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areformedthinker
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I was reading the devilis innocent thread, and I found myself agreeing to certain extents. I believe that God decreed the fall, I also agree that God (in some way) must have decreed the rebellion of satan. I think by God's vary nature of being God he can impute guilt and responsibility, and not have to answer for it. Think about it, if the God of the Bible is really there, then who in the hell does he have to answer to. God can do as he pleases and nobody and no being can call him into acount. In believing in the God of the Bible, I realize that I believe in a being who no one can point their finger at and say "What have you done?" Any thoughts from anybody about this.

 

 

Reference: The Devil was Innocent, He who has authority is responsible

 

 

 

Edited to add thread -Reach

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I was reading the devilis innocent thread, and I found myself agreeing to certain extents. I believe that God decreed the fall, I also agree that God (in some way) must have decreed the rebellion of satan. I think by God's vary nature of being God he can impute guilt and responsibility, and not have to answer for it. Think about it, if the God of the Bible is really there, then who in the hell does he have to answer to. God can do as he pleases and nobody and no being can call him into acount. In believing in the God of the Bible, I realize that I believe in a being who no one can point their finger at and say "What have you done?" Any thoughts from anybody about this.

You're right, he doesn't have to answer to anybody. However, that's a stretch from us having to believe his intents are our best interest, and worshipping him regardless of our personal convictions.

 

Edit: Which fact also puts me in mind to wonder what you think about the god you worship. I mean, do you excuse his actions, or do you just accept with no proof that it's all for the best?

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I do not claim to know that he everybodies best intentions (as in everybody in the whole world) in mind. the Bible seems to be pretty clear that God works salvation for the elect (see ephesians 1). I believe God has a chosen people, he effectually saves those people, and then sends the rest justly (based on his imputed responsibility) to hell. I would never dare assume to "excuse his actions." As I said, God does as he wishes, and I have no place to say "what have you done?"

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Sounds like one of my D&D suppliments described Chaotic Evil.

 

Monsters aren't powerful because they are Chaotic Evil, they are Chaotic Evil because they are powerful. When an ancient red dragon can say "Talk to the 14-die breath weapon" there isn't much incentive to organize.

 

Merlin

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Let me just express to Christians, that if you are not reformed, the "devil is innocent thread" had to have rocked your world-view, am I wrong? (sorry I know that is kind of a side topic). I guess the open-theist were not really rocked either, I am talking about your mainline Christian.

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Gastrich and other apolagists do their best to get their god off the hook. Holding him responsible is a major threat to xtian authoritarianism, and they like to claim that god is the source of the only form of ethics. Their "absolute" morality, and if you dare question or judge his deeds, (genocide etc) then you are a immoral monster as you are without absolute ethics, and standards. It's a presup type dodge and points to a moral relativism and arbitrary reasoning that explains a lot of xtianity's crimes let alone god's.

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I do not claim to know that he everybodies best intentions (as in everybody in the whole world) in mind. the Bible seems to be pretty clear that God works salvation for the elect (see ephesians 1). I believe God has a chosen people, he effectually saves those people, and then sends the rest justly (based on his imputed responsibility) to hell. I would never dare assume to "excuse his actions." As I said, God does as he wishes, and I have no place to say "what have you done?"

 

 

Do you claim to be one of the elect?

 

TAP

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I was reading the devilis innocent thread, and I found myself agreeing to certain extents. I believe that God decreed the fall, I also agree that God (in some way) must have decreed the rebellion of satan. I think by God's vary nature of being God he can impute guilt and responsibility, and not have to answer for it. Think about it, if the God of the Bible is really there, then who in the hell does he have to answer to. God can do as he pleases and nobody and no being can call him into acount. In believing in the God of the Bible, I realize that I believe in a being who no one can point their finger at and say "What have you done?" Any thoughts from anybody about this.

 

Calvinism: the Holy Mafia Don in the Sky.

 

I don't like him, but of course he made me not like him.

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See Asimov's recent thread about cosmological argument/causality/free will. I think systematic reflection on the bible can indeed push one to calvinism - its theology is consistent up to a point. But it introduces so many monstrosities that eventually, one asks, why go on with this bloodthirsty religion when it still bumps up against the contradictions that lace the bible?

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Do you claim to be one of the elect?

 

I claim that I believe in the God of the Bible, and the only way that I possibly could have done so is by his enabling. Unless He (God) saw fit to give someone faith and not save them, then yes, I would say I have good reason to believe that I, and all people who believe (even if they are not reformed) are the elect.

