An Office Debate

[Greydon Square]

This A Debate That Took Place Today 10/18/06 through Email Correspondence

 

The names have been changed to protect the other people, but you know who I am…lol

 

Mutual Friend: A few of the Scriptures sound a little harsh to me, especially the one about death to Non- Believers. That's saying it's ok to kill an atheist, because he or she does not believe. Also the slavery verse, what significance does that have?

 

Christian: Death to non-believers was changed by God. The "law" is what the people of God used to live by. Which meant if you sinned bad enough you would be put to death. But when Jesus (being God in the flesh) came, he changed this. Now he said "I have come to call the sinners to repentance" he wants man to change. That's why we don't kill people when they sin because (Jesus) took there place, my place, your place on the cross. He died for your sins.

 

The verse about slavery is not promoting slavery. But remember man has always had slaves. God tells slaves to be obedient. Remember...its 2000 years ago...God has to speak to every single generation with this book. Slaves were apart of the economic system. God also orders masters to treat there slaves well. The bible also speaks about slaves being freed...God covered it all. But men like to pick and choose scriptures that are harsh then criticize them. Does that answer your question...if not let me know.

Greydon: It sounds like someone is reaching for justification, this is why i put Psalms 19:7 on there "the law of the LORD is perfect, reviving the soul." If the law of the lord is perfect, then why would it need to be changed? More over, I dont know how anyone else would slice it, but slavery is wrong Period. an all loving deity should not have to tell slaves how to behave or tell slave owners how to treat slaves because it shouldn't exist period, nor be condoned. if you can tell slave owners that treating slaves horribly is wrong, then you as a deity could easily tell the people as a whole that slavery itself is wrong. Also If god changed the law in the new testament with the incursion of the "son of man" into the world, then why does slavery justification still appear in the new testament. (Titus 2:9) Im reading from a literalistic stand point, im not picking and choosing scriptures to "use" out of context, i am simply saying that these were things that were said as well as condoned by this supposed all loving being. So no that doesn't answer my question.

Christian: Hey Greydon I was responding the Questions. The law of the lord is perfect. It does revive the soul. Now God is just not a God of Love. He's a God of justice, vengeance, and wrath. His is the God of battles the bible says. So he isn't just love.

 

Second he tells slaves to be obedient because a Christian is content in all situations. Even in slavery and death. We do this by the spirit of God which might be hard for you to understand because the things of the spirit are foolishness to man.

 

God's law according to man changed. But according to God it was destined to happen since he exists outside of time. That's why Jesus said "I did not come to destroy the law but to fulfill it". He came to do what was supposed to happen. To fulfill prophecy.

 

What about other scriptures that speak of slavery? how Paul the apostle freed slaves? How the apostles them selves were prisoners who were starved and tortured? Don't read the bible to disprove it. Read for help and understanding. Any other questions?

 

 

 

 

 

Greydon: 1. Im not reading the bible to disprove it, the 1000+ contradictions within it does that for me, But when you say that God is the god of justice wrath and revenge, it seems that he enjoys the wrath and justice and revenge parts, but you never answered my question, if god was able to decree that the horrible treatment of slaves are wrong, then why not decree that slavery itself is wrong? there is no justice in slavery, genocide, rape, murder, sodomy or anything of that nature.

2. The spirit of God is hard for me to understand because i dont see how it is any different than, the spirit of Allah, Buddha, or Thor, or

Hera or Mars the god war. I never ever thought things of the spirit were ever foolish, and being a former christian i remember being on the other side of the argument. But if being a christian is being content in all situations, then we would still have slavery today, because we would all be content in our daily lives as slaves and slave owners.

3.God's law according to man changed, but according to god it was destined to happen????? what does that even mean?

The definition of an all supreme being is an ubiquitous omniscient being existing in all points of the universe at the same time throughout ALL time. A NON LINEAR TIMELINE MEANS NOTHING ON A SCALE OF INFINITY. When Jesus came to "fulfill" the he didnt fulfill anything so much as change it, the laws decreed to man by god in the bible when from 613 commandments to 10 to 2. And isn't it fairly convenient that Krishna , Buddha and Christ all have IDENTICAL prophecies?

