Mythra Posted July 23, 2006 Share Posted July 23, 2006 Christians: has your GOD always been a trinity? Do you believe, as John states, that nothing was made that was not made through Jesus? Father-Son-Holy Spirit has always been the nature of this deity? Why do we speak of Yahweh of the Old Testament and Jesus of the New Testament as separate? Why do we not give Jesus the proper credit: 1. It was Jesus who drowned every living thing on the planet, with the exception of a boatload of zoological refugees. 2. It was Jesus who ordered the slaughter of all of the first-born children in Egypt. 3. It was Jesus who demands the stoning of a man for picking up sticks on the Sabbath. 4. It was Jesus who was satiated by the STONING OF ACHAN'S LITTLE KIDS. 5. It was Jesus who orders the Israelites to "utterly destroy" the Canaanites. 6. It was Jesus who ordered the killing of all the men, women, and children in Jericho. 7. It was Jesus who approves of the "utter destruction" of the Gibeonites, the Libnahites, the Eglonites, the Hebronites, the Debrites, and the Moabites. And, it was Jesus who said: "But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic. Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. Do to others as you would have them do to you. " Now, let me get this straight. This religion makes sense to you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted July 23, 2006 Share Posted July 23, 2006 Well, Mythra, when you put it that way... It is truly strange. It's really like two completely different Gods that are described. Maybe it should be called a ScizoGod? Or maybe it's Split Divinity Disorder (SDD)? (I know I'm not Christian, I just wanted to bump the topic up on top) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JP Posted July 24, 2006 Share Posted July 24, 2006 There's some food for thought...good post, Mythra! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnceConvinced Posted July 24, 2006 Share Posted July 24, 2006 Those scriptures are some of the very first scriptures in the bible which I took umbrage with. They are in fact teaching you to be a dormat to bullies, teaching you how to be a victim. My mother always taught be to me nice to bullies at school because of those verses. Well meaning, but totally out of touch advice. It was just teaching me to be a victim. It wasn't until I was an adult that I learnt you had to stand up to bullies - it was the only way to deal with them. Did Jesus really want us to be victims? Because that's what he is teaching we should be in those verses. Ludicrious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fweethawt Posted July 24, 2006 Share Posted July 24, 2006 Like I said in another thread around here somewhere where someone asked why I/we left christianity. I replied, "I left christianity because jesus tried to teach me to love my enemies and hate my family. And I figured that once I believed that, it was only a matter of time before he asked me to do unspeakable things with the holes in his hands and feet. So I walked away." Christianity, it seems, is nothing more than insanity caused by desperately looking for something that isn't there. However, it does work well in short-circuiting the mind in order to creat mindless followers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
h3lix Posted July 24, 2006 Share Posted July 24, 2006 The Old Testament really doesn't fit with the amazing grace and love of the triune God that we're preached about daily. After all, part of the trio, the HS is described very oddly in Genesis 6:3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years. I really don't know what to make of that. So for all we really know, the HS filled in for the serpent during the corruption of man. Matthew 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come. Oops, I'm screwed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abiyoyo Posted July 24, 2006 Share Posted July 24, 2006 Mythra, Im not trying to be a smartass here, or throw a typical fundie answer on the board; but come on, seriously to any. I hear alot about what God did then in this seemingly horrible, un Jesus like aspect; yet alot of these points of scripture were apart of a much bigger picture. What about Lot? Thats comparable apples to oranges. If God is such a monsterous God and is just divinely moody,, then why didnt He just let Lot and his family die when He as I remind, poured brimstone and hellfire onto Sodom. Another thing, 3 visited Abraham before that destruction. Now these people were corrupt, according to the Bible. I think the bigger issue is hell really in general. I think it all goes back to the concept of eternal torture, not to sway the subject, just throwing that out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fweethawt Posted July 24, 2006 Share Posted July 24, 2006 You do have a good point there, YoYo. After all, god very well could have poured fire and brimstone down on Lot and his wife instead of just the thousands of other people. Details. Details. How come christians always miss the details?!?! Yep! YoYo's on his way back up the string for sure! