F U Mum! F U

[Matt]

HELP im going crazy

 

Far out. Today I was showing mum bible contridictions and evils. She seemed to have a fukin idiotic answer to every one, the crazy thing is that she truelly beleived them. Then I gave her a hypothetical situation where she cannot use bible versus. I bring out the. If you were all powerfull all knowing and you could stop all the pain, famine, war etc in the world would you do it. She replies with Christian quotes which i go in a fit of rage to make her give a normal non biblical response. She replies with I need to know the history. Then i give another Hypothetical situation. I asked if she create a being knowing it would 'become' evil and do evil even if your original intention was for it to be perfect. She kept smiling etc etc and was saying it is humans faults it not gods, anything but gods fault. Then her final reply is Do you know gods mind/way?.......Then I cant do shit all to hold an arguement when my mother is not using any logic but giving stupid replies that are just plain immoral. A person immiedate response should be to end all the pain in the world but further more...PREVENT IT...by not creating a being that would turn evil and you knew it.

 

Thanks guys i just had to vent like crazy. She just left home for the shops.....Im sitting here with heart going crazy. Im just so angry at the immoarlity of it.

[Amethyst]

Fundies are like that. Most of them are never going to deconvert. Not short of having a labotomy, anyway.

 

Hmmm. You said mum. Are you British?

 

Anyway, I've learned that it's useless to debate with fundies, unless you just want to bang your head against a brick wall or two.

[Matt]

Hey guyz. Sorry about not changing my profile. Im Australian (Luckily a quite liberal country, you should come visit some time)....Yes i love my mum a lot but theirs a part of me hates the Christian aspect of her. I love her for everything else, but when 'God' comes into it, all hell breaks loose.

 

Btw how to i change the little yellow sperm thingy?

[Fweethawt]

Btw how to i change the little yellow sperm thingy?

The webmaster has to change it or take it away.

[Open_Minded]

Hey guyz. Sorry about not changing my profile. Im Australian (Luckily a quite liberal country, you should come visit some time)....Yes i love my mum a lot but theirs a part of me hates the Christian aspect of her. I love her for everything else, but when 'God' comes into it, all hell breaks loose.

 

Btw how to i change the little yellow sperm thingy?

 

Hello Matt:

 

I'm a mom of young adult children.

 

Although we've never argued about religion (I'm pretty liberal, so is my husband, and our children have always had permission to explore their own path when it comes to religion) my children and I have had disagreements about other things. It's just part of life in a family.

 

What I can say is this. Your Mom is probably hearing and thinking more about what you say than you (or she) may be aware of.

 

I often say that nothing in life has made me grow up as fast as my children have made me grow up. I've changed and grown and matured because of my children. Because I've had to be responsible of their welfare, because of my love for them and because of their love for me. But, also because of things that they have said to me when we are in disagreement.

 

Now - my children and I will never fully agree about some issues. But, we have learned to respect each others position.

 

We've learned to keep loving each other and seeing the good in each other and accepting each other as human. It's clear you love your Mum and she loves you - it will fall into place in time.

 

And trust that her love for you will force her to at least think about things she's never given herself permission to think about before. She may not change her mind - but she will probably grow to respect where you are at with your own decisions.

[Lizard]

Matt..you are 17, in high school and living in Mum's house.

 

Why would you even try to start arguments with her about her beliefs, in her house?

 

Its one thing to discuss rationally, another to attack your own mother while living under her roof.

 

I would not agree with her beliefs, but then again, I don't live in her house and she doesn't pay my bills either.

 

Put yourself in her shoes for just a moment. Now, consider a few things. She gave birth to you, raised you, provided for you. And then you turn on her, mocking her beliefs and calling them immoral. How do you feel when she does this to you?

 

My suggestion is to wait until you are out of her house, finish growing up...and learn to get along. Find the boundaries and don't cross them.

 

All of your logical arguments are not going to convince her she is wrong if her belief is strong. Remember, its a belief based on emotion, not logic. Learn more and pick the battles, but not for the sake of battling. That just creates unnecessary stress that is not good for your relationship with your Mum.

[vampyre]

I'm going to go off of what Lizard has to say here. You are not in a position of power, as in you have no where to go.

 

Also, why is it any of your damn business what she believes? Unless she starts ramming Jesus shit down your throat then you should keep your opinions to yourself. Don't start the fights and then get mad when she doesn't buy into what you have to say.

 

On that point, becoming angry makes you look like a child and like someone whom the devil is tormenting. It doesn't make you look intelligent, it doesn't make it look like you know what you are talking about.

 

Just some thoughts.

[LosingMyReligion]

Totally disagree. Just because He lives under his mother's roof doesn't mean he cannot express his opinions and his beliefs.

 

He didn't choose to be born. And by law she is required to give him: food, shelter, education, and all that other stuff. And part of her responsibility, as the parent, is to raise a child that can think for himself and etc...So I believe that he is in his rights to challenge his mother.

 

However, there is a better and more tactful way that he can do it. Maybe just tell her that he does not believe in that system of thought anymore. You don't have to out and out attack christianity to get a point across...

