Trying To Learn.

[exbeliever]

Can I add one more observation? [i'll try to make this one shorter. ]

 

Christianity (and all religions, really) present "answers" across the board. It is hard to imagine a question for which the answers "God did it," or "God says so," does not fit.

 

How did the universe get here? God did it.

 

Why is the sky blue? God did it.

 

Why is it wrong to murder? God says so.

 

Why should I go to church? God says so.

 

Why do zebras have stripes? God did it.

 

"God" is the kind of thing that, by its nature, can be the answer to anything. God is a being that is all-powerful, all-wise, and free. There is nothing this being cannot do, so there is no question which he cannot be referred to as an answer.

 

So, you have believed in Christianity and, because of this, you have had an "answer" to every question in life. Now, you are wondering what are the consequences if you give up the idea of God altogether. What are the answers without God?

 

Some ex-christian atheists are very uncomfortable without answers to everything. You'll see them only a week or two after they leave their faith and they will have latched onto another complete worldview (e.g. objectivism or materialism) so that they can offer answers to everything. I've seen recently deconverted ex-christians preach string-theory like it was a book of their Bible. Others taught Ayn Rand (and her proteges) as a prophet and hang on her every word just like they did when they were religious.

 

Others of us who leave the faith (or, really, have the faith leave us), are okay with not having all the answers. We can deal with ambiguity.

 

I spent over 25 years as a Christian. When I got out of it, I realized how it had controlled my mind. I realized that I had "let my guard down" (intellectually speaking) because I wanted to believe so badly. I had accepted "answers" that I really shouldn't have it I had been thinking, because I bought into the system.

 

When I no longer believed, I was determined that I would never be captured by another system, that I would question everything and not jump to solutions too quickly. That means, of course, often not having answers to big questions.

 

But ask yourself, is it better to not have an answer or to believe a silly answer just because it presents itself as an answer?

 

Imagine a conversation between Socrates and Euthyphro. As they are speaking, a lightning bolt strikes a tree they are standing near. This conversation takes place:

 

Euthyphro: Socrates, how do you explain that lightning? I believe that Zeus threw it down to earth.

Socrates: Gee, I don't know how to explain lightning, but I bet it has an answer that has nothing to do with the gods.

 

Here, Euthyphro has an "answer," and Socrates doesn't have one. But, as it turns out, we now can explain lightning without reference to a god. So, who was the smart one? The one who jumped to an "answer" just because it was available or the one who withheld judgment and was okay with not having an answer?

 

If you were to ask me, "How did the universe get here?" I would say, "I don't know." If you asked the same question to a Christian, they would give an "answer," but is it really a good answer?

 

God is a being who thinks, but doesn't have a brain. Is that even possible? We've never experienced anything like that. Should we accept something so far out of our experience as a "solution" to a problem? Wouldn't it be better just to say, "I don't know"?

 

I prefer ambiguity to "forced" answers.

[Thackerie]

... I'm still not sure about whether or not there's a god but I spent a lot of time thinking about it and I still think I have no idea if there's a god or not and I probably never will. ...

 

Hi, Fender - and welcome!

 

I probably started thinking about the "god question" when I was about your age. Now, I am almost four times your age but I could still make the very same statement as you did above.

 

Anyway, I just wanted to let you know that it makes me very happy whenever I learn of young people such as yourself who are open-minded and eager to learn. Gives me hope for the future. Thank you!

[Dave]

Now contrast that with what many religious people would tell you.

 

Though not all religious people will do hat...

 

(Sorry couldn't resist)

I know, which is why I used the word "many" and not "all". Too many would try to recruit any youth they could. They younger they get them the better chance they have of indoctrinating them for life.

[Antlerman]

Hi Fender and welcome. Like a lot of us here, I can sure relate to being your age when these questions about my own existence were really coming on. "What is behind all this?", and questions like that, the universe, and the curiosity of my own existence.

 

I seem to have taken for granted being amongst a group of very open-minded people here, and am struck by seeing how no one is telling you "the answers". They are right in contrasting this with the religious communities, that I was a part of in my own pursuit of "answers". They are always extremely eager to tell you what "the truth" is. Simple answers are appealing and draw a lot of people in, but they rarely satisfy for long, especially to a mind that craves knowledge. The questions are just too complex for simple answers, but the exploration of possiblities is what makes us grow.

