the real message about Gideon is; my interpretation is that he was a man that didn’t have any confidence and God raised him up to be a warrior, and saved the people from the Midianites and their false religions. So the story is that God can call small and non-important people to do his calling, and he will give them the strength and success they need to execute his calling too.

 

The story is good, especially if you read it as just that, a story. That’s what I believe it is, it is supposed to be a spiritual guide for people to become strong from being weak. But the contents and meaning of the story doesn’t change if the story is true or not. So you can be an atheist and still get the idea and learn from it.

 

But to read the story in a literal meaning, it says that freedom of religion is a bad thing, and God will call us to kill people that have false god.

 

I'm pretty sure you don't have anything personal against the Midianites. So why would the story be good for you? Do you want to kill some Baal believing Midianites?

 

The terrorists that attacked the twin towers on 9/11, thought they were doing Gods work too, so do you think they did a right thing?

 

Or did Bush get a divine calling to attack Iraq?

 

How can we be sure Gideon really told the truth about his experience with the angel, maybe he made it up just so he could justify his acts?

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I went with unsure mainly because there wasn't an other. I believe that a person's religion is a deeply personal thing and, as such, should be one that works for that individual. If a person finds that Christianity works for them, it provides them happiness and allows them to sleep better at night... then it is good for them and it's not my right nor anyone else's to take that away from them. The same goes with all the other "religions" and belief systems out there. If it works for you, makes you feel good and comfortable with your life and doesn't cause you to suffer (unreasonably... hey some people like a little suffering now and again -- I don't understand it myself but some people do)... then you have a right to believe it.

 

The right to persue happiness... I firmly believe in it. If Christianity makes you happy, it is your right to believe it.

 

Now... trying to make the rest of the world conform to your personal view because you're not secure enough in it to accept other people thinking it is wrong... that's not right. I support personal religions... not the groups which seek to impose their beliefs (or the morals of their beliefs) on the rest of us. An example I was just thinking of today... my county's blue laws. 2am-7am alcohol can't be sold. Fine... I don't have to like it but it isn't really "religious." Oh wait, on Sunday it is 2am-10am! How is that NOT in deferrence to someone else's religion? Why can I buy beer every other day at 7:01am but on Sunday I need to wait an extra 3 hours... regardless of my religious affiliation?!

 

Anyway.. I don't think Christianity is "Bad" ... as long as it's something personal and kept to yourself. Believe in "Rectal Rhinos" for all I care... if it works for you.

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When you have time, read the story of Gideon in the  Bible and tell me what the real message is. ;)

 

One of the messages in the story of Gideon is that god will give clear physical signs as directed by the petitioner when the petitioner is in doubt...

 

Judges 6:36-40 Gideon said to God, “If you will save Israel by my hand as you have promised—  look, I will place a wool fleece on the threshing floor. If there is dew only on the fleece and all the ground is dry, then I will know that you will save Israel by my hand, as you said.” And that is what happened. Gideon rose early the next day; he squeezed the fleece and wrung out the dew—a bowlful of water. Then Gideon said to God, “Do not be angry with me. Let me make just one more request. Allow me one more test with the fleece. This time make the fleece dry and the ground covered with dew.” That night God did so. Only the fleece was dry; all the ground was covered with dew.

 

That sort of personal response has been in short supply for many in these forums.

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I voted for unsure, because I think it depends on the sect. Ultra-conservative sects aren't representative of the entire religion, even if they think they are. There are some liberal branches of Christianity that do actually spend their time and money on charity instead of just building new additions to their churches. I don't know whether all of the charity work together outweighs the bad stuff (Jerry Falwell, fundies in general, the Crusades, and so forth). Yes, I know that atheists and agnostics volunteer and donate to charity. I've donated to charity since my deconversion.

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Now prepare for a shock - the single "yes" comes from me :eek:

 

I guess that, if you take the whole christian population of the world, the net result will indeed be positive, if only slightly. Of course this means including the vast majority of liberal christians who don't even know the bullshit that can be found in the bible, so one can argue whether they are True Christians™ :fdevil:

 

However, I totally agree with the list presented in the OP - christianity has to get rid off several things to remain acceptable. Merely not telling believers about them won't do the trick in the long run, for as long as they're still in there they can be found and a fundy cult can get born of the accursed book. :Hmm:

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When you say that you know Higher Power better than anyone else and that Higher Power hates other peoples understanding of Higher Power and will be punnished , what you are doing is pissing all over your brothers and sisters. If you claim that the bible is a revelation from God, that jesus is the only way then you are IN DEED a bigot. Narrow minded. PERIOD.

 

OK, before I respond to the rest of your post, what are you smoking?

 

TAP has not stated that she believes Jesus is the one and only way. She has also stated that the afterlife is not something we can know with any certainty or scientific evidence... indeed she actively disagrees with that idea.

 

You're speaking to someone else here Euthyphro... the nutcase you are yelling at certainly exists, I've verbally decked his kind many times(and have been sorely tempted in real life), but TAP most certianly does not fit the profile.

 

Fact - she has not tried ONCE to convert someone or anything of the sort. She respects this site's purpose very much and will not interfere with it. I'd say that alone should earn her some respect, hmm?

 

Save the vitrol for when the shoe fits... and stop shooting yourself in the foot.

 

God allowed gideon to test him many times. If I remember right godeon had self esteem issues.

 

I really must read this on my own... I don't like second-hand reviews much.

 

But it is sandbagging pure and simple to ignor the obvious bad examples and bad perception of humanity that is in the bible. One story can not undue the other turds that exist in the bible. The ancients made guesses about higher power.

Whats wrong with admiting the odvious? That the bible is not the word of God and to just appreciate the gems that our ancestors came up with while rejecting the hate and ignorance. Maybe xianity can be a tradition that embraces the gems but rejects the hate, chauvinism, and ignorance of its holybook. The most dangerous thing about the bible is the ambiguity mixed with the idea that it is actual revelation from god. This combo has caused much suffering in the past and present.

 

I think this is something we all should do... look at the past not only for new and better ideas(better status of women in ancient civilizations, or logic and debate being the point of school) but also look at the mistakes made(rampant slavery and/or racisim, bigotry, hate, destruction of knowledge because of fear, etc.).

 

Merlin

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