Jesus never saved us

[Ouroboros]

Here’s an argument I’d like to introduce to Christians and likes, and also to my friends at ExC.

 

The teaching I got was that Adams sin, was punishable with “the Death of Deaths”, as the meaning of an eternal death. Sin could not be redeemed, but it had to be paid for in full.

 

Presumably Jesus died and was resurrected after three days. Doesn’t that imply that Jesus cheated and didn’t pay the debt in full? Shouldn’t he still be dead, for the debt to be paid?

 

When I buy a soda in the store, I don’t give them my money, and then when I walk out from the store to actually request the money back. You pay, and you get a receipt. The receipt is the proof of payment.

 

To solve this puzzle there’s a couple of explanations that can be presented.

 

1) Either sin is not punishable with eternal death and torture.

 

2) Or Jesus is still dead, and was never resurrected.

 

3) Or Jesus was resurrected, but the only in a non corporeal form, and the body is still in the grave as a receipt of the purchase

 

The first explanation gives us a free pass regardless if we believe Jesus or not. We’re not going to hell for eternity. Good news for everybody.

 

The second explanation means that the Bible was wrong about the accounts of Jesus resurrection and he is still in the grave, and still is the payment for our sins.

 

And the last one shows also that the Bible was incorrect about the accounts, and Jesus never left the grave, but only showed himself in a incorporeal form, and the grave was never empty with angels proclaiming Jesus un-dead.

 

What’s your take on this?

[Guest MacGyver]

The Bible also teaches that:

sin is passed on through the man

Christ does not have a human male progenitor but was begotten of God

Christ was sinless and had no debt to pay

 

Those three things pretty much clear it up for me.

[Mythra]

O.K. I'll answer this like I would have before I x'd out

 

To God, a thousand years is like a day. That's another way of saying that God transcends all time. Time means nothing to Him.

 

So, in the split second when Jesus said, "My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me", he suffered eternal separation from God. (somehow) And in some other plane of existence he is still separated from God. (somehow)

 

Lean not on your own understanding.

 

Oh, what the hell, makes as much sense as any of the rest of it.

 

Your turn, Philosopher Dave.

[spamandham]

The Bible also teaches that:

sin is passed on through the man

Christ does not have a human male progenitor but was begotten of God

Christ was sinless and had no debt to pay

 

Those three things pretty much clear it up for me.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

The debt he supposedly paid was not his own, being blamesless and all, but "ours".

 

Admittedly, I've never understoof how god demanding a human sacrifice, and then committing suicide by cop to sacrifice himself to himself somehow magically absolves those who believe the story.

[Lilith]

No, no, no silly rabbits. Jesus tricked Satan. Jesus paid the price, went to hell and then, as Satan was looking over the books realized that Jesus was actually w/o sin, and didn't belong there. But it was too late. Jesus had already paid the price and it couldn't be taken back. Yet, Satan couldn't keep Him there (spiritual law that God put in place, or something....). So it was the ultimate trick. Aren't we Christians tricky for siding with the ultimate trickster?

 

Did I just say we??

[Fweethawt]

The Bible also teaches that:

sin is passed on through the man

Christ does not have a human male progenitor but was begotten of God

Christ was sinless and had no debt to pay

 

So then the entire life, death, and resurrection of Jesus becomes even more meaningless.

 

 

 

 

You have to be the absolute worst witness I've ever seen.

 

 

 

Those three things pretty much clear it up for me.

It wouldn't clear it up for you if you actually understood what you just wrote.

[Merlinfmct87]

The Bible also teaches that:

sin is passed on through the man

Christ does not have a human male progenitor but was begotten of God

Christ was sinless and had no debt to pay

 

Those three things pretty much clear it up for me.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I always was told that sin was passed through the woman, because she deceived man? The "Lust" for sin is through woman's 'contamination?'

 

Merlin

[Fweethawt]

I always was told that sin was passed through the woman, because she deceived man? The "Lust" for sin is through woman's 'contamination?'

 

Merlin

 

Yeah, but then you still have that old, children paying for the sins of their father's crap too.

 

 

[Ouroboros]

The Bible also teaches that:

sin is passed on through the man

Christ does not have a human male progenitor but was begotten of God

Christ was sinless and had no debt to pay

 

Those three things pretty much clear it up for me.

 

I understand your argument, but mine is not if Jesus paid his own debt, but did he pay ours?

 

He was the sacrificial lamb, the redeemer, the one paid in our place instead of us. So did he pay the debt with an uncovered check or didn't he pay it at all?

[Fweethawt]

So did he pay the debt with an uncovered check or didn't he pay it at all?

<<<clears throat>>>

 

See the third thing that "cleared it up" for him.

