Are You A True Christian(tm)?

[Antlerman]

Antlerman, Jesus is God in human flesh. Jesus is not only called the Son of God, but He is, in fact, God Himself {Jn. 3:16; 10:30}. The early Christians also knew and believed Jesus was the Son of God { Phil. 2:6 Col. 1:15}. The Christian doctrine is Jesus is the Son of God. Jesus could not have been just a prophet, or else He would not be the perfect sacrifice for sin, because prophets sin. Jesus commited no sin {Heb. 4:15}.

 

<Sermon omitted for mind-numbing irrelevance to discussions with ExChristians >

 

I depress the brakes, push in the clutch, and down shift from 5th into 1st gear.

 

Ok, let’s go back to what you totally ignored in my previous post that I went to length to discuss with you, and focus on it together until you offer a real thought of your own before we proceed in examining anything else you want to say to us. This is a reasonable expectation on my part, isn’t it? It is part of respectful dialog, isn’t it?

 

You say, “Jesus is God in human flesh”, but you ignored anything both MWC and I referenced about early church councils having to be convened to settle disagreements amongst the early Christians as to nature of Jesus. Go back and re-read those posts and answer this question: How do you account for the discrepancies in beliefs that would require a group of men to debate and then vote on what was supposedly infallible truth? Again the fact remains, because of the fact of the councils having to be called, the early Christians had different views. You cannot state “Jesus is God in human flesh” based on the Bible alone. They couldn’t, how can you?

 

Please answer these questions. To fail to do so shows disrespect to us, and a lack of integrity on your part.

[Reverend AtheiStar]

Reverend Atheistar, we are not to just go around picking up snakes to prove we have faith. That is like putting God to the test {Matthew 4:7}. It's a sin.

 

It's not a test. It's a guarantee! It says these things will follow those that believe. It says nothing about testing anything. It basically states if you're a believer you can and will do it. So again, where are your snakes? Where is your poison kool aid? Where is your resume of healed people? What's that? You have none of this? I guess you're just not a True Christian™.

 

And I do know for certain what will happen to me after death, and there is no need for me to be afraid. I know that I will be with my Master, the Lord Jesus, along with all others who accept Him as Lord and Savior of their lives.

 

Whether you know for certain or not is quite irrelavent. People believe wrong things for certain all the time. Many thousands believed the Earth was the center of a universe that rotated around it. And why not? The Bible says it does! Who would dare question this god-given knowledge? Well, like most things found in the Bible, science. And, as we all know, science won. It's a pattern you see over and over and over with your tired mythology. The same has happened, to my satisfaction, with your afterlife and soul mythology. It's imaginary.

 

Master? So you admit you're a slave? And you're proud of it?! How odd! I'm happy to be free, myself. I have no "master," nor would I ever want one. I'm not a piece of property, I'm an individual with rights!

[Reverend AtheiStar]

All those views are biblically correct. Jesus is with God and He is God. It is good to heed the teaching of Jesus, Paul, and the other Apostles because they were moved by the Holy Spirit to write what they wrote. So, it is right to believe them.

 

Oh boy, it's the wacky trinitarian belief! LMAO!!! If Jesus is God then who was he talking to on the cross? lol...

 

"Me, why have you forsaken me?"

 

God came to Earth to father himself, so he could talk to himself and glorify himself, had himself killed and then acsended to meet himself. Kooky, anyone? You know, if you saw this very same thing in any other religion you'd recognize it for what it was. Look outside your little box, please!

 

Notblindedbytheblight, I am not being arrogant or prideful. I am telling you what the Bible says. Every Christian is indwelt by God the Holy Spirit {1 Cor. 6:19}. Jesus' mesage was to all. But only those who accept Him will be saved, and those who do not accept Him will be condemned {Jn. 3:17-18}.

 

Woo hoo! The Earth's current population is 6.5 billion. Christians number at only about 2 billion. That's 4.5 billion people going to Hell! Ah yeah! It's going to be a Luau like no other. Sorry, you won't be there. lol... But hey, maybe you'll just be late to the party.

[Amanda]

What basis have you in supposing it's a metaphor? It makes no sense that it would be so. These are the signs that will follow those who believe. Metaphors are hardly impressive enough to qualify as signs. Signs are bold and impressive! Say, like really drinking posion, really dancing with real snakes or really healing the sick.

Reverend, much of the whole Bible is allegories and metaphors. One insight of this interpretation can be seen if you look at the manuscript from which the KJV was taken... there it becomes much more obvious. The KJV with Strong Numbers translates it:

 

Mark 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

 

An example, the definition of serpent found here says:

with the ancients, the serpent was an emblem of cunning and wisdom.