But having to be silent just because you live with your parents is insane. That is definitely the old Christian adage, "A child ought to be seen NOT heard..."

 

I'm in college and I do live at home, and my mom and I discuss this stuff all the time. Albeit I don't trash Christianity, I just challenge it.

[Lizard]

There's a big difference between discussing things..and what he is describing doing.

 

Required by law? Not really..she could give him over to the state.

 

I stand by my earlier statements. If one is living in my home, at my charity..to challenge me in that manner is not going to fly. My own children have tried the argumenative "your ideas are stupid and mean nothing" tactic. Two of them no longer live here.

 

I don't tell them they have to believe as I do. And, I don't trash their thoughts. I expect the same respect back.

[Open_Minded]

..... However, there is a better and more tactful way that he can do it. Maybe just tell her that he does not believe in that system of thought anymore. You don't have to out and out attack christianity to get a point across...

But having to be silent just because you live with your parents is insane. That is definitely the old Christian adage, "A child ought to be seen NOT heard..."

 

I'm in college and I do live at home, and my mom and I discuss this stuff all the time. Albeit I don't trash Christianity, I just challenge it.

 

I agree LoosingMyReligion - and I'm on the parent side of the equation. I WANT my children to be honest with me. I WANT them to feel they can talk to me about the important things in life - even if we disagree.

 

But ... as you said .... I want them to be respectful in their disagreement. I want them to recognize that I am a human as well and that I have my limits - just as they have their limits. If they disagree with me recognizing the need for respect in the process - then I am VERY willing to hear what they have to say.

 

Matt - what others have said about controlling your emotions. That is very important - it is so easy for a conversation to degenerate into an argument when people loose control of their emotions. If you find that your emotions are beginning to get out of hand it might be best just to end the conversation and come back to it - when you feel more in control of your-self. That is a very important thing to learn - not just in dealing with your Mum - but it's important in learning how to deal with people in general.

[SwissMiss]

No matter how much you want to, no matter how much it makes sense to you, no matter how illogical you find your mother's viewpoint to be, no matter how frustrated you are by the whole thing you cannot change your mother's opinions; only she can do that. As a teenager, you, of all people, should know that the more your mother gets on at you to do ANYTHING, the less likely you are to comply; why should she be all that different? It is simple: the more you attack, the more she'll defend.

 

From a parent's perspective (one that remembers very well what teenage-hood is like - from being one not so very long ago and from having one now) I would say that the best way you can handle the situation is to lead by example and be respectful of her opinions just as much as you want her to be respectful of yours. When discussions get heated how about saying, "Look, Mum, I appreciate that you have a different opinion than me but I love you and don't want to argue with you so let's agree to differ". I can promise you that if she is a normal, rational, loving parent then she will appreciate your consideration and you will have more of an impact than any amount of anti-bible thumping! Not only that, but you'll demonstrate that non-christians can be thoughtful and considerate too.

 

Putting the natural dynamics of attack and defense to one side, I would be extremely hurt if my daughter spoke to me in that fashion, is that really how you want her to feel? I believe that you have the right to hold whatever opinions you see fit regardless of whether you live independently or not. However, there does come a time when you have to weigh up the cost of expounding those opinions, at full force, to those whom you love. Let's be honest, her eternal soul isn't at stake so it hardly matters what she believes but it does matter if you hurt her just as it matters if she hurts you.

[Matt]

Thanx Guys. Before I read your responses I apologised to my mum when she got home. I would never let little arguements get in the way of our love. I totally agree with what everyone is saying and our arguement did degenerate when I asked mum about a hypothetical situation where someone who didnt know of Jesus and could never have known in their situation. She said 'oh well'. That kind of triggered off a defence mechanism. I get very emotional of Christianity and the whole thing at times.

 

So yeh after she went to shops I calmed down and wanted to reconciliate. I shouldnt have let my emotions take over the conversation, which subsequently led to an arguement. At least we werent all out shouting. Thank you to the parents for their imput.

[Matt]

She may believe in Jesus and I may not but we still love each other. Im very happy with that.

[Asimov]

So....what?

[Onyx]

I'm the same age as you.

When it comes to the religion thing, I either laugh at it in Monty python movies and the like or blaspheme in private.

I just don't have the energy and the will to be an anti evangelist and forcing atheism on everyone. That's just wrong.

 

My advice is, Be patient til you are 18.

[Thurisaz]

Thanks guys i just had to vent like crazy. She just left home for the shops.....Im sitting here with heart going crazy. Im just so angry at the immoarlity of it.

 

Aaaah, the wonderful power of morontheism, built on good oldfashioned brainwashing...

 

I feel for you Matt. That must suck royally indeed...

[Lizard]

Thanx Guys. Before I read your responses I apologised to my mum when she got home. I would never let little arguements get in the way of our love. I totally agree with what everyone is saying and our arguement did degenerate when I asked mum about a hypothetical situation where someone who didnt know of Jesus and could never have known in their situation. She said 'oh well'. That kind of triggered off a defence mechanism. I get very emotional of Christianity and the whole thing at times.