4.The other scriptures that speak of slavery would not and should not have been written if the God almighty had decreed that slavery was wrong to begin with. The apostles being prisoners IS NOT the same as being slaves, your not born into a life or death sentence, but people were born into slavery then and even now. so how is that relevant to the debate?

 

I await your reply

 

Christian: So what are you looking for Greydon...for me to say God is unjust....your trying to get answer from God...for him to say he was wrong....I could debate you all day...we can go back and forth....but I've seen you....wearing your blue rag...chucks...I know you probably have lived a crazy life....you've been hurt and you want answers....I used to be an atheist...born and raised in the projects...angry at God.....You said you went to church....Did you ever feel his presence?...Did you ever see people feel his presence?...

 

Greydon: Your right i wear blue rags and blue chucks, i am a crip, you wear your cross and carry your bible, you are a Christian and i contest that we are both in gangs, my gang feuds with other gangs, and your religion feuds with other religions, however my gang never went out and slaughtered every person that wasn't apart my gang, however Christianity has done that and more(the crusades, & Spanish inquisition) im looking for nothing more than the truth, and from where i sit, religion is dangerous. more people have died in the name of religion than aids cancer and every war thats ever taken place combined. I stopped being angry when i realized that there was nothing to be angry at but myself. So i changed it, i live by the saying "if you like getting what your getting keep doing what your doing". as far as answers, i want answers to EVERTHING, and i dont think a book that was written 1780 years ago(to be exact) can give me those answers because the answers that are given conflict with each other. The logic of the bible is sketchy at best. I wasn't just GOING to church, i was going to The Manhattan School Of Divinity to become a Pastor. Can you say the same? You ask me if i ever felt his presence, no but then again you ask me as if i believe what you believe, you ask if i ever saw people feel his presence, no but i have witnessed a mass-induced psychosis, and delusional results of a crowd(you've heard of witch hunts, and angry mobs) And to set the record straight i dont think you could debate me all day simply due to the fact that the one question i have asked you 2 times now within this debate you still haven't answered. You simply side-stepped the question completely, but its ok, i love debate, the exchange of knowledge is the single greatest activity man can participate in. And i thank you for your insight. It was well worth the price of admission

Eddie

Christian: So why did you stop going?...why'd you stop believing?

 

Greydon: because if i acknowledge and accept one God then i must acknowledge and accept all of them, because there is no proof to prove nor disprove any specific god, why is Thor or Amin Ra any different than Jesus or Allah. Jesus said that he was the way and the light, and that the only way to absolution is through him. Well what about all the people who never heard or will never hear the name jesus Christ? are they screwed? Jesus spoke absolutely about this therefore there is no gray area in this, if you do not believe that Christ died for your sin that you will not be granted absolution?

 

But here is a bigger question, why do you NOT believe in Hera or Zeus? Why are you not Buddhist? How is Christianity any different than any other religion?

 

Christian: Usually someone might contend with you. But the bible says to not debate. the gospel is given to those who want it and need it. if you don't want anything to do with God then why take the time to write scriptures and ask questions to Christians. If you wanted absolutely nothing to do with God then why write this. If you don't want any thing to do with him then don't talk to his people. If want answers form him then pray, ask him...who are you and if you don't answer you don't exist...that's what I did. I've learned that those who seek God are those to be servants to. Any man who comes to me and says he needs Jesus, I would do everything humanly possible for him to get to know God better. But you don't want God. The bible (Gods word) will never try and prove God.....it only declares. Your a very eloquent writer too bad you cant do it to glorify God.

 

Greydon: Aside from Jesus debating, and the bible stating in 2 Pet. to debate, What about other gods?

 

Christian: God is God....whether you like it or not. I was in your shoes.....gang-banger ...atheist....hated the world....maybe that's you maybe not.....but I know this....Gods plan is for you to seek him. Not for me to sit here and prove God. He already does that. Christ speaking to the apostles.......

 

" And Ye shall here of wars and rumors of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet"

"For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places."