 

The word drink found here, is defined:

figuratively, to receive into the soul what serves to refresh strengthen, nourish it unto life eternal

 

What does being the Son of God mean? That he is the 2nd person in a Trinity? That he was the highest created being in heaven come to earth? That he was God the Father in human flesh? That he was a noble man given a title of honor, like we are all sons of God? Whose version of these different understanding is the correct one that your salvation is dependent on?

Antlerman... of course I don't think anyone's salvation is depended on such things, so I'll let Scott answer that part... but I did want to mention to you that being called a son of God seemed fairly common then. I heard that Ceasar claimed to be the son of Apollo.

 

All those views are biblically correct. Jesus is with God and He is God. It is good to heed the teaching of Jesus, Paul, and the other Apostles because they were moved by the Holy Spirit to write what they wrote. So, it is right to believe them.

Scott... Please listen to Antlerman when he asks you to stop quoting the Bible in your responses, and to say what YOU think it means! Is there anything wrong with that request? We want to hear your own reasoning for what you believe, instead of what the church told you... that's all.

[mwc]

All those views are biblically correct. Jesus is with God and He is God. It is good to heed the teaching of Jesus, Paul, and the other Apostles because they were moved by the Holy Spirit to write what they wrote. So, it is right to believe them.

What you say here ultimately means nothing because, in the end, it is circular.

 

mwc

[Reverend AtheiStar]

Reverend, much of the whole Bible is allegories and metaphors.

 

And? Does this mean that all of it is meant to be taken this way? To quote Ken Ham of AiG, "It could also mean what it says." Imagine that!

[All Gods Fail]

Scott... Please listen to Antlerman when he asks you to stop quoting the Bible in your responses, and to say what YOU think it means! Is there anything wrong with that request? We want to hear your own reasoning for what you believe, instead of what the church told you... that's all.

 

I wouldn't hold your breath, Amanda. He likely doesn't have any reasoning that he came up with himself - all he's done is parrot what he's been taught.

 

Using reason tends to lead you away from xtianity, not towards it.

[Reverend AtheiStar]

Scott... Please listen to Antlerman when he asks you to stop quoting the Bible in your responses, and to say what YOU think it means! Is there anything wrong with that request? We want to hear your own reasoning for what you believe, instead of what the church told you... that's all.

 

I wouldn't hold your breath, Amanda. He likely doesn't have any reasoning that he came up with himself - all he's done is parrot what he's been taught.

 

Using reason tends to lead you away from xtianity, not towards it.

 

This guy qualifies as a believerbot!

[Thackerie]

All those views are biblically correct. Jesus is with God and He is God. It is good to heed the teaching of Jesus, Paul, and the other Apostles because they were moved by the Holy Spirit to write what they wrote. So, it is right to believe them.

What you say here ultimately means nothing because, in the end, it is circular.

 

mwc

[Kuroikaze]

Well, to be fair, scott is only 18...I believed many of the same things as him at that age...I also believed I was an expert on the bible and everything else as well.

 

Of course at the ripe old age of 28 hehe I can see how ignorant I was back then....I'll probably feel the same way about the me of today when I'm 40.

 

The point is, Scott still has a lot of growning up to do (though I'm sure he thinks he is a complete adult now)

 

Life has a way of kicking you in the balls and letting you know its not nearly as simple as you think it is when your 18. He'll most likely find out in a few years.

[SkepticOfBible]

The mark of a true Christian is believing in Jesus Christ as the only way to God and Salvation, and accepting Him as their Lord and Savior, along with repenting from every known sin. That verse is true, Christians can do things in the name of Christ. This, however, does not mean we are to be stupid about it and go looking for snakes to pick up, and demons to cast out.

 

Gee, did you make sure you told Pentacostal Churches and the TBN about that, cause they do it all the time. You know the casting out demons and healing.

 

 

It's actually quite possible that demons exist. I believe 100% that demons exist, because the Bible teaches it. However, aside from the Bible, how many witnesses would you, personally, need that have seen something demonic, or the casting out of demons?

 

Then you should not have any problem showing biblical evidence from the Old Testament, which testifies about demons.

 

Seems demon seems to appear, just about the same time Jesus started to exorcise them.

 

The answer to this question is not a yes or no answer. There are some basic Christian doctrines, that unless you do believe it, you are not a Christian at all. For example, Jesus Christ is the Son of God. That is a solid doctrine of the Christianity, and for a so-called Christian to claim Jesus as being anything other than the Son of God is heresy.

 

May I ask who decides these Christian doctrine? Who decides which are essential and which are not? Does the NT gives a list of basic Christian doctrine?Or is it decided by men?

 

You say that one of them is "Jesus Christ is the son of God", but you are aware that even Mormons and JW even affirm to this core belief. So I suppose they are true christian right?