 

Welcome to the site and feel free to avail yourself of the diverse community of thoughts here.

[R. S. Martin]

Fender, I'm so happy to see you asking questions. I'm also happy that you have the opportunity to access the internet. My own nephews and nieces are in a horse and buggy Mennonite community and have no access to information as "way outside" as this site. Their community forbids them to own computers or to access the internet.

 

There are a number of things in this thead that I would like to respond to.

 

1. Who/what is god? Does god exist?

 

I was convinced of god's existence because of the feeling of awe I would get from the beauties of nature and the like. Then I read an article that explained how scientists can stimulate a part of the brain to make the person feel like there were a Presence in the room, and other religious experiences. There are scientific explanations for all but a very few "supernatural" phenomena.

 

2. Who/what brought the universe into being?

In my mind it does not matter how the universe came into being. It's here. I am here. My job is to live morally, enjoy life, and be a joy for those around me.

 

Like someone else said, it is important to know that there are Christians and also Muslims who practice pseudo-science to make the world fit the Bible or Q'uran. For that kind of thinking, a person decides what the answer should be, then finds facts to prove that the answer is right. This is sort of like building the cribbing then pouring the concrete. Science looks at what the facts are, then figures out what makes the facts. This is like finding the tip of a branch then exploring where it goes.

 

3. Existentialism

One of your questions was about existence. There is a field of philosophy called existentialism. I mention it so you know the word (if you don't already) in case at some point you want to study up on it. If you are interested in philosophy, here is a book about the history of philosophy that was written for people your age and maybe a bit older: Sophie's World: A Novel about the History of Philosophy, by JOSTEIN GAARDER.

 

4. Might God make us do things?

This question struck me as very serious. God does not make us do things, Fender. We decide and choose what we will do. This makes me responsible for the things I do and say. I cannot excuse myself and say "God made me do it." Think about what happens in each of these two cases:

 

a. God made me do it.

 

b. I decided to do it.

 

What kind of society does the first one make? What kind of society does the second one make?

[Ouroboros]

Good posts.

 

Btw Fender, if there is a god or not, still you are the Almighty Decision Maker when it comes to believing or following such a god. That makes you the highest supreme being, even above god himself. Your will decide the outcome of your life - your will alone. So remember this, you are the only god that you know to exist for sure.

[Curtdude]

....So, you have believed in Christianity and, because of this, you have had an "answer" to every question in life. Now, you are wondering what are the consequences if you give up the idea of God altogether. What are the answers without God?

 

Some ex-christian atheists are very uncomfortable without answers to everything. ...

 

Others of us who leave the faith (or, really, have the faith leave us), are okay with not having all the answers. We can deal with ambiguity.

 

....When I no longer believed, I was determined that I would never be captured by another system, that I would question everything and not jump to solutions too quickly. That means, of course, often not having answers to big questions.

 

But ask yourself, is it better to not have an answer or to believe a silly answer just because it presents itself as an answer?

 

...I prefer ambiguity to "forced" answers.

 

Hey exbeliever, what a fine set of ideas you just wrote about. Wow. You made a very good analysis of the effects of brainwashing and the need to go beyond its "all-or-nothing" sort of thinking. I totally agree that a person can become an apostate, but still be enslaved by religion's method of thinking.

 

Welcome to the site, fender13. I hope all of us can provide some insight into why we left christianity, and how we deal with our lives now.

[R. S. Martin]

I wonder if fender's parents caught him at this. If he lives in Nova Scotia as he says, then he was writing very late at night on Friday, and quite a bit on Sat. No hide or hair of him since. My guess is Christian parents would rather have him read porn than THIS!

 

With the mind he's got, however, I think he will make use of the bit he learned from this brief discussion. One can only hope that he doesn't get punished too hard and that he can resist the brain-washing until he comes of age where he can make his own decisions.

 

I like his avatar: If I have to find Jesus does that mean he's hiding?

