I Hate Urgent Care

[Purple]

Okay, my 19 year old is not insured, our insurance dropped her at 18, and her current employer offers none, so, no insurance. She got sick, her fever would not go down, and really it looked like strep. So, I drive her to Urgent Care, and of course she doesn't want to be there alone. Sooooooooooo 4 and a half hours later we find out she has an ear infection.

 

The thing is for that 4 hours in the waiting room we were surround by sick people, and sick kids. Sick kids being expected to sit still for 4 hours doesn't work BTW. Then the examination room doesn't look clean! I swear I feel like I was getting an STD just standing in that room! The nurse took vitals before the doc saw her, which is normal, but the nurse did something wrong taking my daughters blood pressure, she says "Hmmm that's kind of high?" I say oh, what is it, she says 180 over 120..... WHAT!!!???? That's like heart attack blood pressure, my daughers 19! The nurse barely reacts, and we wait more. The doc comes in, and checks her over, says well her temp isn't very high (99f) says she has an ear infection but it doesn't look too bad. Uh huh k, um BLOOD PRESSURE!!???

Doc: "Oh huh thats very high for 19"

Me (in my head): yeah duh

The doc takes her blood pressure again and mumbles, in an accent that is barely comprehendable when shes not mumbling, that the nurse probably used the wrong cup. When the doc is done she smiles and says "That's better" Better?? better how, HELLO, I ask, it's lower?, and she looks up, like shes surprised I'm there, "oh yes its just 120", 120??? 120 over what, is that the upper lower um um, she must have seen my face I dunno, and says the upper was 120 now, the lower 79. phew okay. So my 19 year old baby is going to be ok and all, but still I hate Urgent Care! Oh did I mention, the doctor was using hand sanitizing gel, because there was no soap??

[garrisonjj]

Okay, my 19 year old is not insured, our insurance dropped her at 18, and her current employer offers none, so, no insurance. She got sick, her fever would not go down, and really it looked like strep. So, I drive her to Urgent Care, and of course she doesn't want to be there alone. Sooooooooooo 4 and a half hours later we find out she has an ear infection.

 

 

First, I am sorry for your daughter's illness and hope she is on the road to recovery. We have a small,local er room here that typically has 3 to 4 hour waits. Its much more sensible to drive the 60 miles from here to a major center where everything is done more professionally. Live and learn, I went through many similar situations before I learned to sacrifice to get to a better place. Best Wishes!

[neverclear5]

And the wonderful bush plan is to spend 700 billion on the military and remove about 30 each from medicare and medicaid. Good idea boooss

[Purple]

Yeah, the next "major center" from here wold be LA, um yeah LA County general? Ummmmmmmmmmmm no thanks BTDT never ever again. I have stories. We can blame the wait on Bush, we can blame being understaffed, but you know what, I just can't blame him, or anyone for there not being soap!

[D Laurier]

We have the largest and most modern hospital in the three countys area.

Since the funding cuts under Harris though, service is almost non existant.

In the new world order, you do NOT want to get sick.

[Biggles7268]

my now deceased neighbor died in the E.R. waiting room at my local hospital. the pricks knew he had serious heart problems and they still kept him sitting in the waiting room.

 

 

 

 

Glad your daughter's going to be ok, ear infections suck though.

[The Sage Nabooru]

Yeah, the next "major center" from here wold be LA, um yeah LA County general? Ummmmmmmmmmmm no thanks BTDT never ever again. I have stories. We can blame the wait on Bush, we can blame being understaffed, but you know what, I just can't blame him, or anyone for there not being soap!

 

LOL......I was never quite able to understand America's fascination with LA. Bad air, bad traffic, bad crime, bad health care, bad neighborhoods, beat-your-ass cost of living, and let's face it, you never really hear accolades about LA's educational system or its art or history museums and other cultural offerings (if it even has any). No offense if you chose to move out there but I just don't get the hype.

 

The American health system is so terribly, terribly shit-infested. Sure, I know of several absolutely great hospitals in and around St. Louis, but I also know about Jefferson Memorial Hospital (the ancient crumbling dump that's associated with the nearby Jefferson Barracks and its military cemetary), where you have to be pretty careful about not stopping on somebody's feces. I know people in Britain and elsewhere complain about how long they have to wait to get treated for certain things and how "shoddy" their healthcare is, but at least you don't have to fork out dough to keep yourself alive. Like everything else in America, the healthcare industry is, well, an industry, and if they're not going to turn a profit off of you, then saving your life really isn't any of their business. Literally.