 

if you don't see that verse and its escalation in the past 100 years, others do. God is coming. The bible says if you tell someone about Jesus and they don't respond, shake the dust off your shoes and leave that home. So if you don't believe I pray God will speak to you....he will break you....and you will see that he (Jesus Christ) is God. I'll leave you with this so God knows I spoke to you the truth.

 

Acts 2:38 "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

39 "For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

 

John 3:5...except ye be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God .

 

You will never disprove God.

 

Have a good day Greydon and God bless you.

Greydon: Im not trying to disprove god, and i dont think its possible to disprove something that has never been proven in the first place. however in a court of law, or any court of that matter, THE BURDEN OF PROOF IS ON THE ONE MAKING THE CLAIM. Im simply saying i dont believe it due to the lack of proof as well as the indistinguishability from other gods. Oh and by the way, Other religions just like yours preach and prophesize the end of days, your prophecy is one of over 500 apocalyptic prophecies. I suggest you sure up your knowledge on the subject so that you can have a higher percentage of conversion, i see that the argument isn't strong enough and if you had that much faith in what you claim to believe, then you would have more of a leg to stand on, but since you dont, you pray for me.........I'll think for you

Thanks for the exchange of knowledge

Its always a pleasure to get different views

 

God is Santa Clause for Adults

 

Have great days as well

Greydon

[Asimov]

Why did you let him try and shift the burden of proof onto you, dude? What a fucker...

[Greydon Square]

Why did you let him try and shift the burden of proof onto you, dude? What a fucker...

i thought i countered it well with the statement "I shouldnt have to prove something that hadnt been proven in the first place"

[Asimov]

Why did you let him try and shift the burden of proof onto you, dude? What a fucker...

i thought i countered it well with the statement "I shouldnt have to prove something that hadnt been proven in the first place" your not calling me the fucker are you?

 

I would have said "you fucker" if I was calling you the fucker, haha!

 

Well, if it was proven then you can't disprove it...if it isn't proven yet, then you still don't have disprove it. That's all I'm sayin. It seemed like you were letting him do it, but I missed the part where you said that.

 

Seems like an interesting debate.

[Greydon Square]

Why did you let him try and shift the burden of proof onto you, dude? What a fucker...

i thought i countered it well with the statement "I shouldnt have to prove something that hadnt been proven in the first place" your not calling me the fucker are you?

 

I would have said "you fucker" if I was calling you the fucker, haha!

 

Well, if it was proven then you can't disprove it...if it isn't proven yet, then you still don't have disprove it. That's all I'm sayin. It seemed like you were letting him do it, but I missed the part where you said that.

 

Seems like an interesting debate.

hmm..... no i wasnt letting him do it, i actually thought his argument was weak. i believe i picked him apart... but thats just me

[Purple]

God is Santa Clause for Adults

 

That just cracks me up. As for the rest, dayum, way to bang your head on a wall. Doesn't that hurt?

[Asimov]

hmm..... no i wasnt letting him do it, i actually thought his argument was weak. i believe i picked him apart... but thats just me

 

 

You did pick him apart, I just had one nitpick and apparently you got that already anyways. His argument was weak.

[KT45]

Christian: So what are you looking for Greydon...for me to say God is unjust....your trying to get answer from God...for him to say he was wrong....I could debate you all day...we can go back and forth....but I've seen you....wearing your blue rag...chucks...I know you probably have lived a crazy life....you've been hurt and you want answers....I used to be an atheist...born and raised in the projects...angry at God.....You said you went to church....Did you ever feel his presence?...Did you ever see people feel his presence?...

How can you be an Atheist and angry at God? He was never an atheist if he was angry at God because he would believe he doesn't exist.

[Greydon Square]

Christian: So what are you looking for Greydon...for me to say God is unjust....your trying to get answer from God...for him to say he was wrong....I could debate you all day...we can go back and forth....but I've seen you....wearing your blue rag...chucks...I know you probably have lived a crazy life....you've been hurt and you want answers....I used to be an atheist...born and raised in the projects...angry at God.....You said you went to church....Did you ever feel his presence?...Did you ever see people feel his presence?...

How can you be an Atheist and angry at God? He was never an atheist if he was angry at God because he would believe he doesn't exist.