 

Jesus is not only called the Son of God, but He is, in fact, God Himself {Jn. 3:16; 10:30}

 

Please check out this thread, before commenting more on this issue

 

http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?show...10823&st=60

 

You are ignoring a number of key verses which reject this theory

 

Jesus commited no sin

 

Aahh, too bad, when the Jews read about him in the Nt, they seem to think otherwise.

 

http://www.messiahtruth.com/sinless.html

 

Because God loves us so much and didn't want us to go to Hell

 

Please demonstrate the concept of Hell from the Old Testament

 

 

Because the wages of sin is death, someone needed to die

 

Wow, God in the Old Testament seems to think otherwise

 

Jer 31:30

But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge.

 

Ezek 18:20-28

The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

 

So what happened, did God change his mind?

[Amanda]

Reverend, much of the whole Bible is allegories and metaphors.

 

And? Does this mean that all of it is meant to be taken this way? To quote Ken Ham of AiG, "It could also mean what it says." Imagine that!

 

Hey Reverend... great humor! I still understand your point though.

 

However, there are more than one way to say something... and sometimes a presentation in which one has to use their brain more to understand it, causes an inner transformation to happen on a deeper level.

 

Allegories and metaphors can be very powerful. Especially back then, when they were not nearly as articulate as us, now. Even today metaphors and allegories can say some things more efficiently and proficiently, than a direct statement. Sometimes making a statement, just suggests there has been a revelation in the life of the one speaking...

 

However, an allegory or metaphor helps fascilitate a revelation in the life of the one listening. Imagine that!

[Guest my10thao]

Scott

 

I m new here too, but i don't have a religion, i think i do though but i don't go around preaching and trying to make other people understand.

 

If i were you i would try to answer these friends on here their questions to the best of your knowledge and have a mature level discussion.

 

anyway.... you fail to give any good answers and i m already disappointed.

[Reverend AtheiStar]

Reverend, much of the whole Bible is allegories and metaphors.

 

And? Does this mean that all of it is meant to be taken this way? To quote Ken Ham of AiG, "It could also mean what it says." Imagine that!

 

Hey Reverend... great humor! I still understand your point though.

 

However, there are more than one way to say something... and sometimes a presentation in which one has to use their brain more to understand it, causes an inner transformation to happen on a deeper level.

 

Allegories and metaphors can be very powerful. Especially back then, when they were not nearly as articulate as us, now. Even today metaphors and allegories can say some things more efficiently and proficiently, than a direct statement. Sometimes making a statement, just suggests there has been a revelation in the life of the one speaking...

 

However, an allegory or metaphor helps fascilitate a revelation in the life of the one listening. Imagine that!

 

And again (in the hyperactive Ken Ham repetitious style): But it could also mean what it says! lol... All that you say is true, to be sure, but the fact remains you could, and most likely are, wrong. The verse just loses such an incredible amount when it gets reduced to mere metaphor. It doesn't make any sense in the face of magical, miraculous Christainity. In this mythology, miracles happen all the time. Gallons of poison is guzzled and people survive! Amen! Ten snakes bite the same person on their jugulars and the just laugh and say "That tickles!" Hallelujah! The Christian says one prayer, touches a cancer patient, an AIDS patient and a 9 year heroin addict and they're all healed of their afflictions! Praise the Lord, brother! It's just soooo obvious this verse is meant to be taken literally it's silly to argue otherwise.

[Amanda]

And again (in the hyperactive Ken Ham repetitious style): But it could also mean what it says! lol... All that you say is true, to be sure, but the fact remains you could, and most likely are, wrong. The verse just loses such an incredible amount when it gets reduced to mere metaphor. It doesn't make any sense in the face of magical, miraculous Christainity. In this mythology, miracles happen all the time. Gallons of poison is guzzled and people survive! Amen! Ten snakes bite the same person on their jugulars and the just laugh and say "That tickles!" Hallelujah! The Christian says one prayer, touches a cancer patient, an AIDS patient and a 9 year heroin addict and they're all healed of their afflictions! Praise the Lord, brother! It's just soooo obvious this verse is meant to be taken literally it's silly to argue otherwise.

Reverend Atheistar... you see... it just doesn't make sense UNLESS it is taken as a metaphor... right?

 

I don't think the initial movement was about miraculous magic, no more than when we say it's a miracle how the doctors separated conjoined twins.

 

Now, if they would have had you back then recording things in empirical scientific details, we wouldn't be in this fundamental mess... now would we?