[Merlinfmct87]

Yeah, but then you still have that old, children paying for the sins of their father's crap too. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

So they have it both ways? How nice.

 

Merlin

[Ouroboros]

Ok, so the argument is that because Jesus was Gods son, then the payment didn't have to be the same or under the same agreement (contract) as the original agreement. And that is the difference between an Old Testament and a New Testament, that the rules changed, and a person, that was not from Male Human, but only from Female, and partially godly, could be enough to pay, by just spend a couple of days (our time).

 

If this is true, God changed the contract to only mean temporary death, why didn’t God do that to all humans from start? Everyone just has to be dead for three days, and then comes back. God had the power to do this contract change, he already did.

 

As I see it, the contract was changed so you have to be son of God and die for a short time (our time), then get completely restored, and that would be enough payment.

 

That’s interesting…

 

What about humans being tortured in hell for eternity for only their personal sins, and never getting back?

 

It must be good to be Gods son, lots of perks, and you never have to pay the same price as everyone else. If I die, I have to spend eternity in hell for not confessing to Jesus (a very minor sin in my opinion). And Jesus spend (still not eternity, maybe 3000 years heaven time, and 3 days our time), to pay for all sins. I guess God really want us to feel insignificant and inferior.

[Guest ^o^CORVUS^o^]

Yup. Favoritism really sucks doesn't it?

 

And wow...another way God is lacking in morality. He's also CORRUPT!

[Ouroboros]

Jesus "dined and dashed"

 

 

That's what I've been saying, Hell is just the big BBQ in Heaven.

Hell is were the party is ON! That's were it's happe'nin!

 

[edit]

Oh maybe I should explain this...

 

According to the Word of Faith movement I came from, Jesus actually went to Hell and fought the devil and won and then returned to earth. So that's why I connected the Dine&Dash idea with hell and BBQ etc. Stupid I know, but hey, I'm just an apostate.

[white_raven23]

The Bible also teaches that:

sin is passed on through the man

Christ does not have a human male progenitor but was begotten of God

Christ was sinless and had no debt to pay

 

 

Sin.

 

It's all about the semen.

[Sokudo Ningyou]

The Bible also teaches that:

sin is passed on through the man

Christ does not have a human male progenitor but was begotten of God

Christ was sinless and had no debt to pay

 

Those three things pretty much clear it up for me.

 

 

 

Sooo.....how exactly does Jesus' dying on the cross fix sin for the rest of us, if he himself had no sin? What's the point? That seems to pretty much clear it up for me; it's a complete scam. The bloody sacrifice that didn't even get us all a "Get Out Of Hell Free" card, considering we're all still born sinners no matter what.

[thomas]

The Bible also teaches that:

sin is passed on through the man

Christ does not have a human male progenitor but was begotten of God

Christ was sinless and had no debt to pay

 

Those three things pretty much clear it up for me.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

This relies pretty much on an interpretation of the bible going back to Augustin. When Augustin was a young man, he had a lot of different girlfriends and could not control his sexual desires. He felt, that his sexuality was a problem and started to search in different religions for an answer. After a short trip into some religion (I do not remember the name for it) he became a Christian, and lather one of the most influential church fathers.

 

Augustin invented the doctrine of original sin and believed that it was transmitted by the sexual act. I guess (but I am not sure about it), that the idea that Jesus had to be born by a virgin also goes back to Augustin.

 

MacGyver, when do you start to read your bible with an open mind, so you can see what is and what isn't there?

[Ouroboros]

MacGyver,

 

According to Chrisitanity, what is the price of sin?

 

Answer: Death which somehow also means eternal punishement- thus life- in hell.

 

If Jesus paid the price in your stead, then logic says he would be in hell, not heaven.  Innocent or not, he is supposed to be paying the full price of sin.

 

And even if Jesus was frying in hell for all eternity, how does one body in hell take the place of thousands?

 

Here's an analogy for you:

You have a friend who has committed a crime of some sort.  The judge awards the person the crime was comitted against $1,000.000 and sentences your criminal friend to 10 years in jail.  You step up, being blameless of this crime, and offer to take your friends place.  For whatever reason the judge accepts this.  Then you pay $100 and spend 2 days in jail, then call it even.  Is it even?  Has the price been paid?  You are innocent of the crime, does that mean your lessened time and payment should be equal to the full time and payment of the actual criminal?  No, the whole thing is senseless. 

 

So is the redemption/salvation theory.

 

Thank you Madam M, that’s exactly what I tried to say in my opening statement in this thread. The subject somehow got sidetracked, which I don’t mind at all, but the focus got a little lost. And that was probably because of my somewhat overcomplicated explanation of the problem. But I’m glad that you M see how this issue in the Bible is so clearly faulty.

