Guest fender13 Posted January 20, 2007 Share Posted January 20, 2007 Hello I'm 13 and i had Christianity force-fed to me for well, 13 years and I decided i want to learn about the beliefs of atheism. I was always curious about the big bang theorie and more importantly what caused the big bang. Technically at the moment I'm not an ex christian since I'm still trying to learn more from different points of views and I'm not religous or non-religious. Right now my views on god are that.. I have no idea about whether or not god exists but I do think that if there is a god that "god" would be a movement not a "guiding force in our lives". Thanks, Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest fender13 Posted January 20, 2007 Share Posted January 20, 2007 also I think I might have posted this in the wrong forum so if a mod wants to move this to the right part of the forum please do so Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted January 20, 2007 Share Posted January 20, 2007 HelloI'm 13 and i had Christianity force-fed to me for well, 13 years and I decided i want to learn about the beliefs of atheism. There isn't much to learn. Atheism is simply a lack of belief in gods. At least that's how most Atheists define Atheism. Some disagree. We are not all of one mind. We're just a group of individuals that all share one thing in common - a lack of belief in gods. I was always curious about the big bang theorie and more importantly what caused the big bang.We may never know, and that's alright. Someone that better understands Quantum Mechanics can explain the latest theory better than I could.Technically at the moment I'm not an ex christian since I'm still trying to learn more from different points of views and I'm not religous or non-religious. You're still young. Don't rush it. Just keep looking and thinking. Question everything. Right now my views on god are that.. I have no idea about whether or not god exists but I do think that if there is a god that "god" would be a movement not a "guiding force in our lives". What would be different in your life if you did not believe in a god? Would you go rob a bank? Would you still help someone that needed help? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lycorth Posted January 20, 2007 Share Posted January 20, 2007 Welcome, fender13 It's a daunting thing, scrapping your old worldview and examining a new one, but you'll do fine, so long as you always seek the truth and never take easy answers or let someone else think for you. Like Dave said, Atheism is basically just the belief that no gods exist. That's it. Not that someone has no religion, no spirituality, no opinions on an afterlife, or anything else but simply the belief that no gods exist. Many of us are Atheists as a result of underlying Agnosticism; after all, no one knows for sure what's really out there, but the evidence suggests that, despite what Theists would claim, there are no gods of any sort. But you're young, so yes, don't rush it. Learn, grow, and study. And never be afraid to challenge what you're told or what you discover. The truth can withstand any challenge. Wikipedia is an excellent resource for looking up these things. I have also tried to gather what I felt are the most useful links in regards to Atheism and anti-xianity; you can find the pages for those by clicking here. Hopefully, they will be of some help to you. Good luck on your journey, and drop in any time - there's lots to learn here and plenty of folks to help with that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unknowing1 Posted January 20, 2007 Share Posted January 20, 2007 HelloI'm 13 and i had Christianity force-fed to me for well, 13 years and I decided i want to learn about the beliefs of atheism. I was always curious about the big bang theorie and more importantly what caused the big bang. Technically at the moment I'm not an ex christian since I'm still trying to learn more from different points of views and I'm not religous or non-religious. Right now my views on god are that.. I have no idea about whether or not god exists but I do think that if there is a god that "god" would be a movement not a "guiding force in our lives". Thanks, Rob Hi fender13, It seems that you are on the right track. My son is 14 and I have always told him to question and wonder and use his brain to reason. He isn't overly religious either. He has attended church but has no interest in going on a regular basis. If I had to classify him as anything it would be agnostic, he's not sure if there really is/was a God, but he doesn't believe in the Bible and he feels that Jesus was a man nothing more. You seem to be doing exactly what I have told him to do, research and apply reason, always question and make sure to look at both points of view. I commend you for wanting information and for wanting that information from various sources. You sound like a very nice young man who has his head on straight. Stay that way! Mosey around the website and especially visit the Frequently asked Questions section. Now, as a mom I have to say this, stay out of the Sex and Christianity Forum! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exbeliever Posted January 20, 2007 Share Posted January 20, 2007 HelloI'm 13 and i had Christianity force-fed to me for well, 13 years and I decided i want to learn about the beliefs of atheism. I was always curious about the big bang theorie and more importantly what caused the big bang. Technically at the moment I'm not an ex christian since I'm still trying to learn more from different points of views and I'm not religous or non-religious. Right now my views on god are that.. I have no idea about whether or not god exists but I do think that if there is a god that "god" would be a movement not a "guiding force in our lives". Thanks, Rob Hi fender, Questioning your beliefs is always a good idea no matter where the answers lead you (even if you end up believing exactly what you were questioning in the first place). Do your parents know about your questions? This site can be very helpful, but also (sometimes) very "adult." I wonder if your parents would be willing to join you here and be part of your conversations with some of the ex-christians. A couple of the ex-christian statements above are a good place to start. Atheism and Christianity are two very different types of beliefs. Christianity is a "worldview." Worldviews cover many different areas of beliefs. They determine your ethics (i.e. what you think is right and wrong), your cosmology (i.e. how you think the universe got here), your purpose in life, etc. Atheism is not a worldview. It is a simple belief about one thing--i.e. the existence of a god or gods. It doesn't tell you how you should think about what is right and wrong, about how the universe got here, and about what your purpose in life is. Atheists can have very different worldviews. For example, many Buddhists are atheists. Buddhism is a worldview that answers the other questions that atheism doesn't address. There are Platonist and neo-Platonist atheists. These atheists believe there are non-material entities (i.e. "things" that aren't made of matter) like moral rules, logical laws, etc. The most common worldview held by atheists is materialism/physicalism. This worldview answers all questions by referring to matter (some things are immaterial, but they supervene (i.e. they "reflect off of") on matter. Atheism is tricky to define. A lot of times, words are defined in different ways. Sometimes there is a popular definition that is different from the definition that experts in the field use. This happens a lot in science. Gravity, for instance, is often described as the effect a mass has on another mass (e.g. a planet has on a person's body). Technically, though, it is much more complicated and, according to the most popular theory, is about curvatures in space. Atheism is defined very differently at different levels. The popular definition of atheism is "the belief that there is no god or gods," but this is not the definition that most "experts" use (I define an atheist "expert" as someone who calls herself an atheist and who has some kind of training in philosophy--whether through self-study or school). These experts tend to think of atheism as "the lack of belief in a god or gods." This is why the definition is important. Let's say that someone came up to you and said, "Unicorns exist." They are making a statement about how they think the world is. You might say to them, "Gee, I don't know if I believe that. Unicorns are always described as mythological characters. Can you prove to me that unicorns exist?" There is a way for them to prove their statement, right? They can simply show you a unicorn. But let's say that you made the statement, "Unicorns do not exist," and someone said, "Can you prove to me that unicorns do not exist?" How would you go about doing that? You would have to show them every place in the universe at the same time to show them that there are no unicorns living anywhere. That's impossible. So, many expert atheists do not say, "I believe that there is no god or gods." Instead, they simply say, "I do not hold the statement, 'There is a god or gods," in my web of beliefs." Because these people do not hold this statement in their web of beliefs, they are not theists (i.e. they are not people who believe, "There is a god or gods") so they call themselves atheists--i.e. people who are without theistic beliefs. Now, there are some atheists that have stronger beliefs than others. They would probably agree that they can't prove the statement, "There is no god or gods," but they believe that some ideas about gods can be proven not to exist. The way they do this is they try to show that a particular idea of a god or gods is a contradiction. Contradictions, they believe, cannot exist. So, for instance, it is not unreasonable to believe that "square circles" do not exist. A square has a definition and a circle has a different definition and these cannot both exist in the same entity. Some atheists believe that it is a contradiction to think that an all-powerful, all-wise, all-good, free god can exist and that evil can exist in the world (this is called the "problem of evil"). Personally, I don't think this is a good argument (for many complicated reasons I won't go into), but this is what many atheists believe. If they could prove their point, though, it would not be unreasonable for them to say, "This god does not exist." Some people think there is a third category called "agnosticism." This word was invented as a joke. "Gnosis" means "knowledge." The guy that came up with this definition (Huxley) said that every one seemed to "know" something, but that he didn't have any kind of knowledge (i.e. gnosis). He jokingly said that he was "agnostic"--i.e. "without knowledge." You really don't need this category if you define atheism like the experts I described above. You could call those that believe that certain ideas of god are contradictions, "strong atheists," and those that do not hold the statement, "There is a god," in their web of beliefs, "weak atheists." There would be no need to call anyone "agnostic" (which was a joke to begin with). I was always curious about the big bang theorie and more importantly what caused the big bang. That is a good question. The thing is, it is not really a question for atheists. Remember, atheism is only about one thing--i.e. the existence of a god or gods. Your question is scientific and not about whether or not a god exists. There are many different answers to your questions, some