[xild]

I will never go to the ER again in this town; (sorry about your friend Biggles), I live on the border. My BF slipped on some trash in Target, fell and was knocked unconscious for over ten minutes, hitting his head on the hard floor. It took ten minutes for me to get someone there to call the ambulance. They were all standing around just gawking at him, and me.

 

The border hospital where he was taken by ambulance paralyzed him, and put him on life support because when he started coming to he was thrashing about, sort of fighting...Next time I saw him he was intubated with tears running down his face, practically uncsonscious. He was like this for three days! I was beyond belief, it couldn't be happening, etc., I couldn't get any answers.

 

He was in the hospital, for a slip and fall head injury, for over a month, recovering from the MRSA virus, which he got mainlined through his IV while in the Intensive Care Unit. They didn't bother to change his IV for over three days and it was bloody underneath the clear bandage. His hospital room was filthy. I had to clean it myself. He also got phlebitis from every IV they put into his body. So he had several cases of something that happens to a vein, very bad cases of it each time--they had to perform minor surgery on his arms--it was awful watching him go through that. He is a strong healthy physical specimen otherwise. It's not like he was sicky when he went in there--otherwise I am quite sure he would've died in that hospital.

 

I often hate sitting in waiting rooms. They are cramped and everyone sneezing and coughing into their hands then goes and touches all the toys and books in there. It's vile.

 

I agree about the soap and water. Next time you're in paying your bill plop down a vile of dollar store hand soap. Lack of hand washing is exactly how disease gets spread, you'd think they'd know that.

[Purple]

LOL......I was never quite able to understand America's fascination with LA. Bad air, bad traffic, bad crime, bad health care, bad neighborhoods, beat-your-ass cost of living, and let's face it, you never really hear accolades about LA's educational system or its art or history museums and other cultural offerings (if it even has any). No offense if you chose to move out there but I just don't get the hype.

 

Oh I didn't choose to go anywhere near LA, I was born in the San Gabriel Valley, an LA suburb area. Smog is bad in LA? HA! the San Gabriel Valley collects LA's smog, and it's moutains keep it and hug it and looooooooooooove it. LA is an ugly grey city, and I don't get the hype either. Although The Hunington Library is kind of cool, it's not really in LA though. Everything people outside of California think is cool about LA is either a bold face lie, or is actaully in Orange County. Disneyland... orange county (Anahiem) clean beaches that you actaully wanna go to... Orange county. Eh Then again Orange county has a special kind of snob that just makes you wanna ring some skinny blonde necks. Oh oh oh and it has Rick Warren's Church Hurray!

 

Anyway, the kiddo seems to be feeling better, she got the day off and slept until 11:30, then we watched Clerks 2. Sick, but funny funny movie, not one I'd watch with the other kids though.

[Purple]

my now deceased neighbor died in the E.R. waiting room at my local hospital. the pricks knew he had serious heart problems and they still kept him sitting in the waiting room.

 

 

 

 

Glad your daughter's going to be ok, ear infections suck though.

 

I am so sorry Biggles, and if she had had a real heart problem .... well... they didn't exactly act concerned. Ear infections do suck, but dang the child seems to heal quickly.

[♦ nivek ♦]

Lady Purple..

 

Damnnit.. Ya'd figure with the resources and dinero this Nation of ours *has* and the market abilities and audience that medidine owns, we'd have outlets for kids like yours to be treated at costs that can be paid for without having to sell our hides to do so.

 

Glad things turned out hald OK *so far*.. Damnnit, incidents as this make me cringe every time I hear of them..

 

k

[The Sage Nabooru]

Disneyland...

 

Whoa there, I've been to Disney World and my parents could both be described as head-on Disney freaks, but we've not heard pretty things about Disneyland. Basically, the general image we get from Land's visitors is that "If you don't mind the peeling paint, questionable staff and strip club outside the entrance, you'll love it!"

 

I've heard from music industry associates "If you really wanna make it, you gotta move to LA"......but there's plenty out-of-LAers who've made it big, seriously I think I have a better chance here, where the population density of Hopefuls and Hopelesses is a little less dense. I think there's a huge culture that thinks that LA is the place to be because so many rich and famous supposedly live there, but seriously, how many aren't actually in Santa Monica or some other area close-by? Plus for every millionaire's mansion and thousand-dollar boutique shop, there's about eight thousand absolutely pitiful shitholes and pawn sharks specializing in stolen jewelry in front, cocaine in back.

 

Sorry, I've gone out on a rant there.......I do hear California has the most megachurches of any other state. There's two of them just within fifteen minutes of where I live, so I can imagine what living next to Rick Warren must be like. *shudders*

[Kurari]

Uuuuuugh, I totally sympathise with you and your daughter. I got an ambulance ride to the ER on Jan. 10th because this stupid cold I had started attacking my inner ears, and I had vertigo so bad I couldn't hardly walk or stand up.