 

And MacGyver, you have my full respect. I think it’s very brave of you to give input too, and I hope you will continue to do so, because this subject hasn’t been discussed before (I think), and I’m really interested in the explanation you would have to this discrepancy in the Bible.

 

So to state it again – and very simplified:

How can the payment for sin be only three days death, instead of eternal death?

 

And I don’t mind if the thread gets sidetracked again, as long as it can come back to this subject now and then, and see if there is really any explanation to this.

 

I my opinion God cheated. He didn’t pay the full price. And how could he do that? Because he was the receiver of the payment too!!! He was payee AND payer. It was a form of Enron bookkeeping, you place an order to yourself and you pay yourself and in the books it looks like you have an awesome business, but it’s all just AIR!

[thomas]

I my opinion God cheated. He didn’t pay the full price. And how could he do that? Because he was the receiver of the payment too!!! He was payee AND payer.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You are so right, it could never have been a real payment but only some proforma trick.

 

As I understand it, there have through the history of Christianity been different ideas about who was the reciever of the payment. The early Christians generally believed, that the payment was to the Devil, later came the ideas that the payment was made to God. I do not remeber all of it, but there are a lot of different theories in about it.

 

But if the Christian God really did exist, why wouldn't He just freeely forgive humans for their mistakes?

[Ouroboros]

it's funny how there is no "original grace/goodness" being passed on.  must be a recessive gene.  Thereby making sin a dominant gene.  And by logical conclusion making evil greater than good.

 

But we already knew that didn't we?  Since the bible states that God's will is for all men to be saved...yet he can't accomplish that.  "free will"  and by extension sin/evil is stronger than God.  Guess love doesn't conquer all afterall.  If it did there would be no hell.

 

Oh, this is cool, because I just read about the Free Will and how God allows evil etc, and you hit your head with the nail (just being little funny there), that basically Gods omnipotence is demolished by giving us free will to commit evil things. He can't stop us anymore.

[- AUB -]

Good thread, what bothers me most is that these concepts such as hell, original sin, blood payment for all sin are later inventions, not in the OT at all, and most barely even in the NT. They’re not mentioned until the church fathers. Shouldn't the whole silly thing be clear from the beginning? Why does it look like one layer of nonsensical shite was added onto another over several centuries? As a kid I struggled to find the interpreted significance xtianity put on jesus’s death within the pages of the bible, its not there. The order of development of xtian theology is the biggest factor against it.

[Guest vanesa]

Good thread, what bothers me most is that these concepts such as hell, original sin, blood payment for all sin are later inventions, not in the OT at all, and most barely even in the NT. They’re not mentioned until the church fathers.

 

I'll agree to that. Xtianity is nothing more than an overglorified Ponzi scheme and a fraud.

[- AUB -]

Yes, the whole "saved" thing has always bugged me, and to find out he never even existed just fills me hatred for the whole thing. I've never found an xtian who could explain it to my satisfaction, my mind won't let me comprehend it, weird but probably just my reason overriding my emotion. This is the gist of the matter, never mind the history, OT evils and hypocrisy of xtians. I want them to explain the most important element of their religion to me in a way I can understand, is that too much to ask? No fallacies, no lies, no illogical or irrational polemics, no emotionalism, no threats or bribes, appeal to my brain, not my chemicals.

[♦ ficino ♦]

The "saved" thing is one area where I think Catholic theology has it over Protestant. As you can see from the decree on justification of the Council of Trent, Catholic doctrine doesn't emphasize the legal payment of sin debt accomplished by Jesus' sacrifice, as Lutherans and Calvinists did. While not denying that, Catholic doctrine emphasizes how by grace God implants a new nature inside the person. Faith is the beginning stage of Christ-likeness, and that inner state becomes perfected in love. Lutherans et al say, when God looks at the saved person, He sees Jesus' blood there, which pays the debt. Catholics say, when God looks at the saved person, He sees the divine nature, of which love is the completion. The person has been raised to partake of the divine nature by the action of grace.

 

Not that this means much to me now. I am not sure it means anything to say that a human being is made a partaker of the divine nature (as II Peter says). But whatever. I never stop noticing how I believe Protestantism messed things up even worse than they were before the Reformation.

 

Ciao

[been borg again]

I always wondered by what magical mechanism is the original sin-curse passed on? It is outside of mans power to curse another, so I suppose the sin-curseing needs direct involvment from God, who has the power to curse humans. Unless GOd invented a auto-cursing machine that runs on autopilot, thus automatically cursing every man bron with original sin..... sort of like the magic machine that automatically strips away everyones freewill at the exact moment after death.

And the magic machine that keeps Hells Furnace burning.... hey its not Gods responsibility, he forgot how to operate the machinery that he invented, so he needs to kill himself to change the Rules.

uh huh.