Jesus never saved us

[Ouroboros]

I was thinking the other day and this morning, because of another thought that was raised in another thread.

 

Let’s look at the first contradiction in the Bible:

 

1)

Adam and Eve were told not to eat of the fruit of knowledge, and that fruit would give them the ability to distinguish between good and evil, right and wrong.

 

2)

They ate from the fruit, because they didn’t have the knowledge to distinguish between right and wrong. They were tricked, and couldn’t tell it was wrong.

 

.: They needed the “powers” of the fruit to be able to reason why not to eat the fruit.

 

So how could they avoid being tricked? God tricked them from start, he knew they would fail, and he let them. So what was it that was wrong? Disobedience and the Free Will to disobey!

 

The original sin is disobeying Gods law and rules, or using our free will to do so. But what are the results from it? Knowledge!

 

Today we can think, argue, reason and learn the difference between right and wrong, that knowledge and ability is the sin we’ve inherited, it’s basically the Frontal Lobe. We are born with it, we can think and reason and use our free will, and therefore we are born in sin.

 

God gave us Free Will and Thought, but to use it is a sin.

 

And this is the reason why religion always tries to remove reason and logic from us. Reasoning is the sin.

[Ouroboros]

And to add to my argument:

 

Jesus is the salvation, because it is a contradiction and unreasonable.

It doesn’t make sense, and it's not supposed to.

 

That’s why by believing it saves you.

Become an Idiot and you’re Saved.

[Philosopher Dave]

Here’s an argument I’d like to introduce to Christians and likes, and also to my friends at ExC.

 

The teaching I got was that Adams sin, was punishable with “the Death of Deaths”, as the meaning of an eternal death. Sin could not be redeemed, but it had to be paid for in full.

 

Presumably Jesus died and was resurrected after three days. Doesn’t that imply that Jesus cheated and didn’t pay the debt in full? Shouldn’t he still be dead, for the debt to be paid?

 

When I buy a soda in the store, I don’t give them my money, and then when I walk out from the store to actually request the money back. You pay, and you get a receipt. The receipt is the proof of payment.

 

To solve this puzzle there’s a couple of explanations that can be presented.

 

1) Either sin is not punishable with eternal death and torture.

 

2) Or Jesus is still dead, and was never resurrected.

 

3) Or Jesus was resurrected, but the only in a non corporeal form, and the body is still in the grave as a receipt of the purchase

 

The first explanation gives us a free pass regardless if we believe Jesus or not. We’re not going to hell for eternity. Good news for everybody.

 

The second explanation means that the Bible was wrong about the accounts of Jesus resurrection and he is still in the grave, and still is the payment for our sins.

 

And the last one shows also that the Bible was incorrect about the accounts, and Jesus never left the grave, but only showed himself in a incorporeal form, and the grave was never empty with angels proclaiming Jesus un-dead.

 

What’s your take on this?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Here's my two cents - as I existentially understand the issue. (And I'm not claiming that my explanation therefore means there is truth to the matter)

 

1. As I understand it, eternal death is not "burning in Hell for an eternity", but rather a permanent death, first of the body, then of the soul. So, those who reject Christ (notice I say those who reject, not 'those who have not heard') will definitely die. That is the eternal penalty to which the N.T. is alluding.

 

2. Jesus was God transformed into man. This allowed God to be mortal in some capacity, at least in a capacity sufficient to meet the purpose of paying for others sins. Furthermore, Jesus' death paid God, who in turn saves us from the Devil and then death. Because Jesus was divine in nature, and specified by the Father to be the atonement for sin, his sacrifice would therefore be efficacious for all of those who believe. With Jesus, there is a legal loophole, due to the fact that he was divine in nature, and that he was sinless. He could die physically, but not spiritually due to the fact that his acts and essence were still divine in nature. Therefore, it was impossible to keep him locked in death, for that would have fulfilled the 'death penalty' for humanity, but it also would have been unfair to allow a sinless man (the only one not subject to the penalty) to remain dead. Thus, the penalty for those who would believe, whether in the past looking forward, or for those contemporaneous, or for those looking back from the future, could all be forgiven in the 'new deal.'