 

Calvinism: the Holy Mafia Don in the Sky.

 

I don't like him, but of course he made me not like him.

 

I am not convinced that scripture does not agree with that statement. I think you might be on to something.

 

Mar 4:11 And He was saying to them, "To you has been given the mystery of the kingdom of God, but those who are outside get everything in parables,

Mar 4:12 so that WHILE SEEING, THEY MAY SEE AND NOT PERCEIVE, AND WHILE HEARING, THEY MAY HEAR AND NOT UNDERSTAND, OTHERWISE THEY MIGHT RETURN AND BE FORGIVEN."

 

Isa 63:17 Why, O LORD, do You cause us to stray from Your ways And harden our heart from fearing You? Return for the sake of Your servants, the tribes of Your heritage.

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Gastrich and other apolagists do their best to get their god off the hook. Holding him responsible is a major threat to xtian authoritarianism, and they like to claim that god is the source of the only form of ethics. Their "absolute" morality, and if you dare question or judge his deeds, (genocide etc) then you are a immoral monster as you are without absolute ethics, and standards. It's a presup type dodge and points to a moral relativism and arbitrary reasoning that explains a lot of xtianity's crimes let alone god's.

 

I do not know if that was to me, but I am not trying to get God off the hook, I am saying no one can put him on a hook.

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I think by God's vary nature of being God he can impute guilt and responsibility, and not have to answer for it. Think about it, if the God of the Bible is really there, then who in the hell does he have to answer to. God can do as he pleases and nobody and no being can call him into acount.

 

Yes, the God of the Bible could do what he wants and not have to answer for it. I would seriously hope that he would hold himself to some moral values though. Why would he send his son to forgive our sins if he is casting out satan for doing his own work? The same argument can be made for Judas. Judas was damned for betraying Jesus. If he didn't betray him and he wasn't crucified what's the point?

 

It's these inconsistencies that kill me.

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Guest Son of Belial
I believe God has a chosen people, he effectually saves those people, and then sends the rest justly (based on his imputed responsibility) to hell. I would never dare assume to "excuse his actions." As I said, God does as he wishes, and I have no place to say "what have you done?"

 

 

So you're saying that when God creates people, clouds their minds with the intention of sending them to Hell, this is just? All on the basis that "might makes right?" You think that it's just for a God to create people that he knows from the moment of birth that they are going to go to Hell, for the sole purpose of torturing them for eternity with no choice or free will? This is your idea of justice?

 

We asked Quine this question and he didn't answer, so maybe you will: if you believe people can only be saved if God wants them, and those who disbelieve do so because God wants them to go to Hell, then why the fuck are you preaching?

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Yes, the God of the Bible could do what he wants and not have to answer for it. I would seriously hope that he would hold himself to some moral values though. Why would he send his son to forgive our sins if he is casting out satan for doing his own work? The same argument can be made for Judas. Judas was damned for betraying Jesus. If he didn't betray him and he wasn't crucified what's the point?

 

It's these inconsistencies that kill me.

 

Jesus was sent to forgive us our sins, becuase we rebelled against the moral will of God. Was Adams rebellion (which represented mankind, see Romans 5) decreed? Yes. Why are we held responsible? because God declared us to be responsible. Was Judas carrying out God's plan? absolutely:

 

Act 2:23 this {Man,} delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put {Him} to death. (bold mine NASB).

 

why was Judas responsible for this sin, because God declared humans responsible for our decisions, even though he was sovereign over them. Do not get me wrong, we (humanity) sin willfully and with a willful volition, this is not inconsistent with God being in control of what we willfully do. God decrees I will want to eat an apple, I eat an apple. Did God decree it? yes. Did I want to eat the apple? yes.

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Guest Son of Belial
Was Adams rebellion (which represented mankind, see Romans 5) decreed? Yes. Why are we held responsible? because God declared us to be responsible.

 

Ah, okay. It all makes perfect sense now. So if I'm stronger than someone, I can force them to do something then blame them for it. After all, I'm more powerful than they are. rape.gif

 

why was Judas responsible for this sin, because God declared humans responsible for our decisions, even though he was sovereign over them.

 

Yup, I understand. People are responsible because God says so, even though he's making us do things. It's like shoving a kid down a flight of stairs, then beating them for being stupid enough to fall down the stairs. I'm stronger anyway, I can do that kind of thing. hitler.gif

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... Do not get me wrong, we (humanity) sin willfully and with a willful volition, this is not inconsistent with God being in control of what we willfully do. God decrees I will want to eat an apple, I eat an apple. Did God decree it? yes. Did I want to eat the apple? yes.