Great point, i think thats where the bait was, because i never really refuted that. you cant be angry at something you have no believe in. So your absolutely right

[Guest lamont]

Why do xians always accuse atheists of being "angry at god"? This reccurs so often.

 

Are you a crip for real?

[Greydon Square]

Why do xians always accuse atheists of being "angry at god"? This reccurs so often.

 

Are you a crip for real?

Yes i am, dont get me wrong im not NEARLY as active as i was when i was younger...im 25 now... bangin doesnt pay the bills, but yes i am a crip, and have been since i was 14.

[LosingMyReligion]

My question exactly...Are you really a crip?

 

EDITED: My question was just answered...haha

 

Anyway, an atheist being angry at god is like me being angry at the Easter Bunny. How can you be mad at something that doesn't exist?

 

Now, if an atheist is pissed at Christianity that is understandable...but God...uhm, no...

Furthermore, that guy was never an atheist if he was angry at god...To be angry at someone means they exist.

[Guest lamont]

My question exactly...Are you really a crip?

 

EDITED: My question was just answered...haha

 

Anyway, an atheist being angry at god is like me being angry at the Easter Bunny. How can you be mad at something that doesn't exist?

 

Now, if an atheist is pissed at Christianity that is understandable...but God...uhm, no...

Furthermore, that guy was never an atheist if he was angry at god...To be angry at someone means they exist.

 

Yeh, I noticed that xians tend to enjoy using exlcusive terminology, jargon if you would. Like a christian will say "I was an atheist once, like you" but they never were an atheist. They might refer to a moth when they had doubts or something, but put it under the disguise of atheist so that you are tricked indentifiying with them. The other one is alchoholic. So many christians talk about the bad old days when they were alchoholics, but in reality they weren't. They just enjoyed partying hard in their old days, and in order to make it worse than it was they attach alchoholic to the title to dramatize it. Xians love a drama testimony.

 

Ever notice how the term whitness is like an action verb to them? To whitness is to observe or see something and take note of it. WHy do they say they are whitnessing when they are telling people about their religion. Its damn weird and backward.

 

P.S. Nice to know there some bruthas with me on this forum too!

[quicksand]

Why do xians always accuse atheists of being "angry at god"? This reccurs so often.

I tell them that I am angry at Posedian for causing Katrina. Just cause they deny Posedian, doesn't mean he doesn't exist.

[Greydon Square]

Why do xians always accuse atheists of being "angry at god"? This reccurs so often.

I tell them that I am angry at Posedian for causing Katrina. Just cause they deny Posedian, doesn't mean he doesn't exist.

Thats great im gonna use that......lmao....

But i just loved within the entire debate, he kept sidestepping the real questions.....they werent hard questions but if he wanted to convert me those are questions he would have to answer before he did.......That leaves me to beleive that xtians have to be the most gullible and insecure and fearful people of all time.

[Dhampir]

I think you're right about their fearfulness, hence the fervor with which they often brutally converted the pagan masses. They never could fully reconcile their beliefs with reality, so they killed those that threatened them by not conforming. These days they can't do that, so when they come across someone who can't be fooled, the resort to attacks on the person of the non-believer, or they just try to slink away without admitting defeat.

 

 

P.S. Nice to know there some bruthas with me on this forum too!

Hey, I'm black too! Dammit!

[KT45]

As am I.

[Greydon Square]

As am I.

Its funny cause im thinkin about doing a documentary on black atheism and how rare it is in the black community

[Guest lamont]

As am I.

Its funny cause im thinkin about doing a documentary on black atheism and how rare it is in the black community

 

That is an excellent idea! Keep me posted about it.

 

Hey, I'm black too! Dammit!

 

 

... and sistas! I can't forget the sistas!