scientific and some philosophical. I'm not a scientist/physicist, so I can't tell you about the scientific answers. I've read some about them, so I know that there are some who have posited a ten-dimensional universe filled with strings whose vibrations can be the cause of something like the big bang (yes, that sounds strange to me to, but, again, I'm not a scientist so it might make sense). There are other answers that describe the behavior of vacuums. I am a philosopher (or, at least, a PhD student in philosophy), so I can tell you a little about the philosophical answers. Many (or, really, most) philosophers are not "realists" when it comes to science. A realist believes (1) that scientific theories try to tell us something about how the world really is and (2) that believing a scientific theory means believing that the things the theory say exist actually exist in the real world [so, a realist, for example, who believed in "string theory" would believe that strings in a 10-dimensional universe really exist.]. Non-realists (they have a lot of different names like "constructive empiricists," "instrumentalists," and "fictionalists"--we, philosophers, are mean and like to confuse people with weird names) point out that we don't have direct access to many of the things different scientific theories say exist and that, in the past, science hasn't been good at really discovering non-observable entities. For instance, scientific theories once believed that the whole universe was filled with ether. Now, this is rejected. Most philosophers of science believe that scientific theories like the Big Bang can be good and helpful, but that you can believe the theory without believing the entities it says exist, really exist. Also, philosophers point out that we will never know if a scientific theory is really describes what really happens. We have certain observations about the universe (e.g. it is expanding and there is cosmic background radiation). The Big Bang theory predicted these things. But this does not mean that the Big Bang theory is true; it only means that the Big Bang theory explains the way the universe behaves. It might be that the universe came about in a way totally different than the Big Bang, but that both the Big Bang theory AND the "real theory" perfectly explain the event. *** Sorry if that is more than you wanted to know. I encourage you to keep questioning, and, if your parents are willing, bring them into your questioning on this forum. I would be glad to talk more about it with you and them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loren Posted January 20, 2007 Share Posted January 20, 2007 also I think I might have posted this in the wrong forum so if a mod wants to move this to the right part of the forum please do so Thank you, fender and welcome! Enjoy your time here and I hope you'll get plenty of food for thought. Again, welcome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted January 20, 2007 Share Posted January 20, 2007 This is just an observation..... Look at the answers that the Atheists here gave you. No one here told you how to think or believe. They just told you to think and encouraged you to explore and question. Now contrast that with what many religious people would tell you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caretaker Posted January 20, 2007 Share Posted January 20, 2007 It sounds like you are in the same boat I was in. When I was younger, I was always taken to church, and when I was with my grandmother or uncle on my mother's side, religion was pushed into me even more. From the start, I always felt there was something that just didn't seem right. Throughout the years, I had no interest in participating in religion whatsoever, and finally called myself atheist when I went to college. I am rather fortunate that my mother does not love me any less for not believing in God. Others are not so lucky. Some have basically cut ties to family. How dedicated are your parents to raising you a Christian? Would they react badly if you left Christianity? Or would they accept you for who you are? These days, some Christian parents feel that being an atheist is worse than being gay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JGJ@ReligionisBullshit Posted January 20, 2007 Share Posted January 20, 2007 Welcome. As far as the Big Bang is concerned I might be able to help. What caused the Big Bang? That's an easy answer, we don't know. All we can confidently say is we can speculate as to what happened back to a fraction of the first second. There are many guesses as to the cause, but these speculations have not been proven scientifically. Science, especially quantum mechanics, cosmology, and the like has very few theories that have been defined well enough to become a "universal truth." That is the great thing about science over religion. Religion claims infallability, never wrong and unquestionable, about everything it believes in while science has always considered itself as a work in progress, open to debate and new discoveries. This is funny since the Christian beliefs have evolved significantly over time. The Big Bang Theory has been around since 1927 and was an attempt to explain why galaxies are moving away from us. Don't misunderstand that because they are moving away from us that we are the center of the universe because at the same time that some galaxies are moving away from us, some are moving closer to us. Our closest neighboring galaxy, the Andromeda Galaxy, is moving towards us and may eventually collide with our own galaxy. Have you ever heard a car or train move past you? You can hear the tone of the car or train raise in pitch as it gets closer and then lower in pitch as it moves away. This is how they can tell which galaxies and stars are moving towards us and which are moving away from is, not from using sound but by using light. Edwin Hubble was the first to discover this. It is called Red-shift. Galaxies that are moving away from us are seen as red light and the ones moving toward us are shown as blue light. By years of careful observation of this red-shift we have shown that the universe is expanding from some point in space, hence the Big Bang. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mythra Posted January 20, 2007 Share Posted January 20, 2007 Boy, there have been some really good posts here. Nice work, guys. I'm going to second what Dave said. Most atheists will encourage a young mind such as fender's to think for oneself. Don't believe anything simply because someone else thinks you should believe it. (even if it's your parents) And, when something doesn't add up to you - investigate it. Since the internet has come into being, it's ridiculously easy to find answers. But, even then - verify by other sources (even examining opposing viewpoints) before you come to a conclusion. None of these issues are easy. Especially when you're 13. But I have to say, fender - you are on a much better track than I was at your age. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest fender13 Posted January 20, 2007 Share Posted January 20, 2007 Thanks for all the responses! I'm still not sure about whether or not there's a god but I spent a lot of time thinking about it and I still think I have no idea if there's a god or not and I probably never will. I was amazed that after all these responses nobody told me what to think which is something very new to me when it comes to talking about religion! Thank you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest fender13 Posted January 20, 2007 Share Posted January 20, 2007 Also what could of created those strings, or are those strings philosophical. could those strings be "god" in a sense that they created themselves and began to move? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chefranden Posted January 20, 2007 Share Posted January 20, 2007 I think you've gotten some darn good answers here. I just going to throw in that the big bang ain't necessarily so. There are scientists that don't think so. They aren't well known because they tend not to get jobs when they go against the mainstream. I say that no one including the BigBangers know how the whole shebang got going. In addition I don't think that any of the actual scientific* theories either prove or disprove god, gods, or what have you. *Does not include Creation Science, or Intelligent Design. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JGJ@ReligionisBullshit Posted January 20, 2007 Share Posted January 20, 2007 Also what could of created those strings, or are those strings philosophical.could those strings be "god" in a sense that they created themselves and began to move? That depends on your definition of "god." If your god is that which can create themselves; you could think of it that way. However, some would argue that it is a very limited definition of "god" since, normally, a god requires some form of worship. In that limited view, gravity could be considered as "god" since gravity pulls molecules together to form Hydrogen and Helium to create a star. The star, too, could be considered a god since the nuclear fusion within the core creates heavier elements and eventually ejects them to combine with others to make up life itself. I could go into string theory but it would probably put you to sleep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest fender13 Posted January 20, 2007 Share Posted January 20, 2007 I read about the string theorie on stringtheorie.com and I don't think I understood it. Are there a bunch of tiny strings floating around, and how does that explain existence? And what I'm trying to discover is not so much if there's something that's controlling our lives but if there was a super natural force of some kind that made it's self then made everything else. -Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JGJ@ReligionisBullshit Posted January 21, 2007 Share Posted January 21, 2007 There is really no easy way to describe string theory without making a huge post here. To understand it you would need to know some basic concepts of physics, as well as understand Einstein's theory of general relativity. It's not as daunting as it sounds. If you want to learn about it and need something that isn't math heavy or way over your head (and most other people's,) I would suggest reading Our Living Multiverse by Fred Adams. Back to your question. If there was a "supernatural force" of some kind that made itself then made everything else, that would be god. That lies in the realm of religion. The aim of science is to find the "natural force" or use those forces that we know of to explain the universe. That is the limitation of science, we can only use what we know to discover that in which we don't. Religion uses what we don't know and can't know to explain the Universe and everything else is heresy to even think about. Everytime that science has moved something from religion's "don't know" or "can't know"; religion eventually (though it may take decades or centuries) ends up conceding and changing thier perspective. Religion is only as infallable as common accepted knowledge allows and science continually updates that knowledge. If it were all left to religion, we sould still be on a flat earth at the center of the Universe suffering from diseases and maladies that medicines destroyed or controlled centuries ago. We would pray for everything we need and take no steps to advance our knowledge beyond what is found in the Bible or Qu'ran. We would effectively still be in the Middle Ages or earlier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piprus