 

You know what--I just assumed that fender was a boy but girls can ask this kind of questions, too. I know I did so far as I was allowed.

[Ouroboros]

I like his avatar: If I have to find Jesus does that mean he's hiding?

Good point!

 

Isn't that a good analogy, playing hide-and-seek and the person hiding will kill you if you can't find you!

 

(oops I mean, if you can't find him or her.)

[Guest fender13]

Heres a problem I can't get past though.

I'm assuming there was origonally nothing so in order for anything to be created it would first have to create it's self.

i was thinking that one atom of electricity could have formed and since there was nothing pushing against it it would expand until it blew up but that one atom would have to make it's self. Does that in some way make that atom a "god."?

[Asimov]

I was amazed that after all these responses nobody told me what to think which is something very new to me when it comes to talking about religion!

Thank you!

 

Dude, it's called reverse psychology.

[R. S. Martin]

Heres a problem I can't get past though.

I'm assuming there was origonally nothing so in order for anything to be created it would first have to create it's self.

i was thinking that one atom of electricity could have formed and since there was nothing pushing against it it would expand until it blew up but that one atom would have to make it's self. Does that in some way make that atom a "god."?

 

I'm so glad you asked. That is one of my own questions and I hope someone has some kind of logical answer. I asked an atheist this past fall about this and he said, "We don't know."

 

I don't quite know how to make sense of it all. Over the centuries Western science has invested billions upon billions of dollars* in space research. What for? I don't know. Maybe to prove whether Genesis or evolution is true? And it seems we're back to where we started: we still don't know how the universe came into being.

 

I personally have decided that it is not important. It is here. I am in it. It is my job to live a productive and joyful life. Just to complicate things I also found out that there are more universes out there than our own. That means the picture is far more humungous than I had thought.

 

However, Fender, you have a more scientific mind than I do and I am sure you can grasp it if someone can explain it. I hope someone will try.

 

*I have no idea how much but it has to be vast amounts.

[exbeliever]

Heres a problem I can't get past though.

I'm assuming there was origonally nothing so in order for anything to be created it would first have to create it's self.

i was thinking that one atom of electricity could have formed and since there was nothing pushing against it it would expand until it blew up but that one atom would have to make it's self. Does that in some way make that atom a "god."?

 

So, there is this question you have, "How did the universe come into existence?"

 

Christianity has an answer: "An all-powerful being that thinks but does not have a brain (because it is immaterial) did it by some means that we don't and never will understand."

 

Science does not have a definitive answer to this question. It says that it does not know yet, but that it is working on it.

 

Why is Christianity's answer so much more appealing? Is it even possible for an immaterial being to exist? Is it possible for a being to have thoughts without a brain? Why should we think this is possible.

 

In effect, Christianity's answer is no answer at all. It posits an incredible being who does something inexplicable so that a universe comes about.

 

Science could do the same thing. It could posit a conceivable answer, but that wouldn't make it a good one.

 

I'm not a scientist/physicist, but I will give you an "answer" that is every bit as good/bad as the Christian one:

 

Why assume that there was originally nothing? How about assume that there is a 10-dimensional, steady-state, meta-universe. That means that this universe exists in 7 more dimensions than we can perceive (we only perceive 3). That it is a steady-state universe means that it always existed. That it is a meta-universe means that our universe is only a part of it.

 

Now, let's postulate that there are "strings" in this 10-dimensional, steady-state, meta-universe. These strings are part of this meta-universe, so they too have no beginning or end. The strings are in a constant state of vibration and tension.

 

About 15 billion years ago, a certain vibration caused the creation of our universe through some process that we cannot understand.

 

***

 

There, that is an answer. The difference is that I know, and will admit, that my answer is total crap. It's logically possible, but it is a terrible answer because it is just a bunch of assumptions.

 

This is exactly what the Christian answer is. It's a bunch of assumptions. IF an immaterial being could exist and IF that being could have thoughts without a brain and IF this being could use some mystical powers that we can't understand to create a universe, then there is an answer to the existence of the universe.

 

We can give any number of theories given the right "IF's." That doesn't mean the theories are good.