 

3. It seems that Jesus' resurrected body was transformed into a multi-dimensional body. He could physically eat a fish, for instance, and then dissappear.

 

4. My own final point will be that...this thread is really stretching the issue. It isn't one I would use to debunk Christianity. There are better, more viable arguments, such as Jesus was just a myth, etc. Christianity makes some sense...if you buy into the system, and of course, assuming the system is true and real.

 

Ok guys.......ready, set, .....GO!! (As a philosopher, I'm used to being picked apart in class...so, go ahead....make my day )

[spamandham]

2.  With Jesus, there is a legal loophole, due to the fact that he was divine in nature, and that he was sinless. 

 

Doesn't it seem a bit silly for god to resort to "legal loopholes"? Since he is the legislative, executive, and judicial branches all rolled into one, is omniscient (should have seen all this coming), and is accountable to no-one, he could just say, "you know, this whole sacrifice business was really stupid, I don't know what I was thinking. Let's just forget it. Everyone come on in."

 

There's no sense in the concept of a 3rd party sacrifice.

 

I've thought of a way for future generations of apologists to gloss over this barbaric and stupid sacrifice business. They could claim that god never required any sacrifice (there are Biblical passages to support that view), but that Jesus sacrificed himself because people expected him to. In other words, he did it to convince them he was legit, not because god required it.

[Ouroboros]

Here's my two cents - as I existentially understand the issue.  (And I'm not claiming that my explanation therefore means there is truth to the matter)

I’m glad that some Christians still dare to give some input too, and that we haven’t scared everyone away.

 

1.  As I understand it, eternal death is not "burning in Hell for an eternity", but rather a permanent death, first of the body, then of the soul.  So, those who reject Christ (notice I say those who reject, not 'those who have not heard') will definitely die.  That is the eternal penalty to which the N.T. is alluding.

So would you say you subscribe to the belief that the “burning fire” is for the demons only, and humans that are not born again, will just basically be dead, the same way as an atheist believe we will anyway?

 

2.  Jesus was God transformed into man.  This allowed God to be mortal in some capacity, at least in a capacity sufficient to meet the purpose of paying for others sins.  Furthermore,  Jesus' death paid God, who in turn saves us from the Devil and then death.  Because Jesus was divine in nature, and specified by the Father to be the atonement for sin, his sacrifice would therefore be efficacious for all of those who believe.  With Jesus, there is a legal loophole, due to the fact that he was divine in nature, and that he was sinless.  He could die physically, but not spiritually due to the fact that his acts and essence were still divine in nature.  Therefore, it was impossible to keep him locked in death, for that would have fulfilled the 'death penalty' for humanity, but it also would have been unfair to allow a sinless man (the only one not subject to the penalty) to remain dead. Thus, the penalty for those who would believe, whether in the past looking forward, or for those contemporaneous, or for those looking back from the future, could all be forgiven in the 'new deal.'

I kind of suspected this loophole, but then, where does it say it in the Bible, that this really applies? Does it mean that the human part of Jesus actually is still dead and hence being the “receipt” of the payment?

 

3.  It seems that Jesus' resurrected body was transformed into a multi-dimensional body.  He could physically eat a fish, for instance, and then dissappear.

Like the ghosts in Ghostbuster!

What is that called again, Proto-plasma or something?

(Back to serious)

Did his body disappear from the grave or was it still left there?

 

4.  My own final point will be that...this thread is really stretching the issue.  It isn't one I would use to debunk Christianity.  There are better, more viable arguments, such as Jesus was just a myth, etc.  Christianity makes some sense...if you buy into the system, and of course, assuming the system is true and real.

Oh, I didn’t really bring up the subject to debunk Christianity, but to actually raise a question of an obvious problem in the Bible and the Gospels that no preacher talked about or explained. Preachers don’t even try to tackle this kind of conflict, just because it could eradicate some people’s beliefs with weak faith. Personally I never really thought about this issue until recently, even though it might be something you already have faced before.