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abiyoyo Posted July 24, 2006 Share Posted July 24, 2006 You do have a good point there, YoYo. After all, god very well could have poured fire and brimstone down on Lot and his wife instead of just the thousands of other people. Details. Details. How come christians always miss the details?!?! Yep! YoYo's on his way back up the string for sure! Thats my point, though. Please rad my entire response before assuming Im an idiot. Sometimes I wonder not why these things happened to these people, but where are they now, or at the end. Whom did God send to them beforehand. I really ponder on maybe Lot was the only person there and they just bucked him out the way. But still, I will agree that this seems odd, in comparison with the Jesus portrayed, yet in context with the story in general of the leading up to Christ; seems to fit. People die. Nobody here can argue that. There are truly evil, bad people out there that want to hurt others. Nobody here can deny that as well. Maybe, since the Bible spoke of the corruptness reaching the heavens, they fit into that unspeakable catagory more than you or I could even ever phathom. I mean to say this and that about the absolute of a story that is weighted that harshly in todays time, not knowing except from the writtings what really happened is absurd and in my opinion pretty narrow minded. I wont say that it was right or wrong, yet I will believe the best toward, and still keep an open mind to all angles of thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fweethawt Posted July 24, 2006 Share Posted July 24, 2006 The only thing "possible" within the context of the story is that maybe, just maybe, at one time there was a meteor shower that pounded the hell out of a certain city. Anything else was written in to aid the agenda of the religion. It's quite simple, actually. No need to "keep an open mind to all angles of thought" when you can know that most of it is bullshit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abiyoyo Posted July 24, 2006 Share Posted July 24, 2006 The only thing "possible" within the context of the story is that maybe, just maybe, at one time there was a meteor shower that pounded the hell out of a certain city. Anything else was written in to aid the agenda of the religion. It's quite simple, actually. No need to "keep an open mind to all angles of thought" when you can know that most of it is bullshit. Oh my. I cant help myself here. Your right. Its just like when those fundies come in and say that they "cant keep and open mind to all angles of thought" when the Bible says that Jesus is the only way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fweethawt Posted July 24, 2006 Share Posted July 24, 2006 The only thing "possible" within the context of the story is that maybe, just maybe, at one time there was a meteor shower that pounded the hell out of a certain city. Anything else was written in to aid the agenda of the religion. It's quite simple, actually. No need to "keep an open mind to all angles of thought" when you can know that most of it is bullshit. Oh my. I cant help myself here. Your right. Its just like when those fundies come in and say that they "cant keep and open mind to all angles of thought" when the Bible says that Jesus is the only way. No, it's not "just like" that at all. You just haven't figured out how to recognize all of the bullshit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mythra Posted July 24, 2006 Author Share Posted July 24, 2006 People die. Nobody here can argue that. There are truly evil, bad people out there that want to hurt others. Nobody here can deny that as well. These two faces of Jesus cannot be reconciled by any amount of reasoning, Yo Yo. Read the Achan account with an open mind. Achan wasn't an evil person. He just got sticky fingers during a raid, where everyone was being slaughtered anyway. He was an Israelite. God (Jesus) was so furious, that his anger didn't subside until Achan, his wife, his kids, his donkeys, sheep, and cattle, his maidservants and manservants (slaves) - were all stoned to death by the tribe of God's chosen people. Then the bible tells us that Jesus' (GOD's) anger subsided. And, I don't buy that the Canaanites, Moabites, and all of the other ites were utterly wicked people. They were just people. Trying to tough their way through life. Until a warring tribe swept down on them in the name of God and sliced their little children's throats and claimed their land based on a made-up divine promise. Good luck justifying this with any amount of apologetics. Now if you want to Apologize for God's (Jesus') actions, that might be a little more acceptable. Thank the gods there is not a capricious deity /creator who actually did and said these things. It would be a sorry thing indeed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