[godlessgrrl]

Hi there Fender. Welcome to the forum!

 

Heres a problem I can't get past though.

I'm assuming there was origonally nothing so in order for anything to be created it would first have to create it's self.

i was thinking that one atom of electricity could have formed and since there was nothing pushing against it it would expand until it blew up but that one atom would have to make it's self. Does that in some way make that atom a "god."?

 

I don't think anybody's really going to be able to give you a definitive answer to the initial existence of the universe. But then, I don't think that finding a definitive answer is totally necessary. What I think is more valuable is the process of trying to figure it out - the questioning, brainstorming, and exploration of possibilities. Which is what you're doing right now.

 

If I can help your thought process by throwing some more questions at you (heh, or maybe just make it all more confusing):

 

Big Bang theory is a model that can suggest the implication that there was "nothing" before the bang happened. But that's if you assume it's totally linear - i.e., that there really was "nothing" - no time, no space, no matter, no energy - and then the bang happened, and it's all proceeded in a line since.

 

But that's quite an assumption. Consider other possibilities: what if the last Big Bang was only one in a long, unbroken line of bangs and crunches (expansions and collapses)? Or what if the universe has always existed, and there was no beginning point?

 

If the universe did form from a single atom, or a single string, or a single... singularity, that singularity could count as "god", if one of your defining points about "god" is "the thing that created the universe." So I'd suggest that a lot of what you're thinking about and working out may be how you define god. I mean, if you think there was a god (or think it's possible, at least), what qualities would you actually assign to "god", and why?

 

Just asking all of these things, figuring out possibilities and exploring them, is the essence of philosophy. You probably won't find any concrete, definitive answers, but that's just fine. I seriously think it's the asking that matters more. Though there's a certain kind of comfort and security in coming up with actual answers, it's too easy to just turn off your brain and never think about it; and man, it's sad to see people do that, because then they get totally stuck and never exercise their intellect at all.

 

Anyhoo - I'm really glad to see you questioning things like this. Keep it up!

[Lycorth]

Heres a problem I can't get past though.

I'm assuming there was origonally nothing so in order for anything to be created it would first have to create it's self.

i was thinking that one atom of electricity could have formed and since there was nothing pushing against it it would expand until it blew up but that one atom would have to make it's self. Does that in some way make that atom a "god."?

 

The atom wouldn't be a god, since a god is understood to be a sentient being. It would make that atom the First Catalyst for all creation, but not a god.

 

The problem of First Cause is one I cannot get over, either. What created that which came together to form the universe? I used to attribute this to a god, both as a Xian and as a Deist, but I also realize I cannot be sure.

 

I am however still wondering about that, since perhaps one or more gods (outside the influence of physics and other natural laws, perhaps?) did in fact do something to get the creative ball of the universe rolling, but perished in the process, leaving no gods of any kind left alive. Perhaps gods did exist once, but they are all now an extinct race?

 

Either way, no all-powerful, all-loving, all-knowing god (per the Abrahamic model) can possibly exist to get that ball rolling, since those characteristics cannot exist and the world exist as it does. There is no answer right now, only speculation and theories, so don't expect to find an answer anytime soon.

 

Someday, perhaps, but not now...

[R. S. Martin]

I like the honesty with which people are responding to this question. I'm glad fender brought it up. I feel very new at this exC thing. Somehow, I had to find some kind of "answer" re the creation question. And about a year ago I came to the idea that whether or not god exists is not important. I was talking to a teenager online who seemed to be sort of looking to me as a person with enough wisdom to answer her questions. She was not raised in religion and seemed rather taken aback when I suggested it doesn't matter whether or not god exists. Thus, I wasn't sure if that was a good answer.

 

And about how the universe came into being--I don't have the brains for technical scientific understanding. I've struggled through many a post on various forums where people explained possible ways by which the universe came into existence and I simply could not comprehend what they were talking about. I don't even have a fundamental or basic education in science because the church I was born into and that was educating me considered it unnecessary. Beyond learning different trees and birds and the water cycle--I learned very little science. Most of what I might have learned did not stick. I went to public school from Grade 1 through Grade 5, and I'm sure science was taught but I don't remember science the way I remember the world history I learned at the same time.