 

Ok guys.......ready, set, .....GO!! (As a philosopher, I'm used to being picked apart in class...so, go ahead....make my day )

Again, I’m really glad that you put in some thought too, Dave, and please, let’s keep it coming. I don’t feel threatened if you have opposite opinions or arguments; it’s the discussion I like.

[Philosopher Dave]

So, wouldn't it be better for Christians not to share the "good news" since if one lacks the ability to believe, then it becomes bad news.  Whereas, if they have never heard, they will be judged on other criteria.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Well, Madame...I didn't quite say that a person is saved if they have not heard , but I do understand the utilitarian argument to which you are alluding. My premise is a bit different than a fundamentalist in that 1. I'm not the judge of others people's eternity, for I have no idea how God will ultimately play, or not play, an active role in anyone's particular life. What this means to me is that for those who have not heard, I see a large question mark written on their forhead--it could go either way. For the most part, I believe God has chosen people, but not in a strict Calvinistic way. Finally, I believe that those who God deems to be unworthy of eternal life will, in the final analysis, be people who personally didn't care that much about it, and don't feel a loss about it. Besides, even IF they did care, but were not chosen, they still wouldn't be able to care because....they would be dead, not burning for eternity.

 

I personally believe God will take more into consideration than whether or not a person responds favorably the acts and person of Christ. I think that the general 'call' of God plays a part. I really don't believe that the call of God entails a mere linguistic transmission, although it does play a part in our cognitive appraisals, as human beings, of the Gospel message. You might call me an inclusivist, whereas there are universalists on one side, and exclusivists on the other.

[Philosopher Dave]

Doesn't it seem a bit silly for god to resort to "legal loopholes"?  Since he is the legislative, executive, and judicial branches all rolled into one, is omniscient (should have seen all this coming), and is accountable to no-one, he could just say, "you know, this whole sacrifice business was really stupid, I don't know what I was thinking.  Let's just forget it.  Everyone come on in."

 

There's no sense in the concept of a 3rd party sacrifice.

 

I've thought of a way for future generations of apologists to gloss over this barbaric and stupid sacrifice business.  They could claim that god never required any sacrifice (there are Biblical passages to support that view), but that Jesus sacrificed himself because people expected him to.  In other words, he did it to convince them he was legit, not because god required it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Legal Loopholes, Batman! Actually, I'm not saying that God 'resorted' to legal loopholes, I'm merely saying that the state of the situation with Christ allows God to mediate two seemingly contradictory motifs in the structure of His being, i.e. Mercy and Justice. Neither concept is expendable. If we expend one or the other, the paradox is that we will ask, "What kind of God are you?"--at least, I do. Or is Justice not important to people in the website? But, from what I have seen, it at least seems that it is....at least as important as Mercy.

[Philosopher Dave]

I’m glad that some Christians still dare to give some input too, and that we haven’t scared everyone away.

So would you say you subscribe to the belief that the “burning fire” is for the demons only, and humans that are not born again, will just basically be dead, the same way as an atheist believe we will anyway?

I kind of suspected this loophole, but then, where does it say it in the Bible, that this really applies? Does it mean that the human part of Jesus actually is still dead and hence being the “receipt” of the payment?

Like the ghosts in Ghostbuster!

What is that called again, Proto-plasma or something?

(Back to serious)

Did his body disappear from the grave or was it still left there?

Oh, I didn’t really bring up the subject to debunk Christianity, but to actually raise a question of an obvious problem in the Bible and the Gospels that no preacher talked about or explained. Preachers don’t even try to tackle this kind of conflict, just because it could eradicate some people’s beliefs with weak faith. Personally I never really thought about this issue until recently, even though it might be something you already have faced before.

Again, I’m really glad that you put in some thought too, Dave, and please, let’s keep it coming. I don’t feel threatened if you have opposite opinions or arguments; it’s the discussion I like.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Hi Han,

 

I'm glad there are critical thinkers out there like you and many on this website. As I've already stated, I don't currently attend church, specifically because I, and my wife, have gotten tired of the typical, anti-intellectual approaches that seem to take place in churches where I live ( in particualr, the brand of christianity of the Word Faith movement, as well as general Pentecostalism and CharisMANIA). I'm still a Christian, but of a more philosophical type that is, I have found, quite a minority in Christendom.