h3lix Posted July 24, 2006 Share Posted July 24, 2006 What about Lot? Thats comparable apples to oranges. If God is such a monsterous God and is just divinely moody,, then why didnt He just let Lot and his family die when He as I remind, poured brimstone and hellfire onto Sodom. If everyone else in Sodom deserved death, then Lot did too. While the city of Sodom was knocking at his door trying to get Lot to send his guest (the angel) out into the city to be massively raped. Lot then offered his two virgin daughters to appease and distract the people. Talk about father of the year... Then there's the next 8 verses after the story traditionally ends when Lot sleeps with his daughters to preserve his seed, (it was the daughters' idea) This family was the shining jewel of Sodom that God decided to save? If you're going to throw the "God uses everyone" rhetoric at me, then here's my response to that: how come God didn't use the rest of the Sodomites? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asuryan Posted July 24, 2006 Share Posted July 24, 2006 I mean to say this and that about the absolute of a story that is weighted that harshly in todays time, not knowing except from the writtings what really happened is absurd and in my opinion pretty narrow minded. However, we do have methods for discerning truth from lies. Example 1) Some people believe in the tooth fairy. Some other don't. Would your position on this matter be "well, we should just accept that we will never know what really happens at night when the tooth disappears"? I think that a scientific study, using infra-red or ultraviolet cameras, a statistical selection of children and adults losing teeth from all over the world, and careful conduction of the experiment, will show us the truth. We'll have answers to questions like: does the tooth fairy appear only in america? Only in western societies? Does she appear only for children, or also for adults? Of course we won't be able to prove IF THE TOOTH FAIRY EXISTS, but we can arrive to the following conclusions: - If the tooth fairy exists, there is no proof of it. - Every time a tooth has been replaced by money, it was because of someone else's intervention, almost always a parent, in the remaining cases some other relative in the house at that time. And so on. Example 2) The bible says that in ancient times it was common for people to live various hundreds of years. A scientific study is in order. We could proceed this way: interview a selection of doctors, physicians, and biologists, to ask them exactly what causes people to have a very long life (alimentation, absence of certain illnesses, physical exercise, something else again). Then ask those same people if they think it is possible to live to be, let's say, 900 years and more. We can proceed further by analizing the bones of some really ancient people, during various historical periods: prehistoric, ancient egypt, ancient greece, ancient rome, roman egypt, alexander's greece, fall of rome, middle ages... and so on. So we'll be able to arrive to the following conclusions: - Living long is directly linked to living a good life, having enough to eat, drink, without exerting oneself too much, doing some exercises regularly to keep your heart in good health, avoiding certain illnesses while getting some other in order to reinforce your immunitary system. Living in a good climate is important too - a place with too many swamps and bogs would be a haven for malaria cases, i.e. - Even with the best living conditions possible, the best modern medicine has to offer, and lots of money to grant yourself a personal doctor and personal trainer and personal nutritionist, surpassing 150 would almost certainly be impossible. - Dating of ancient bones shows us how people in those ages lived WAY LESS, and surely not MORE, than we live today, because of the aforementioned factors. The bible speaks of long-living people as if it was a rather common occurrence, but there are no bones or bone fragments of 300 or 400 yrs old people. We have proof of the contrary - meaning, many many bones, both ancient and not so ancient, showing us a medium lifespan of about 30 yrs, or even less. So... this is not about "not knowing", this is about "knowing it wasn't so". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mythra Posted July 24, 2006 Author Share Posted July 24, 2006 Now, for the really good news. Most, if not all of the stories in the Old Testament are fictional. It's interesting for the sake of academic discussion to try and make sense of the dual nature of this Yahweh/Jesus/Spirit deity. To try and comprehend his wrath / grace / patience / fury / jealosy caca. But the reason it doesn't make sense is because it is a collection of stories - written hundreds and hundreds of years apart by various people trying to convince the audience of their way of thinking. Non-Sectarian Archaeology shows that the stories are just that. Stories. The Bible Unearthed: Archaeology's New Vision of Ancient Israel and the Origin of Its Sacred Texts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mythra Posted July 25, 2006 Author Share Posted July 25, 2006 Hey, I just thought of something. If Jesus has always been god - then he for sure wasn't without sin, since we've got written record of God sponsoring murder. Just as surely as if he was the godfather. A mafioso diety. He's pretty good at making offers you can't refuse, too. So, Jesus isn't without sin. And, not just some penny-ante shit like masturbation or jealosy. The dude was complicit in mass murder. Amy's screwed if she thinks this guy's a spotless lamb. Amazing the shit that comes out when you're involved in deep