 

Come to think of it, there is even a possibility that the school was run by fundamentalist Christians who happened to consitute the public of the time and place. From the horse and buggy Mennonite perspective they were all totally worldly people but of course they practiced things like saying the Lord's Prayer, singing hymns, etc. I remember one teacher suggested that each of us students could teach the class a song we learned at Sunday School. I explained that we don't have Sunday School in our church. She never took things further.

 

Back to the topic of this thread. Given that I simply can't comprehend the technical details of science's inquiry into the origin of the universe, I finally arrived at the conclusion that I don't have to know it in order to live a full and productive life. I'm comfortable and at peace with this answer, but it sure doesn't cut it when talking with Christians who are out to prove that God exists for sure. It occurs to me that there might be a certain level of arrogance around this attitude of "I know how everything happened. There is one little word: God."

 

I didn't know too much about fundamentalism when I started taking courses at the seminary. I thought I knew the Bible inside out and I thought I knew what it all meant. I was in for a major, major surprise. The Evangelical Lutheran Church of Canada sees God and church and world VERY differently from what I (and it seems most others on this forum) had been taught. What we were taught is a theology that is barely two hundred years old. Frankly, I am not sure if anyone alive today sees/understands God like the early Christians did. The scientific discoveries of the past two centuries have forged a new world-view and there is no way theology could continue without change.

 

Between 1850 and 1930 traditional Christian theology was confronted with MAJOR challenges. Charles Darwin published his evolution theory which made creation possible WITHOUT God. (As we are seeing in this thread, the minute details are still not known but the theory was put forth and Christians had to deal with it.) In addition, people who studied the Bible (higher criticism) discovered that by all logical analyses Moses probably did not write the Pentateuch (Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy).

 

That made some Christians feel like they were sitting on a very slippery slope. They felt that if they allowed themselves to think of creation as happening other than according to Genesis they would end up throwing out the entire Bible. They were also afraid that if they accepted the idea that Moses did not write the Pentateuch, they might as well throw out the entire Bible--if one thing is wrong what is there to keep people from disbelieving the entire book? That was their fear. They believed God was real and that God created the universe as reported in Genesis.

 

Things came to a head in 1925 at the Scopes Monkey Trial in Tennesee (I'm not sure of the state). A science teacher Mr. Scopes was brought to trial for teaching evolution. Initially he lost the case, but later he was cleared. Also about that time--about ten years earlier, a set of booklets called The Fundamentals: A Testimony to the Truth was written and distributed throughout the world. One or two rich oil men funded the project and scholars did the writing. I haven't read much of the actual booklets but I've read a lot about them. The Christians who hold to these fundamentals are today known as fundamentalists.

 

Here are a few notes from my study of fundamentalism:

 

The Fundamentals (George M. Marsden, 1980:224)

• Inerrancy of the Bible
  
• Virgin birth
  
• Miracles
  
• Substitutionary atonement of Christ for human sin
  
• Resurrection
  

Second coming is listed as one of the fundamentals in Marsden, 1987:4. This brings the number of the fundamentals to six. In 1980, he listed only five fundamentals.

 

Elaboration of inerrancy:

 

Modernists, influenced by higher criticism, emphasized the Bible's human origins; fundamentalists countered by affirming its inerrancy in history and science as well as in faith and doctrine (Marsden, 1987:4).

[NotBlinded]

Hello

I'm 13 and i had Christianity force-fed to me for well, 13 years and I decided i want to learn about the beliefs of atheism.

I was always curious about the big bang theorie and more importantly what caused the big bang.

Technically at the moment I'm not an ex christian since I'm still trying to learn more from different points of views and I'm not religous or non-religious.

Right now my views on god are that.. I have no idea about whether or not god exists but I do think that if there is a god that "god" would be a movement not a "guiding force in our lives".

Thanks, Rob

Hi Rob,

 

I wish I had your insight when I was 13. It wasn't until I was around 30 that I started to really question.

 

You sound very insightful and I'm glad you're here. Welcome.