 

Oh ya, fer sure! Nothing inconsistent with a round square either.

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So you're saying that when God creates people, clouds their minds with the intention of sending them to Hell, this is just? All on the basis that "might makes right?" You think that it's just for a God to create people that he knows from the moment of birth that they are going to go to Hell, for the sole purpose of torturing them for eternity with no choice or free will? This is your idea of justice?

 

We asked Quine this question and he didn't answer, so maybe you will: if you believe people can only be saved if God wants them, and those who disbelieve do so because God wants them to go to Hell, then why the fuck are you preaching?

 

If the creator of the universe declares this just, then it is just. If the God of the Bible is real, then how arrogant would someone have to be to say to him, the creator of the universe, and upholder of all things, "how dare you."

 

Now I realize that you do not believe in the God of the Bible (at least I do not think you do) so you are not pointing a finger at him (you would have to believe to point the finger). However, as a believer, I have no right to say to call him into account for anything.

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If the creator of the universe declares this just, then it is just. If the God of the Bible is real, then how arrogant would someone have to be to say to him, the creator of the universe, and upholder of all things, "how dare you."

 

Now I realize that you do not believe in the God of the Bible (at least I do not think you do) so you are not pointing a finger at him (you would have to believe to point the finger). However, as a believer, I have no right to say to call him into account for anything.

 

 

If I am arrogant, I am only arrogant because God made me arrogant. If he is pissed about that, that is his problem. Nothing I can do about it.

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QUOTE(areformedthinker @ Apr 10 2005, 04:38 PM)

... Do not get me wrong, we (humanity) sin willfully and with a willful volition, this is not inconsistent with God being in control of what we willfully do. God decrees I will want to eat an apple, I eat an apple. Did God decree it? yes. Did I want to eat the apple? yes.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Oh ya, fer sure! Nothing inconsistent with a round square either.

 

Let me see if I can clarify. God is still the one giving me the desires. Do I desire it? yes. Does God give me this desire? yes. I am not trying to say that my actions are not pre-ordained, I am simply saying that I still act volitionally. If I am inconsistent (which I might be) could you be more specific about where I am being inconsistent. God decree I wan A, I want A. God decrees it, I want it.

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QUOTE

Was Adams rebellion (which represented mankind, see Romans 5) decreed? Yes. Why are we held responsible? because God declared us to be responsible.

 

 

Ah, okay. It all makes perfect sense now. So if I'm stronger than someone, I can force them to do something then blame them for it. After all, I'm more powerful than they are.

 

 

QUOTE

why was Judas responsible for this sin, because God declared humans responsible for our decisions, even though he was sovereign over them.

 

 

Yup, I understand. People are responsible because God says so, even though he's making us do things. It's like shoving a kid down a flight of stairs, then beating them for being stupid enough to fall down the stairs. I'm stronger anyway, I can do that kind of thing.

 

Its not about being stronger, it is about being creator. If you were working with a piece of clay, what right would that clay have to say to you, "your not doing this right."

 

Rom 9:18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

Rom 9:19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?"

Rom 9:20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it?

Rom 9:21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?

 

sorry for the long Bible quote, I am just trying to show that as a believer in the Bible, this is what I am compelled to believe this.

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Its not about being stronger, it is about being creator. If you were working with a piece of clay, what right would that clay have to say to you, "your not doing this right."

 

Rom 9:18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

Rom 9:19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?"

Rom 9:20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it?

Rom 9:21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?

 

sorry for the long Bible quote, I am just trying to show that as a believer in the Bible, this is what I am compelled to believe this.

 

 

Areformedthinker

 

You will just accept what anyone (as though a god is a sentient being) will do without question. To say that the god you believe in can do anything it wants and you have no opinion of it is absurd. You don’t question or object, you merely assert, and by assert I mean that YOU decree that a so-called god has the final say.

 

The ‘god’ you uphold has told you to make sure we all know the ‘truth’ so when it burns us in hell it (who is really YOU) can’t say we weren’t warned. You merely conspire with the devil you call your god and justify the evil (it supposedly cannot commit) as good because you, yourself, are afraid of the fire you try to preach here.

 

Supernatural & Omniscient is what you want to be, so you give your god these qualities. You are judge and juror, not your god, and you think that because YOU have forewarned us it will be a good enough reason to burn us.