philosophical thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkepticOfBible Posted July 26, 2006 Share Posted July 26, 2006 Then there's the next 8 verses after the story traditionally ends when Lot sleeps with his daughters to preserve his seed, (it was the daughters' idea) The whole Lot story was invented(just like Noah) so that Isrealites could justify the wars against the other tribes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amanda Posted July 27, 2006 Share Posted July 27, 2006 Christians: has your GOD always been a trinity? Do you believe, as John states, that nothing was made that was not made through Jesus? Father-Son-Holy Spirit has always been the nature of this deity? Why do we speak of Yahweh of the Old Testament and Jesus of the New Testament as separate? Why do we not give Jesus the proper credit: 1. It was Jesus who drowned every living thing on the planet, with the exception of a boatload of zoological refugees. 2. It was Jesus who ordered the slaughter of all of the first-born children in Egypt. 3. It was Jesus who demands the stoning of a man for picking up sticks on the Sabbath. 4. It was Jesus who was satiated by the STONING OF ACHAN'S LITTLE KIDS. 5. It was Jesus who orders the Israelites to "utterly destroy" the Canaanites. 6. It was Jesus who ordered the killing of all the men, women, and children in Jericho. 7. It was Jesus who approves of the "utter destruction" of the Gibeonites, the Libnahites, the Eglonites, the Hebronites, the Debrites, and the Moabites. And, it was Jesus who said: "But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic. Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. Do to others as you would have them do to you. " Now, let me get this straight. This religion makes sense to you? Mythra, did you know that their seems to be a three part aspect to deity in many religions? I read of one of the Buddhist aspects that helped me understand this more. The Power of God, the Consciousness of God, and the Divine Rapture of God. Perhaps the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit? I have discussed this on a post with HanSolo concerning another religion also. Nothing new. Didn't you recognize this in all your mythology research? Yes, and in giving "Jesus" the proper credit... well then... he is the beginning, the end, AND everhthing in between. Whatever ANYONE does, is what he does.... so the myth goes. BTW, thanks for that site you posted! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dhampir Posted July 27, 2006 Share Posted July 27, 2006 did you know that their seems to be a three part aspect to deity in many religions? Yes. However, nothing like the three is one is three deity of christianity, which was invented merely to satisfy the proposition that Jesus was fully man and fully god. Can't say as any other deities had this problem that I'm aware of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amanda Posted July 27, 2006 Share Posted July 27, 2006 did you know that their seems to be a three part aspect to deity in many religions? Yes. However, nothing like the three is one is three deity of christianity, which was invented merely to satisfy the proposition that Jesus was fully man and fully god. Can't say as any other deities had this problem that I'm aware of. Dhampir, yes, you're right! And EVERYTHING "Jesus" did, we too can do. He was supposedly the role model for us all... meaning we are all equal to God, right? "Jesus" who thought it NOT robbery to be equal to God. I keep thinking... this is the first movement towards the Atheist movement, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mythra Posted July 27, 2006 Author Share Posted July 27, 2006 yes, you're right! And EVERYTHING "Jesus" did, we too can do. He was supposedly the role model for us all... You betcha. That's the same thing the white man thought when he came out west in America. If Yahweh/Jesus can wipe out all the nasty, mean, evil Canaanites, then it stands to reason that he would want the nasty, mean, evil red man gotten rid of as well. Damn savages, anyway. Sorry, Amanda. I'm an atheist. You don't expect me to ever look on the positive side of jesus or christianity - do you???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fweethawt Posted July 27, 2006 Share Posted July 27, 2006 Mythra, there is indeed a positive side to this... Dhampir, yes, you're right! And EVERYTHING "Jesus" did, we too can do. I'm gonna go out to the lake tomorrow so that I can walk on water! That oughta mess with them dudes on their jet-skis, no? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white_raven23 Posted July 27, 2006 Share Posted July 27, 2006 Mythra, there is indeed a positive side to this... Dhampir, yes, you're right! And EVERYTHING "Jesus" did, we too can do. I'm gonna go out to the lake tomorrow so that I can walk on water! That oughta mess with them dudes on their jet-skis, no? Screw that! I'll be over here turning water into wine! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotBlinded Posted July 27, 2006 Share Posted July 27, 2006 Y'all are just a bunch of dang literalists! hehehe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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