 

Response 1. No, I wouldn't say that the burning fire is for demons only, I think they get metaphysically extinguished too. (as a side not, I believe that there will be no awareness, nor spite, nor hilarity over those who were 'lost'--I for one could not call it heaven if I were grieved for eternity--I rather think of God as 'wiping away the tears')

 

Response 2. I'll have to look at some versus about the loophole. Again, I'm not saying the biblical writers use this--it is a metaphor in my mind, but based on 17 years of bible reading, and the accumulation of a philosophy degree, and a few hundred academic theological texts. There might be a better way to articulate the matter.

 

Response 3. About Jesus' physical body. No, I believe that Jesus was 'transformed', back into a angelic substance so to speak. Just as the Angel of the Lord appeared with Abraham, ate, and dissappeared from the scence...I take it that this is analogous to what happened to Jesus. At the same moment his body was 'resuscitated', it was also changed physically into an inter-dimensional substance. Yes, funny that you mention it, maybe something like in Ghost-buster, but less gooey .

 

Anyway, that is my current take on it. Maybe it will change someday as I continue research. But I have found that after several years of looking a lot of this stuff from different academic angles, these 'forms' if you will have been difficulut for me to put away...but you never know.

 

Again, thanks for the discussion...it helps me to learn about where others are coming from philosophically as well. (And I'll try to post something here in the next day or so that illustrates the loophole idea---right now, something from C.S. Lewis comes to mind, but I'll try to pull out a couple of concise scriptures)

 

Take Care.

[Ouroboros]

Hi Han,

 

I'm glad there are critical thinkers out there like you and many on this website.  As I've already stated, I don't currently attend church, specifically because I, and my wife, have gotten tired of the typical, anti-intellectual approaches that seem to take place in churches where I live ( in particualr, the brand of christianity of the Word Faith movement, as well as general Pentecostalism and CharisMANIA).  I'm still a Christian, but of a more philosophical type that is, I have found, quite a minority in Christendom.

Cool, I came from WoF movement too, and Pentecostal. I was Christian for 30 years until 2 years ago. Things in my life, plenty of experiences and situations made start reevaluate my belief. But before my complete de-conversion, I went through a couple of years of “freethinking” Christian. It’s a good experience, because you start searching the answers yourself, and not base in on one single persons interpretation of the Bible.

 

Your philosophical side is just like me. I could never stop asking or searching during all my years as Christian, and still now, after I don’t have a faith, I still think and reason and argue. I love philosophy, just wish I could’ve started earlier in my life. It’s good that you’re here Dave. It’s a good addition to the group.

 

Response 1.  No, I wouldn't say that the burning fire is for demons only, I think they get metaphysically extinguished too.  (as a side not, I believe that there will be no awareness, nor spite, nor hilarity over those who were 'lost'--I for one could not call it heaven if I were grieved for eternity--I rather think of God as 'wiping away the tears')

So no BBQ then? Damn, I was expecting a partaay.

 

Response 2.  I'll have to look at some versus about the loophole.  Again, I'm not saying the biblical writers use this--it is a metaphor in my mind, but based on 17 years of bible reading, and the accumulation of a philosophy degree, and a few hundred academic theological texts.  There might be a better way to articulate the matter.

It might be true that the writers intended this meaning, but never really spelled it out. But still the conflict in the “contracts” is there, and has (as far as I know) never been preached or explained.

 

Response 3.  About Jesus' physical body.  No, I believe that Jesus was 'transformed', back into a angelic substance so to speak.  Just as the Angel of the Lord appeared with Abraham, ate, and dissappeared from the scence...I take it that this is analogous to what happened to Jesus. At the same moment his body was 'resuscitated', it was also changed physically into an inter-dimensional substance.  Yes, funny that you mention it, maybe something like in Ghost-buster, but less gooey .

Basically Jesus body was transformed into a meta-physical body? And because Jesus had a different “contract” for redemption, he didn’t have to leave his human soul or human body as a “receipt” for the payment.

 

Anyway, that is my current take on it.  Maybe it will change someday as I continue research.  But I have found that after several years of looking a lot of this stuff from different academic angles, these 'forms' if you will have been difficulut for me to put away...but you never know.