[Unknowing1]

I don't have much to offer in the way of the scientific explanation of how the universe was created. Based on what I have learned I lean toward the scientific explanations and not what is in the Bible. But I have always wanted an answer to this question which is kind of in relation to this topic and those of you with a much higher level of knowledge than I may be able to provide some insight. The Bible says God created the universe but it doesn't say (unless I missed it) where God came from or how he came into being. So who created him, where did he come from? Please don't say peoples imaginations. I truly want to hear what you all have been told.

[exbeliever]

The Bible says God created the universe but it doesn't say (unless I missed it) where God came from or how he came into being. So who created him, where did he come from? Please don't say peoples imaginations. I truly want to hear what you all have been told.

 

The general answer is that God is the Uncaused Cause, the Primary Mover, the First Cause, etc.

 

The idea is that if you insist that everything have a cause, then there is an infinite regress. So, if there was something that created the universe, then something had to create the something that created the universe. But, then, something had to create the something that had to create, the something that created the universe ad infinitum.

 

It is argued that, for philosophical reasons, there cannot be an actual infinity (e.g. If you had a library with an infinite number of the novel War and Peace, how many pages of text would you have? An infinite number, right? But that would mean you would have the same number of pages as books.). Infinites are weird.

 

There is debate about the impossibility of actual infinites, but whatever the case, it is not objectionable to posit an Uncaused Cause of the universe whether it is natural or supernatural--e.g. one could say that energy was an Uncaused Cause (though, that seems unlikely as far as our laws of physics are concerned).

 

God as an Uncaused Cause is not just a Christian thing. You can find the same idea in the ancient Greek philosophers.

 

I don't see this as a real problem for theists. It was only a problem in the way that they used to formulate cosmological arguments (i.e. they would say that everything complex had to have a cause). The old version was criticized by Hume and others by asking the very question you asked, "If everything complex has to have a cause, what is God's cause?" (obviously, I'm simplifying). Newer versions of the argument have been corrected.

[Ouroboros]

An actual infinite can't exist, but an infinite of actuals can. (the infinite number serie is not a number, but infinite numer series consists of numbers)

 

My problem with first cause is that free-will is supposedly un-caused, but the first cause argument requires a supposedly contingent universe , not even free-will can be un-caused. To have a free-will be consistenly caused would undo free-will and make it deterministic.

 

-edit-

 

And here's another problem with first cause. God is considered to be the identity of the actual infinite, but the argument say that absolute infinites can't exist.

[R. S. Martin]

I don't have much to offer in the way of the scientific explanation of how the universe was created. Based on what I have learned I lean toward the scientific explanations and not what is in the Bible. But I have always wanted an answer to this question which is kind of in relation to this topic and those of you with a much higher level of knowledge than I may be able to provide some insight. The Bible says God created the universe but it doesn't say (unless I missed it) where God came from or how he came into being. So who created him, where did he come from? Please don't say peoples imaginations. I truly want to hear what you all have been told.

 

My mother said God always was. From eternity to eternity. God had no beginning. And no end.

 

Incomprehensible. How can eternity not have a beginning or end?

 

Finally I clued in to how I saw and understood time and objects as a very young child--maybe about age three. Back then, it was incomprehensible when Mom talked about before she was married, or even further "out there" when she talked about when she was a child. It went clean over my head. Mom had always been. She had always been an adult.

 

Similarly incomprehensible was the idea that I would not always be a little child. Then there was also the thing about staying away from the creek that ran at the bottom of the rise on which our house stood. Mom warned very strictly that we (me and my sisters who were even smaller) should NEVER go anywhere near the creek. If we did, we might drown "and then we would not have you anymore."

 

That set my little brain a-whirring. Given that Mom and Dad had always existed and would always exist, it just might be the case that they had a whole batch of kids before us but these kids went down to the creek and got drowned. Yes, that made a great deal of sense. It just might be the case.

 

I never tried talking to mom about this because, well, there were things one didn't talk about....

 

So there you have a glimpse into the mind of a very young child. Things just are. This becomes the foundation on which is built everything else one learns throughout life. If we see God from the perspective that I as a very young child saw my parents, it makes sense to say that God has always been and will always be. Jesus said "except ye become as little children ye shall in no wise enter into the kingdom of heaven."

