WakingUp Posted August 16, 2006 Share Posted August 16, 2006 Though I don't think the Bible is the divinely revealed Word of God, I don't think it is the complete fabrication of someone's mind either. I believe there was a person named Jesus. He wasn't created out of thin air. Some of his teachings were wonderful. Other teachings were hard to understand. Other teachings didn't even make sense. Some teachings were false. Do you throw away all the teachings of Jesus when you deconvert or do you sift for the nuggets? Who do you think Jesus REALLY was? Josh McDowell says he was either who he said he was-God's son- or he was a liar or lunatic? Is there something else he could have been? I'm trying to find a place for Jesus as a good person, sort of like Ghandi or Mother Theresa. WakingUp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuroikaze Posted August 16, 2006 Share Posted August 16, 2006 Though I don't think the Bible is the divinely revealed Word of God, I don't think it is the complete fabrication of someone's mind either. I believe there was a person named Jesus. He wasn't created out of thin air. Some of his teachings were wonderful. Other teachings were hard to understand. Other teachings didn't even make sense. Some teachings were false. Do you throw away all the teachings of Jesus when you deconvert or do you sift for the nuggets? Who do you think Jesus REALLY was? Josh McDowell says he was either who he said he was-God's son- or he was a liar or lunatic? Is there something else he could have been? I'm trying to find a place for Jesus as a good person, sort of like Ghandi or Mother Theresa. WakingUp Josh McDowell presents a false dicotomy in my opinion. Have you read any books on modern biblical scholarship? I'd suggest any thing from Bart Ehrman (lost christianities is good) The bible has been changed quite a bit over the first 400 years of the chrurch. In all likelyhood the person of Jesus in the bible was not one person but is a mix of stories and myths about several people...many of the stories were exagerated greatly before they were writen down or changed in other ways to make them fit the narritive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WakingUp Posted August 16, 2006 Author Share Posted August 16, 2006 Josh McDowell presents a false dicotomy in my opinion. Have you read any books on modern biblical scholarship? I'd suggest any thing from Bart Ehrman (lost christianities is good) The bible has been changed quite a bit over the first 400 years of the chrurch. I have read "Misquoting Jesus" by Erhman. Quite an eye-opener. In all likelyhood the person of Jesus in the bible was not one person but is a mix of stories and myths about several people...many of the stories were exagerated greatly before they were writen down or changed in other ways to make them fit the narritive. I can see how some myths would surround the "person" of Jesus but I find it hard to believe there wasn't an actual person that the myths were built around. Perhaps I should do a little research over at the "Jesus Seminar" site. WakingUp Hmmmm, I was trying to use color to distinguish my response to your quotes. Didn't work. Still trying to figure how things work on this forum. WakingUp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuroikaze Posted August 16, 2006 Share Posted August 16, 2006 I'm not nessarally saying the myths didn't develop around a person...that IS a posiblity, but considering the time frame I find it unlikely that there wasn't a person... So what are we left with then? Was it one person or several people? condiering the fact that the Jesus in the gospels drasticly changes his personality from one passage to another I'm of the opinion that the myths came from several people (it was common for Jews in the first century to name their child Jesus in hopes that he would become the messiah, and Josephus himself records the actions of several messianic characters in the first century. Even if all of the stories were about one person what then? the myths have changed the story far enough to make him a totally different person than he was. so was he a good man, a bad man? was he some sort of separationist preacher like the Essenes? or a Rabbi or attracted a large following? Or maybe a Pharisee? at this point we will probably never know...to much time has passed, the truth is no longer seperatable from the fiction. Thats why I don't think much about who he is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Celsus Posted August 16, 2006 Share Posted August 16, 2006 Though I don't think the Bible is the divinely revealed Word of God, I don't think it is the complete fabrication of someone's mind either. I believe there was a person named Jesus. He wasn't created out of thin air. Some of his teachings were wonderful. Other teachings were hard to understand. Other teachings didn't even make sense. Some teachings were false. Do you throw away all the teachings of Jesus when you deconvert or do you sift for the nuggets? Who do you think Jesus REALLY was? Josh McDowell says he was either who he said he was-God's son- or he was a liar or lunatic? Is there something else he could have been? I'm trying to find a place for Jesus as a good person, sort of like Ghandi or Mother Theresa. WakingUp He could be a Legend (which the whole story conforms to, by the way). He could be a mythologized person, like George Washington became. or he could be fictional. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Variable Posted August 16, 2006 Share Posted August 16, 2006 Good question. Jesus (if he existed) seems to really fit the bill for an evangelical essene. But I've heard all kinds of explanations. There was a book written recently that said Jesus was crazy man, who thought he was the Messiah, and orchestrated his life in order to fulfill certain Old Testament prophecies. In the end commiting suicide in order to do so. Then there have claims by New Agers that Jesus himself was some kind of sorcerer who studied magic while in Egypt. For example "magi", the wise men that visited Jesus, was the word used for Zorastrian priests schooled in sorcerery. For some reason, they fail to mention that in the Christmas plays. But with the Romans/Greeks is was custom, when finding an extraordinary human being, to claim they were the son of a god (Alexander the Great, Socrates) and their birth had someone been prophecied. For Socrates they claimed after he was born, bees settled on his lips to prophecy his future words which would flow like honey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sage Nabooru Posted August 16, 2006 Share Posted August 16, 2006 I believe Jesus taught a lot of good things. His own personal character seems to be of an honest person with great faith in the divine but not unhuman. In the Bible he seems to go back and forth between "loving" and "damning". I personally feel that there's a fairly good chance that he was an honest guy with a great message, whose later followers totally distorted his message into one of "join us or suffer". Perhaps they were so impressed with exaggerated stories of his greatness and kindess that they thought that he was entirely uniquely God, and that no other person could ever climb to such great heights. The point that Jesus pointed out the hypocrisy of the Pharisees only proved to them that Jesus was primarily a judge. It could have been very well that they added their own thoughts on this to what would become the Bible, putting their words of "accept this or burn in hell" into Jesus's mouth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vampyre Posted August 16, 2006 Share Posted August 16, 2006 How DARE all of you make fun of my friend Jesus! He is a totaly great guy, he helps me work of my car, we play video games, smoke pot... What's that? Oh... Jesus was not real in the Bible, period. For me, accepting that the Jesus in the Bible was real is like saying Hercules is real, or the Punisher. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knightley Posted August 16, 2006 Share Posted August 16, 2006 at this point we will probably never know...to much time has passed, the truth is no longer seperatable from the fiction. Thats why I don't think much about who he is. My sentiments exactly. I think jesus is a myth, in order for me to believe that there was a guy named jesus I would need evidence. No evidence, no belief, that's how I see things now. Having believed blindly for so long as a xian, there's really no point in believing in anything without evidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leftofpunk Posted August 16, 2006 Share Posted August 16, 2006 Ummm...there's no proof there ever WAS a Jesus that did those things. A lot of his basic teachings are found in other religions as well. It's nothing unique. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaura Posted August 17, 2006 Share Posted August 17, 2006 Actually, I think there are two ways of looking at the post question? I think Jesus/ Yeshuah might have existed, but in my mind as a wantering Jewish rabbi. There were hundreds of wandering rabbis at that time. No biggie. Where Jesus (the alleged son of God) really enters my life is in the laws, and the government that is supposedly separate, and in the lives of most people around me. There "He" makes a huge impact, and not a pleasant one either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taphophilia Posted August 17, 2006 Share Posted August 17, 2006 I think that a lot of the problem is that we never understood any other religions. If you understand Eastern religions and then read the Bible there are a many of those concepts in it. It's not like it was just written out of thin air which is what we were taught when we were Christians. Pagan Origins of the Christ Myth This will get you started understanding that Christianity is a first century religion, derived from other first century religions. As far as Jesus existing, I think it's probable. Any evidence of who or what exactly Jesus was, may have been destroyed in 70AD during the first of the Jewish wars when Jerusalem was razed. However, if he did exist, I think he may have been a minor character that a myth and legend formed around after he died and not noticed during his lifetime. Taph Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quicksand Posted August 17, 2006 Share Posted August 17, 2006 Josh McDowell says he was either who he said he was-God's son- or he was a liar or lunatic? Legend Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lycorth Posted August 17, 2006 Share Posted August 17, 2006 Who do you think Jesus REALLY was? Josh McDowell says he was either who he said he was-God's son- or he was a liar or lunatic? Is there something else he could have been? I'm trying to find a place for Jesus as a good person, sort of like Ghandi or Mother Theresa. Jebus doesn't factor into my life at all. I have the Gods of my Ancestors and the spirituality they developed to defer to, if I wish. I also have my own mind and my ability to think and reason and imagine, which propels and guides how I view my default spirituality as well as everything else around me. Why do I need Jebus or need to make room for something I don't believe in? To me, either Jebus was a complete invention of human brains, or an evil spirit. If Jebus exists outside of human imaginations, then I believe very strongly that he was/is an evil spirit, as only a malevolent being could've influenced the writers of the Holah Babble to pen down the sick trash they did and future Xians to invent the religions they did. But, be he evil spirit or figment of the imagination, simply not giving the idea of Jebus any more thought in my life is the best thing to do. Jebus just isn't a part of my life, and shouldn't be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astreja Posted August 17, 2006 Share Posted August 17, 2006 He was originally a rabbi who studied Buddhism and integrated it into his teachings. Died an unnatural death, but not on the cross. Part of his legend got muddled up with Greek and Roman god-men, and here we are. The only part of the Jesus teachings that resonates with me at all is the "I was hungry and you fed me..." part. And that's hardly unique to Christianity -- It's simple kindness and compassion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crunk Bishop Posted August 17, 2006 Share Posted August 17, 2006 to me, 90% of Jesus' so-called good teachings had already been said by the great rabbi Hillel two hundred years prior and circulated widely in Jewish circles. i don't think