I think there is a big chance you will change, I did.

 

Again, thanks for the discussion...it helps me to learn about where others are coming from philosophically as well.  (And I'll try to post something here in the next day or so that illustrates the loophole idea---right now, something from C.S. Lewis comes to mind, but I'll try to pull out a couple of concise scriptures)

 

Take Care.

I’m looking forward to more exchanges of ideas.

[spamandham]

I'm merely saying that the state of the situation with Christ allows God to mediate two seemingly contradictory motifs in the structure of His being, i.e. Mercy and Justice.  Neither concept is expendable. 

 

Why are neither expendable? Both mercy and justice are human constructs derived from base animal instincts. It's not reasonable that a being who can neither be harmed nor benefited by anything would have either of these motifs.

 

If we expend one or the other, the paradox is that we will ask, "What kind of God are you?"--at least, I do.  Or is Justice not important to people in the website?

 

The paradox is how a complete and infinte being would be driven to either trait, not how to reconcile them. Not to mention, infinite punishment for finite crimes is not just by any reasonable measure. All god would have to do to "reconcile" this apparent contradiction would be to be reasonbale in doling out punishment in the first place, and not demand nonsensicle sacrifices that serve neither mercy nor justice.

 

How is there any justice in a third party sacrifice? There isn't. The person who committed the offenses pays no price. That isn't justice.

[Amanda]

Sooo.....how exactly does Jesus' dying on the cross fix sin for the rest of us, if he himself had no sin?  What's the point?    That seems to pretty much clear it up for me; it's a complete scam. The bloody sacrifice that didn't even get us all a "Get Out Of Hell Free" card, considering we're all still born sinners no matter what.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I love challenges, so all are welcome!!! One kind of sin brings death, a spiritual death, our energy in motion, emotions. Knowledge of good and evil gives the ability to judge. Judging unto victory is good. Pure love avoids judging to condemnation, and that is the forbidden fruit! Condemnation of self or others kills emotionally, spiritually!

 

Eve, tricked into self condemnation by contemplating the presupposition in "you will be like God knowing good and evil". Tricked into the lie she was not good enough, since she wasn't like God, caused her to condemn herself! We are all in the likeness of God. Adam became aware of Eve's new ability to reason, to judge, and knowingly took it too. His eyes were opened and he judged/reasoned he came from an animal-like nature. The spark of civilization! Adam condemned God and Eve, "its that woman You gave me", then Eve said the devil made her do it. Lack of knowing one's self (and everything) as part of God, and lacking responsiblity for one's own actions caused separation from the oneness. Leaving instinct, gaining ego, entering reasoning was an important evolutionary process. (Adam was not one man but a prototype, probably the crowmagnum man.)

 

Judgement caused laws, which of course perpetuated more condemnation. Civilization=good, condemnation=bad. Condemnation, killing emotions, spirit. Jesus delivers us out of this dark madness by modeling principles such as internal locus of control, what others say/do reveals who they are and not of whom they speak, revealed the value of each person is equal, strength through gentle nature, to lead is to serve, end condemnation, and our ability to forgive is for us and not the enemy, teaches us the purpose of the law is what is important and not the words of the law, changed us from obedience for integrity to a desire for integrity, etc.

 

Inside ourself is where we live. Jesus taught we can have heaven within us always, no matter what is going on outside of us. Providing an example to the way for a consistent heaven within, he had to endure the worst situation of all times, maintaining these many principles, so that no one can say he didn't have it as bad as they and therefore these principles were not good enough for them. Every demeaning, disrespectful act was perpetrated onto Jesus till his death. If Jesus would of said from the cross that we all needed to be anhialated, then he would of been contaminated with hatred and vendictiveness by our sins, yet he knew that is why we acted the way we did! He refused contamination of his self, forgave us because he knew we were doing the best we could, our actions were because of the contamination from sin in our lives. "Forgive them for they know not what they do," which is the principle of grace, ending condemnation. We must still be accountable and responsible for what we do, but how can we be mad at ourself or anyone for not doing better than our best? Yes, he rose as his spirit never died, existed in truth, and therefore showed us real life... spiritual life. The Way, the Truth, the Life. His spirit is now in EVERY person, emerging from within each person in his timing, not ours. Makes sense?