[Antlerman]

Here's how I see his debating techniques:

 

 

1. He offers an argument for why what is written in the bible isn’t a contradiction

2. When his argument is shown to be fallacious, he claims you can’t understand it without special revelation through the eyes of the spirit, negating any purpose for offering an apology in the first place

3. When this fails, he appeals to emotional experiences

4. When he is brought back to his first argument, he justifies not explaining any further saying the Bible says he shouldn’t debate, which is what he did in the first place by offering an apology for the contradiction in the Bible

5. He then offers another argument to prove God by citing the fit-any-time-period prophecy of earthquakes and wars in the last days, contradicting both the he shouldn’t debate, and that you can’t understand without special revelation of the spirit

6. He then justifies himself running from the debate by citing the “shake the dust off your sandals” verse

7. He then attempts to put himself into the superior position by patronizing you by praying for a blessing from God upon you

 

Summary: He follows the typical Christian apologist line, speaking with confidence and assurance using reason to explain God until challenged, then degrading into denying the merits of reason, then to appealing to “feeling” God, then to persuade himself he has the superior position by assuming himself to be some poor, rejected-by-man prophet of God, as he shakes the dust of his sandals off at you. Nice! A True Christian is a master in the art of self-delusion.

 

BTW, you’re a very good debater. He got out as quickly as he did because he stood no chance against you.

[Guest]

I tell them that I am angry at Posedian for causing Katrina. Just cause they deny Posedian, doesn't mean he doesn't exist.

 

I live in Florida, and every year since 9/11 I "pray" to Posedian to keep my house and my family's property safe from any major destruction from hurricanes. My parents house had some minor roof damage during Katrina, but other than that, my prayers have had an astounding success rate. We haven't even had any major storms this year!

 

I've mentioned this to one xtian I work with and you could actually see his brain freeze up!

[Guest lamont]

Here's how I see his debating techniques:

 

 

1. He offers an argument for why it is what is written in the bible isn’t a contradiction

2. When his argument is shown to be fallacious, he claims you can’t understand it without special revelation through the eyes of the spirit, negating any purpose for offering an apology in the first place

3. When this fails, he appeals to emotional experiences

4. When he is brought back to his first argument, he justifies not explaining any further saying the Bible says he shouldn’t debate, which is what he did in the first place by offering an apology for the contradiction in the Bible

5. He then offers another argument to prove God by citing the fit-any-time-period prophecy of earthquakes and wars in the last days, contradicting both the he shouldn’t debate, and that you can’t understand without special revelation of the spirit

6. He then justifies himself running from the debate by citing the “shake the dust off your sandals” verse

7. He then attempts to put himself into the superior position by patronizing you by praying for a blessing from God upon you

 

Summary: He follows the typical Christian apologist line, speaking with confidence and assurance using reason to explain God until challenged, then degrading into denying the merits of reason, then to appealing to “feeling” God, then to persuade himself he has the superior position by assuming himself to be some poor rejected prophet of God, as he shakes the dust of his sandals off at you. Nice! A True Christian is a master in the art of self-justification.

 

BTW, you’re a very good debater. He got out as quickly as he did because he stood no chance against you.

 

That is a great summary. That is exactly the same type of behavior I observe typically exhibited by xians when debating their religion. Usually in that exact same order.

[LosingMyReligion]

As am I.

Its funny cause im thinkin about doing a documentary on black atheism and how rare it is in the black community

 

That is an excellent idea! Keep me posted about it.

 

Hey, I'm black too! Dammit!

 

 

... and sistas! I can't forget the sistas!

 

 

Me too!

 

When I first signed up here I thought I would be the only black person...lol. Because you don't see to many un "SAVED" black folks where I'm from...haha

[LostOrFound]

I tell them that I am angry at Posedian for causing Katrina. Just cause they deny Posedian, doesn't mean he doesn't exist.

 

I live in Florida, and every year since 9/11 I "pray" to Posedian to keep my house and my family's property safe from any major destruction from hurricanes. My parents house had some minor roof damage during Katrina, but other than that, my prayers have had an astounding success rate. We haven't even had any major storms this year!

 

I've mentioned this to one xtian I work with and you could actually see his brain freeze up!

 

 

I gotta use that one.... love it!

[Amethyst]

If any fundy type tried to start up a debate at work, I'd just say I didn't have time for that, which would be true -- I don't. Either that, or flat-out refuse to discuss religion with him. Work is for working, not preaching.