 

So yeh after she went to shops I calmed down and wanted to reconciliate. I shouldnt have let my emotions take over the conversation, which subsequently led to an arguement. At least we werent all out shouting. Thank you to the parents for their imput.

Way to go, Matt..that took maturity and alot of courage. It also clears the air for future discussions and perhaps one day your Mum will be here sharing her deconversion story.

[vampyre]

Bravo, Matt.

 

It takes alot for most people to apologize, whether they are wrong or not(I never am).

 

Good on you, but again don't bring it up if you can't keep your cool.

[Guest Sinlingual]

Matt, shouldn't you be out of your house? I'm fairly sure that in Australia and other former British coloniesyou get out of school at 16. I might be wrong but vampyre and other are right. Argue with your parents when they can't kick you out.

[vampyre]

In the states you get out of school at 18.

 

Unsuprizingly we also have one of the worst highschool education systems in the world.

[nirrti]

It's great you want to discuss religion (or lack there-of) with your mother. But please, like everyone else already said, be civil and mature when you are. If you come across as a bratty kid, she will not respect your opinion. Why should she if you're talking down to her like she's the child and you're the adult? Just as long as she's not pushing her beliefs on you, and it doesn't seem she is, it doesn't matter what they are, as long as you two respect each other.

 

Heck, you better be glad you're in such a liberal country and not over here in the good 'ole United States....or your situation would've been much worse. These fundy parents over here don't play and would think nothing of kicking their non-believing kid out the house or sending them off to some reeducation....er, um,....Bible camp.

[Thurisaz]

In the states you get out of school at 18.

 

Unsuprizingly we also have one of the worst highschool education systems in the world.

 

Eh, here in Germany the top-level education ("Gymnasium") is commonly finished when you're 19. That's the highest graduation you can get outside of a university. And while we've been ranting about our own crumbling educational standards, I consistently have the impression that a failed student here, any failed student, could immediately start working as teacher (or even professor) in the US.

At least in the babble belt that is.

[BTDT]

Hi Matt,

I haven't read entirely all off the responses you've gotten, but I see a few of them are a little judgemental about your reactions to your mom and the way the discussion degenerated. However, you had explained how upset you were getting at the 'immorality' of it all. I can completely relate to what you mean by that. I know it's not ideal, but I've reacted exactly the same way, in exactly the same context you mention here:

 

"our arguement did degenerate when I asked mum about a hypothetical situation where someone who didnt know of Jesus and could never have known in their situation. She said 'oh well'. That kind of triggered off a defence mechanism. I get very emotional of Christianity and the whole thing at times."

 

I totally understand what you mean. It's the glazed, content, automaton look, the "evil is good, good is evil' perversion that gets under your skin until you just want to physically shake some moral sense into someone and wake them up, but are powerless to do so. I'm quite older than you and female and I still have those emotions. It hurts, in a way, to know someone you love's 'values' are so twisted up that they can blissfully accept or even wish for evil and harm upon all others for not 'believing the proper thing.' It'd be like - having a mom who was a white supremacist or something, when such values totally violate the core of your own being.

 

You know yourself how bad you feel afterwards though, when you lose control. You also lose a little self-respect and know you didn't represent your position as well as you could have - it actually makes you less powerful to be the one who loses it, while the other person is all calm in their position. I know because I've been there - never feels good afterward. So that is what you will learn in future conversations as you practice how to discuss these issues and you get older...you will keep your poise and will be much more effective.

 

I find I'm on much safer ground, emotionally, when I stop trying to 'make' them see something my way, and asking them questions to insist they defend their belief, instead just confidently assert my position, or a fact about something that I am sure of (i.e. a historical fact about the bible, or its origins, or competing, similar mythologies of the times, or a bit of scientific knowledge), and do NOT turn it into a debate. I am of the opinion that the things we say calmly and refuse to debate are still seeds of thought that get planted, that will germinate when we leave them alone. It's happened with my Christian boyfriend, who no longer believes in hell.

 

Good luck. I definitely understand the feelings you were experiencing at the time you posted.

 

 

 

 

 

For me the issue wasn't that I "hated" that part of them, so much as it was that it kindof hurts that an imaginary friend comes before me in their thought processes.

 

Wow - that was so on the money, I felt it.

[greygirl]

My own children have tried the argumenative "your ideas are stupid and mean nothing" tactic. Two of them no longer live here.

 

Wow, you turned out your own children just for challenging you on your beliefs? I'm glad you're not my parent.

[Lizard]

My own children have tried the argumenative "your ideas are stupid and mean nothing" tactic. Two of them no longer live here.

 

Wow, you turned out your own children just for challenging you on your beliefs? I'm glad you're not my parent.

No, that isn't what I said.

 

Read it again. "MY children have tried the "YOUR (my) ideas are stupid and mean nothing" tactic.

 

No, that is NOT why they no longer live here. For one thing, they are 24 and nearly 26.

 

But, you know what? If I'm working my ass off to pay the bills and feed you, then you can at least act respectful and not dismiss anything I have to say about what goes on in MY house..that I worked my ass off to pay for, KWIM?

 

Parents do NOT owe adult children anything more. What they choose to give is charity..just like for any other adult.