[Cerise]

I love challenges, so all are welcome!!! One kind of sin brings death, a spiritual death, our energy in motion, emotions. Knowledge of good and evil gives the ability to judge. Judging unto victory is good. Pure love avoids judging to condemnation, and that is the forbidden fruit! Condemnation of self or others kills emotionally, spiritually!

 

Eve, tricked into self condemnation by contemplating the presupposition in "you will be like God knowing good and evil". Tricked into the lie she was not good enough, since she wasn't like God, caused her to condemn herself! We are all in the likeness of God. Adam became aware of Eve's new ability to reason, to judge, and knowingly took it too. His eyes were opened and he judged/reasoned he came from an animal-like nature. The spark of civilization! Adam condemned God and Eve, "its that woman You gave me", then Eve said the devil made her do it. Lack of knowing one's self (and everything) as part of God, and lacking responsiblity for one's own actions caused separation from the oneness. Leaving instinct, gaining ego, entering reasoning was an important evolutionary process. (Adam was not one man but a prototype, probably the crowmagnum man.)   

 

Judgement caused laws, which of course perpetuated more condemnation. Civilization=good, condemnation=bad. Condemnation, killing emotions, spirit. Jesus delivers us out of this dark madness by modeling principles such as internal locus of control, what others say/do reveals who they are and not of whom they speak, revealed the value of each person is equal, strength through gentle nature, to lead is to serve, end condemnation, and our ability to forgive is for us and not the enemy, teaches us the purpose of the law is what is important and not the words of the law, changed us from obedience for integrity to a desire for integrity, etc.   

 

Inside ourself is where we live. Jesus taught we can have heaven within us always, no matter what is going on outside of us. Providing an example to the way for a consistent heaven within, he had to endure the worst situation of all times, maintaining these many principles, so that no one can say he didn't have it as bad as they and therefore these principles were not good enough for them. Every demeaning, disrespectful act was perpetrated onto Jesus till his death.     If Jesus would of said from the cross that we all needed to be anhialated, then he would of been contaminated with hatred and vendictiveness by our sins, yet he knew that is why we acted the way we did! He refused contamination of his self, forgave us because he knew we were doing the best we could, our actions were because of the contamination from sin in our lives. "Forgive them for they know not what they do," which is the principle of grace, ending condemnation.    We must still be accountable and responsible for what we do, but how can we be mad at ourself or anyone for not doing better than our best?    Yes, he rose as his spirit never died, existed in truth, and therefore showed us real life... spiritual life. The Way, the Truth, the Life.    His spirit is now in EVERY person, emerging from within each person in his timing, not ours. Makes sense? 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Quite frankly....no.

 

Was Jesus raped? You said every demeaning disrespectful act was perpetrated onto him till his death. I don't remember that particular "act" being highlighted in the scourge, but perhaps...

 

And people everyday are "worse off" then Jesus, even while he hung on his cross. You think there weren't other innocent people crucified during those times? Good men who got on the wrong side of some Romans? There were plenty of people treated just as horribly as Jesus supposedly was treated.

 

The only thing from this story that I can discern is that "spiritual death" really only lasts three days. Regardless of your "saved" status, otherwise, Jesus would not have rose again, as he was supposed to have paid the full price.

[Ouroboros]

 

Hi Amanda, I haven't seen you before, so here's my Welcome!

 

I saw your logo/title kind of hint that you're Christian, but your "Gods" text is more panteistic. So are you an open minded Christian or a Pantheist? Just curious.