Jesus necessarily studied Buddhism. he could have gotten the same teachings from Greek Stoic philosophy in his backyard. but, maybe some Buddhists came his way on the trade roads... I don't think Jesus ever traveled to India because he was a "working class" person from Nazareth. I think the comparison to Davy Crockett is great. I just read this book by James Crisp called Sleuthing the Alamo where he writes about the historical controversy surrounding the death of Davy Crockett as "hero" or "captive." People often make up stories (hagiography) about revered historical figures. i think Jesus was a real historical person and a charming peripatetic witch doctor. he got in trouble with the Romans when he caused that ruckus in the Temple... because the Temple was also the bank. Legal trouble... got Jesus crucified as a would-be insurrectionist. after his death... the "Christ-myth" that Tapho was referring to was superimposed onto Jesus. Heroes never die bad deaths!! as an ex-Christian, Jesus' teachings still come to mind alot and I see examples of them all over the culture. there's really no getting away from it all, but i don't regard Jesus as any kind of religious authority, I make my own ethical decisions. and I believe that 100% of the things that Christian say about him are not true. Jesus' spirit is alive and well today, we just call it "terrorism." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taphophilia Posted August 17, 2006 Share Posted August 17, 2006 Heroes never die bad deaths!! No, but gods did. It's a theme throughout ancient history and pre-history of dying and rising gods. It had to do with an agricutural based society of the seasons changing. Primitive man ascribed things they didn't understand to the gods they believed in. The seeming death of winter and the rebirth of spring were an inherited myth in the death and resurection of Jesus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crunk Bishop Posted August 17, 2006 Share Posted August 17, 2006 yeah, but the gods never "really" died because they came back to life in cycles of perpetuity. the significance of Jesus for most Christians is not that he died but that he is "alive" today. but absolutely yes, the dying and rising god motif was common throughout the ancient world and is the model which Paul appropriated and superimposed onto the dead human Jesus to create the idea of the risen "Christ." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted August 17, 2006 Share Posted August 17, 2006 Jesus, the man, is fiction. As others have pointed out, teachings attributed to him can be found in many other places from sources much older. Jesus, the symbol, provides humanity with a few useless platitudes and the god-awful teaching of hell fire. I have no use for that asshole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest holiday_premiere Posted August 21, 2006 Share Posted August 21, 2006 I believe in Jesus the man but I think his story is so covered in horseshit I will never actual get a factual representation of him. Who knows? It's easier to know about Gandhi because he was never really a strong religious figure. And I'm back and forth with him as well...his selflessness is somewhat disconcerting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lycorth Posted August 21, 2006 Share Posted August 21, 2006 And I'm back and forth with him as well...his selflessness is somewhat disconcerting. What selflessness? According to the Babble, Jebus demanded our undivided loyalty, even to the point of turning our backs on our families and loved ones, with eternal torture as the price for failure. And, according to Xian ideology, Jebus is one and the same with the Father and the Holy Spurt, meaning that the same god who committed the sick atrocities of the Old Testament is the same god who preached the self-righteous Spermin' on the Mount. I don't see anything selfless about that jerk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sage Nabooru Posted August 21, 2006 Share Posted August 21, 2006 I think he meant Gandhi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lycorth Posted August 21, 2006 Share Posted August 21, 2006 Ah, yes - I just wanted an excuse to say "Spermin' on the Mount" if truth be told Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurari Posted August 21, 2006 Share Posted August 21, 2006 I'm inclined to believe Jesus of Nazereth is fictional. "Jesus" was a title, not a name, and there were lots of messiahs and "Jesus of something or other" running around at the time. I think the message of practicing the Golden Rule and emphasizing loving and caring for yourself and everyone around you is a great message. Working to keep honor within yourself and your society and being true to your beliefs is also a great message. But they didn't originate with Jesus. These are very old messages that were handed down in thousands of cultures around the world before and after Jesus and even in cultures that never heard of him. I think the Bible is just a book of stories like Aesop's Fables and Grimm's Fairy Tales. Those all had messages and morals within them as well...all teaching basically the same things. So I have to say no, Jesus doesn't factor into my life in any way other than I can't seem to stop hearing about him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garrisonjj Posted August 22, 2006 Share Posted August 22, 2006 Though I don't think the Bible is the divinely revealed Word of God, I don't think it is the complete fabrication of someone's mind either. I believe there was a person named Jesus. He wasn't created out of thin air. Some of his teachings were wonderful. Other teachings were hard to understand. Other teachings didn't even make sense. Some teachings were false. Do you throw away all the teachings of Jesus when you deconvert or do you sift for the nuggets? Who do you think Jesus REALLY was? Josh McDowell says he was either who he said he was-God's son- or he was a liar or lunatic? Is there something else he could have been? I'm trying to find a place for Jesus as a good person, sort of like Ghandi or Mother Theresa. WakingUp Fuckin god/jeezus fairy tales is completely irrelevant to life! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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