 

You say you are ‘compelled’ to believe. What compels you? The fact that you were raised to believe, not only in the god you serve, but also the hell he has waiting for you, also, my friend. For no matter how much you claim the blood, in an instant god can turn you around and make an unbeliever out of you, just as it did to all of us on this sight. You and your little dog, too…

MJ :ukliam2:

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Areformedthinker

 

You will just accept what anyone (as though a god is a sentient being) will do without question. To say that the god you believe in can do anything it wants and you have no opinion of it is absurd. You don’t question or object, you merely assert, and by assert I mean that YOU decree that a so-called god has the final say.

 

Why would I believe in a God who did not have the final say. Again, wiht the attributes of the God I believe in, is it not absurd to question him? I do believe that Christianity needs to be critiqued for it to stay healthy, but according to my authority (the Bible) I see no reason to believe anything but what I have stated.

 

The ‘god’ you uphold has told you to make sure we all know the ‘truth’ so when it burns us in hell it (who is really YOU) can’t say we weren’t warned. You merely conspire with the devil you call your god and justify the evil (it supposedly cannot commit) as good because you, yourself, are afraid of the fire you try to preach here.

 

actually the God I uphold says that he has provided enough in creation to condem you, whether I ever told you the truth or not.

 

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,

Rom 1:19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.

Rom 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

 

Supernatural & Omniscient is what you want to be, so you give your god these qualities. You are judge and juror, not your god, and you think that because YOU have forewarned us it will be a good enough reason to burn us.

 

It was not my intention to give God any qualities in and of myself, I though I was working from my athority (the Bible) which gives God these qualities.

 

You say you are ‘compelled’ to believe. What compels you? The fact that you were raised to believe, not only in the god you serve, but also the hell he has waiting for you, also, my friend. For no matter how much you claim the blood, in an instant god can turn you around and make an unbeliever out of you, just as it did to all of us on this sight. You and your little dog, too…

 

God compels me. and as far as making an unbeliever out of me as he did you, the Bibe (again my athority) asserts that once God makes you a believer he will not make you an unbeliever.

 

Rom 8:29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined {to become} conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;

Rom 8:30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

 

The Bible declares that those who are predestined are automatically carried to the glorification. 1 John further points out, that those who left the faith were never really part of it.

 

1Jo 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not {really} of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but {they went out,} so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.

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On a side note, I am surprised that there are so few Christians here. Am I wrong? I am just not seeing a whole lot of Christian objections to some of the things you guys post, and for that matter, some things that I am posting (considering most Christians find Calvinism abhorrent).

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Guest Son of Belial
Its not about being stronger, it is about being creator.

 

And I am my child's creator, so he has no right to complain that I shoved him down the steps then punished him for it. Such a thing is much less painful than creating a soul that I've predestined to burn in Hell, that I created JUST to torture.

 

And you still didn't answer my question. We're only going to change if God wants us to, so why are you here wasting your breath?

 

Oh yeah. Cos God's forcing you to.

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Reformed thinker: I know Calvinism very well. I went to a Calvinist seminary. I note your words, "this is what I am compelled to believe..." Yes, it is what the bible compels you to believe. If the consequences come in time to seem too dark to you, don't shrink from attributing them to that collection of writings, and just take the step and drop them. You don't need to presuppose the bible to live in freedom and find joy. Calvinism, on the other hand, commits you and its other adherents to exalt cruelty and power under the guise of words like "creator" and "potter." The cost is to deny a piece of your humanity. You die a little bit every year that you live consistently with the theology of a Stalin-god. I say this in utmost respect, having been there.

 

Just a thought: step away from the calvinism and consider the contradictions of many kinds that infect the bible. It is, after all, a COLLECTION of writings of different authors and centuries, encoding stuff that goes back to the bronze age. Trying to systematize it is like trying to systematize all of Greek mythology into one coherent account - the documents themselves resist that. For starters: at what hour of the morning did the women set out for Jesus' tomb? Did Mary immediately tell the news to the disciples or did she maintain silence out of fear? Were there one men or two at the tomb, or one angel, or two? When Jesus entered Jerusalem, did he sit on one ass or on two? Is prayer for the dead praiseworthy? Why not, since it's mentioned in the Bible? And if it is, doesn't that imply purgatory? But why isn't II Maccabees, which declares that, part of the Bible? Who says, and on what authority? I could go on.

 

I'm really not trying to be obnoxious. I know it's easy to come off as obnoxious when, like me, one says, "I've been there." So I'll stop now. Peace.

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