[Cerise]

Legal Loopholes, Batman!  Actually, I'm not saying that God 'resorted' to legal loopholes, I'm merely saying that the state of the situation with Christ allows God to mediate two seemingly contradictory motifs in the structure of His being, i.e. Mercy and Justice.  Neither concept is expendable.  If we expend one or the other, the paradox is that we will ask, "What kind of God are you?"--at least, I do.  Or is Justice not important to people in the website?  But,  from what I have seen, it at least seems that it is....at least as important as Mercy.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

1. Justice and Mercy. Why do you think these are "seemingly" contradictory motifs and not actual contradictions?

 

Mercy is letting Karla out of jail now that she's wheeled and dealed her way through the system, to roam the nervous corners of Quebec. Mercy is what her parents did when they forgave her for luring her own sister to be raped and killed (which I still can't understand)

Justice is getting a big pipe and smashing Karla in the head with it until her brain is pulp. That's justice, and I wish someone would come along and perform it for her so we can all sleep better.

 

2. Why exactly does the situation with Christ allow God to mediate between mercy and justice? Could he not have done so another way that wouldn't result in third-party sacrifice...of himself. Because the whole sacrificing of the self in order to make reparations to yourself for some problem with something that you, yourself made...it doesn't add up to me.

[Ouroboros]

Eve, tricked into self condemnation by contemplating the presupposition in "you will be like God knowing good and evil". Tricked into the lie she was not good enough, since she wasn't like God, caused her to condemn herself! We are all in the likeness of God.

Adam became aware of Eve's new ability to reason, to judge, and knowingly took it too. His eyes were opened and he judged/reasoned he came from an animal-like nature. The spark of civilization! Adam condemned God and Eve, "its that woman You gave me", then Eve said the devil made her do it. Lack of knowing one's self (and everything) as part of God, and lacking responsiblity for one's own actions caused separation from the oneness. Leaving instinct, gaining ego, entering reasoning was an important evolutionary process. (Adam was not one man but a prototype, probably the crowmagnum man.)   

You actually are brushing into a subject I have been thinking about too, that the story about Eden is the story about how apes first became aware and knowledge, reasoning and faith sparked in their brains. It portrays the transition from non sentient being into sentient. And the underlining story in Genesis is that Knowledge and Reasoning is the inherited sin all humans carry. That’s why religion demands people to be stupefied, because that’s the salvation.

 

Judgement caused laws, which of course perpetuated more condemnation. Civilization=good, condemnation=bad. Condemnation, killing emotions, spirit. Jesus delivers us out of this dark madness by modeling principles such as internal locus of control, what others say/do reveals who they are and not of whom they speak, revealed the value of each person is equal, strength through gentle nature, to lead is to serve, end condemnation, and our ability to forgive is for us and not the enemy, teaches us the purpose of the law is what is important and not the words of the law, changed us from obedience for integrity to a desire for integrity, etc.   

Huh? It could be me, but it was a bit hard to read. Could you please humor me, and rephrase that, and break it out into more paragraphs.

 

Inside ourself is where we live. Jesus taught we can have heaven within us always, no matter what is going on outside of us. Providing an example to the way for a consistent heaven within, he had to endure the worst situation of all times, maintaining these many principles, so that no one can say he didn't have it as bad as they and therefore these principles were not good enough for them. Every demeaning, disrespectful act was perpetrated onto Jesus till his death.     If Jesus would of said from the cross that we all needed to be anhialated, then he would of been contaminated with hatred and vendictiveness by our sins, yet he knew that is why we acted the way we did! He refused contamination of his self, forgave us because he knew we were doing the best we could, our actions were because of the contamination from sin in our lives. "Forgive them for they know not what they do," which is the principle of grace, ending condemnation.    We must still be accountable and responsible for what we do, but how can we be mad at ourself or anyone for not doing better than our best?    Yes, he rose as his spirit never died, existed in truth, and therefore showed us real life... spiritual life. The Way, the Truth, the Life.    His spirit is now in EVERY person, emerging from within each person in his timing, not ours. Makes sense?

Also hard to follow, could you make separate paragraphs and have a punch line for each?

 

So you confirm that Jesus didn’t stay dead?

 

What is your explanation that God said to Adam that he would die because of his sins? And the experience shows that a person who dies, stay dead, so doesn’t it tell you God punishes sins with death, and you stay dead, not wake up three days later?

 

So if sin causes eternal death. And Jesus paid for our sins by dying instead of us. Why was he dead only three days?

 

I’ve got some other explanations, but what is yours?