 

[Reverend AtheiStar]

And again (in the hyperactive Ken Ham repetitious style): But it could also mean what it says! lol... All that you say is true, to be sure, but the fact remains you could, and most likely are, wrong. The verse just loses such an incredible amount when it gets reduced to mere metaphor. It doesn't make any sense in the face of magical, miraculous Christainity. In this mythology, miracles happen all the time. Gallons of poison is guzzled and people survive! Amen! Ten snakes bite the same person on their jugulars and the just laugh and say "That tickles!" Hallelujah! The Christian says one prayer, touches a cancer patient, an AIDS patient and a 9 year heroin addict and they're all healed of their afflictions! Praise the Lord, brother! It's just soooo obvious this verse is meant to be taken literally it's silly to argue otherwise.

Reverend Atheistar... you see... it just doesn't make sense UNLESS it is taken as a metaphor... right?

 

I don't think the initial movement was about miraculous magic, no more than when we say it's a miracle how the doctors separated conjoined twins.

 

Now, if they would have had you back then recording things in empirical scientific details, we wouldn't be in this fundamental mess... now would we?

 

 

It makes perfect sense from a miraculous/mythical mindset. This is precisely how they people think. From that mindset it doesn't make any sense that it would be metaphor. Literal fits the profile to a tee!

 

Magic is what attracts the masses. Kids and adults alike love tricks of this nature an the imaginative experiences that come along with it.

 

At the very least, I wish the Bible had been written by extremely anal lawyers who would expand each verse by several chapters to be sure that each one was understood exactly the way it was supposed to. Of course the book would be so big that it'd look like the Encyclopedia Britannica, but at least the message would come across corectly!

[Amanda]

It makes perfect sense from a miraculous/mythical mindset. This is precisely how they people think. From that mindset it doesn't make any sense that it would be metaphor. Literal fits the profile to a tee!

 

Magic is what attracts the masses. Kids and adults alike love tricks of this nature an the imaginative experiences that come along with it.

 

Reverend, maybe we are just having a communication problem? I think that by today's popular biblical interpretation, you are absolutely right! However, I think that the initial movement was not like this. If anything, I think the initial movement (NT) was a step towards Atheism, being self empowered, god in us and moving through us, self empowerment, having integrity for the sake of just being a person of substance, yet... perhaps a little different than some Atheistic beliefs in that it is still seeking to embody that spirit of what we come to define as sacred and giving reverence to it.

 

You're right about magic attracting the masses, predominantly children, and perhaps that is why it says that when one is a child they think like a child. Yet, when one is a man, they should put childish things away.

[Reverend AtheiStar]

It makes perfect sense from a miraculous/mythical mindset. This is precisely how they people think. From that mindset it doesn't make any sense that it would be metaphor. Literal fits the profile to a tee!

 

Magic is what attracts the masses. Kids and adults alike love tricks of this nature an the imaginative experiences that come along with it.

 

Reverend, maybe we are just having a communication problem? I think that by today's popular biblical interpretation, you are absolutely right! However, I think that the initial movement was not like this. If anything, I think the initial movement (NT) was a step towards Atheism, being self empowered, god in us and moving through us, self empowerment, having integrity for the sake of just being a person of substance, yet... perhaps a little different than some Atheistic beliefs in that it is still seeking to embody that spirit of what we come to define as sacred and giving reverence to it.

 

You're right about magic attracting the masses, predominantly children, and perhaps that is why it says that when one is a child they think like a child. Yet, when one is a man, they should put childish things away.

 

What evidence do you have to support this view?

[Amanda]

What evidence do you have to support this view?

Reverend, I'm not sure of which view you are speaking. If it is about the intent of the initial movement, then there is the research of the manuscript of which the KJV was taken. Earlier in this thread I sited references inferring the metaphorical meanings from that manuscript, especially as one notes how these words have evolved.

 

I know that there are no available primary documentation, so that would leave both of us without complete certainty of what they originally meant... rather it was literal or metaphorical. It just seems to me that it is totally rediculous when taken literally, and when seen as a metaphor, it takes on a valuable message for those times.

 

BTW, I'm just curious to know if you were ever of the Christian fundamentalist persuasion? It would be hard to imagine, but I suppose anything is possible.

[Amanda]

Gosh Reverend, I just realized that you may be speaking of the emphasis of the NT teachings toward Atheism, as my view to validate.

 

The OT saw god out there somewhere, and could only commune with him/her/it in the temple. The NT teachings emphasize god within us, and works through us... hence, the kingdom of god is within us. If god is in his kingdom and the kingdom is within me... where is god? Also, there are verses that say, we too are gods. How about the saying to all of us, physicians heal yourself! Madeline O'Hare's teachings seem to be right in line with the NT teachings. I think god is within us and as Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs states... it is this Self Actualized state, that I think we attribute as god. Maybe it is....