 

Well, being innocent as a child, trusting and testing each new case and situation of life as it arrives, has gotten me places I could never have dreamt of. People say I appear naive. I think it is this attitude that does it. I resolved when I was about 12-14 that I would never grow up until "it happened to me." I would not trade in the "childlike" attitude for the "adult" attitude. I assumed it was something that would just happen all on its own. I did not think I wanted to be "like grown-ups" until I "had to" because I assumed it inevitably happened to everybody as a matter of course. It hasn't happened yet. I think this is the most relaxing and carefree way to live while also being very responsible. Being liberated from "yesterday" and "tomorrow" one is free to use all available energy to bear on "today."

 

Being responsible, for me, means to be sure the larger situation is free from danger, or if this is not possible, to have a plan for worst case scenarios. It is also important to have a good handle on what kind of person you want to be and let that guide moment to moment decisions and judgments. In this way, one is a parent to oneself and one is free to "just be" as a little child. I think this is why, when there is a problem in my life I have a problem and it won't go away by making a joke of it. It needs to be dealt with. Sometimes simply understanding all aspects of the problem solve the isssue. But unless and until such insight occurs and practical changes are made to accommodate the new situation, I have a problem.

 

Back to the topic of this thread. Does God exist? Yes, inside that frame of mind there is room for God to exist and to have always existed and to exist forevermore. There is also room in that mindset for the universe always to have existed. Not all humans are as obsessed as Western society regarding the origins of the universe. Since the Western mindset is saturated with the legacy of medieval European Christianity, proving/disproving the existence of god has become an obsession. Since we cannot prove/disprove the existence of an invisible and intangible being called god, we must do the next best thing. Evidence for the origins of all that exists will surely answer the question once and for all.

 

So far as I can figure out, it is in response to the cruelties inflicted by the church on scientists like Galilio (sp?) that astronomy and space research has been fueled these past several centuries. Scientists absolutely have to prove to the Church that Galilio was right. And the Church absolutely has to prove to itself and science that it has the last word and absolute authority for time and eternity. I think this is the crux of the matter and that in North America, and esp. in the USA, all of us are caught up in the battle in some way or another.

[Vigile]

Hello

I'm 13 and i had Christianity force-fed to me for well, 13 years and I decided i want to learn about the beliefs of atheism.

I was always curious about the big bang theorie and more importantly what caused the big bang.

Technically at the moment I'm not an ex christian since I'm still trying to learn more from different points of views and I'm not religous or non-religious.

Right now my views on god are that.. I have no idea about whether or not god exists but I do think that if there is a god that "god" would be a movement not a "guiding force in our lives".

Thanks, Rob

 

What a mature 13 yo you are. Wish I had matured as early as you appear to have done. I hope that doesn't sound condescending. I'm genuinely impressed.

 

I'm sure you'll get some good responses here so I won't add my .02 right now. Welcome to the forum.

[Vixentrox]

Welcome to the forums. Keep right on questioning. A questioning mind is a thinking mind.

[Guest Unholy Ghost]

Fender, I've been skimming over all the replies to your question and most of them seem to hit the nail on the head. At the risk of being repetitive, I'd just like to add my thoughts on the Big Bang.

 

The universe is expanding, and cosmologists can measure the speed and the distance of galaxies -- the ones furthest out are travelling the fastest. If you 'wind back the film' as it were, you get to a single point in space and time. So all the matter of the universe was squeezed into a single point (singularity.)

 

The singularity probably did not exist as matter, but energy. Matter and energy are interchangeable, as Einstein proved. So when this energy exploded, a lot of it 'cooled down' and formed matter.

 

The occurence of the Big Bang is currently the extent of scientific knowledge. That doesn't mean we won't find out what caused it or what went before it. Of course we will, easily within your lifetime. Scientific understanding has always progressed; from the discovery that the Earth goes round the sun, to the discovery of our place in the galaxy, to an understanding of the size and age of the universe. At every stage the idea of 'God' has always filled the void beyond the extent of our knowledge. The more knowledgeable we get, the further back the idea of God gets pushed.