Posted January 21, 2007 Share Posted January 21, 2007 Greetings, fender13, and welcome. I was about your age when I too became a questioner, and gradually made my exit from the christian belief system. Congrats on your decision to investigate. Enjoy the journey. Like others have said, since the internet is with us you have boatloads of information at your fingertips. I hope you'll take advantage at every opportunity. THere's a boatload of pro-christian information out there too. Go ahead...compare and contrast. What's most important is that you arrive at a belief (or non-belief) structure that makes it for you. I hope you'll stick around here as well. There are some extraordinarily well-educated ex-christians that make some fascinating posts on these threads. Nice to have you with us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted January 21, 2007 Share Posted January 21, 2007 I read about the string theorie on stringtheorie.com and I don't think I understood it.Are there a bunch of tiny strings floating around, and how does that explain existence? I wouldn't worry about it. Neither you nor I are theoretical physicists so knowing the answer isn't likely to put food on the table or a roof over your head. And what I'm trying to discover is not so much if there's something that's controlling our lives but if there was a super natural force of some kind that made it's self then made everything else.-Rob How could something create itself? Brahman created herself so I guess it could be done. She made the sound; "ohmmmmmmm" and that created herself and the Universe. But if she didn't exist until she made that sound, how could she make the sound? Back to your creator god..... Why would it create all this? Why this way? How did it do it? Is this imperfect Universe the best a it could do? If everything required a creator, wouldn't the creator need a creator? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShackledNoMore Posted January 21, 2007 Share Posted January 21, 2007 Fender, I think the advice someone gave to question everything is right on the money. It's good to have you here. There's information out there on what most scientists think happened shortly after the big bang, but the origins of the universe is not that fully understood at this point in time. Relativity is a pretty hard study, and it is a testament to Einstein's brilliance. Few understood it when Einstein came out with his Theories. String theory, well, it's mind boggling to me, and it's definitely cutting edge in terms of human understanding. I'm fascinated, though, with the watered down explanations I've seen about it intended for the general public. Maybe String theory will become better established over time as we learn more and develop the mathematics to describe it, maybe we'll refine it, or maybe we'll learn more find an alternative that better fits what we have learned than String theory. That's the wonderful thing about science: it's a quest that ever refines what we know about the universe, and if we find out we are wrong we can try again. 100 years ago would wouldn't have been able to ask the questions you're asking about the universe now, because the groundwork for them hadn't yet been conceived. Hopefully, 100 years from now, not only will there be answers more readily available, but 13 year olds will be able to ask questions we can't conceive of today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest fender13 Posted January 21, 2007 Share Posted January 21, 2007 So right now I believe that there isn't a god making us do stuff but there Might have been some sort of god that created something that became what we have now. Is that weak atheism or is it agnosticism? Again, Thanks for all the help, Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exbeliever Posted January 21, 2007 Share Posted January 21, 2007 So right now I believe that there isn't a god making us do stuff but there Might have been some sort of god that created something that became what we have now.Is that weak atheism or is it agnosticism? Again, Thanks for all the help, Rob That's Deism, actually. It is still a kind of theism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lycorth Posted January 21, 2007 Share Posted January 21, 2007 So right now I believe that there isn't a god making us do stuff but there Might have been some sort of god that created something that became what we have now.Is that weak atheism or is it agnosticism? Again, Thanks for all the help, Rob Yeah, like exbeliever said, that would be Deism, or rather a form of it. I used to be a Deist, myself; Deism states that there is a god who made the universe but is relatively uninvolved with it. It emphasizes using reason and scientific truth, as well as one's own good sense and experiences, to come to understand this god as well as a general rule of life. Again, wikipedia has a good article on Deism (and Atheism and Agnosticism also), and there's always deism.com and deism.org, if you want Deist-based websites. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurisaz Posted January 21, 2007 Share Posted January 21, 2007 Now contrast that with what many religious people would tell you. Though not all religious people will do hat... (Sorry couldn't resist) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurisaz Posted January 21, 2007 Share Posted January 21, 2007 I was amazed that after all these responses nobody told me what to think which is something very new to me when it comes to talking about religion! You're welcome Err, sorry for not having said that before, greetings from the most active Asatruar (follower of the High Gods of the North) in this place Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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