 

So I get my ride to the ER, sit in a bed for about three hours, and while I did get good service, it wasn't really anything major they needed to do. They give me over the counter medication. Then they kick me out and tell me to go home and stay home until I'm better (I didn't get any rest that weekend due to hell freezing over then the Devil playing hockey with my life as the puck, ha ha)

 

Of course, all this happened before my insurance kicked in from my new job.

 

So, I get better, now the bills are pouring in.

 

I'm looking over the first bill, which is over $2,000. Most of the itemization makes sense to me except this:

 

ER Fee = $1,141

 

WTF?! I get charged over a thousand dollars for sitting in a bed for a few hours? Had I known that they could have just stuck me in a chair.

 

And more bills are coming in. Fortunately, my state has charity laws. Ah ha ha ha ha. What a joke. Liberal window dressing with Neo-Con functionality. I'm still waiting for my claim to go through and trying to explain to these people I DON'T HAVE three pay stubs to send them because I haven't had my job long enough to get that many yet.

 

I'm feeling the laser from the eye of a giant phallus aiming for my ass anytime now. I hope you fare better than I do from the sticker shock.

[pandora]

Oh, I feel your pain!!

 

Recently, I fell down the stairs and injured my foot pretty badly. Not knowing if I had broken it or not, the Promptcare people decided to save me a hundred bucks and told me to go to the ER where they could set it if it was broken. That was big mistake. The Promptcare is a small place who's sole purpose is to treat minor ailments and such. I haven't had insurance for a long time, and I've been going to the same one for a couple years now. They have always treated me well. At the ER's version of a prompt care, no one even examined my foot or asked me how it felt, they looked at the X-ray, said it wasn't broken, wrote a script, and that was it. The doc didn't even look me in the eye. I was so upset. I sure hope I never get really ill... I won't trust that hospital again.

[Biggles7268]

I will never go to the ER again in this town; (sorry about your friend Biggles), I live on the border. My BF slipped on some trash in Target, fell and was knocked unconscious for over ten minutes, hitting his head on the hard floor. It took ten minutes for me to get someone there to call the ambulance. They were all standing around just gawking at him, and me.

 

The border hospital where he was taken by ambulance paralyzed him, and put him on life support because when he started coming to he was thrashing about, sort of fighting...Next time I saw him he was intubated with tears running down his face, practically uncsonscious. He was like this for three days! I was beyond belief, it couldn't be happening, etc., I couldn't get any answers.

 

He was in the hospital, for a slip and fall head injury, for over a month, recovering from the MRSA virus, which he got mainlined through his IV while in the Intensive Care Unit. They didn't bother to change his IV for over three days and it was bloody underneath the clear bandage. His hospital room was filthy. I had to clean it myself. He also got phlebitis from every IV they put into his body. So he had several cases of something that happens to a vein, very bad cases of it each time--they had to perform minor surgery on his arms--it was awful watching him go through that. He is a strong healthy physical specimen otherwise. It's not like he was sicky when he went in there--otherwise I am quite sure he would've died in that hospital.

 

I often hate sitting in waiting rooms. They are cramped and everyone sneezing and coughing into their hands then goes and touches all the toys and books in there. It's vile.

 

I agree about the soap and water. Next time you're in paying your bill plop down a vile of dollar store hand soap. Lack of hand washing is exactly how disease gets spread, you'd think they'd know that.

 

holy shit, that's horrid. that sounds like a major lawsuit right there.

[Unknowing1]

I've had good experiences and bad experiences.

 

Lately some of the hospitals in our area are trying to reduce the wait. One group of hospitals in the area have gotten the wait time to actually see a doctor down to about 30 minutes. I've had to take my son to the ER twice within the past year due to soccer injuries. Both times we waited less than an hour for them to begin treatment. First trip for a broken wrist took 1 1/2 hours. Second visit for ligament/sprain injury to the leg took about 2 hours. The second visit took longer because they had a critically ill patient that had come in and they were trying to save their life. The staff came in and told us that shortly afer we arrived. Knowing that I would have waited forever, but unfortunately the person didn't make it. My experience with that particular hospital ER hasn't been without problems though. On the first visit the ER doc put the wrong splint on my son's wrist. Had he moved his wrist the wrong way further damage could have occured that might have left him with limited mobility in his hand. Luckily we got in to see the Ortho the next day and he put him in a soft cast that would prevent movement of the affected bone.

 

My worst visit ever was the time I had taken my mother to the ER at a different hospital because she thought she was having a heart attack (refused to go via ambulance) we waited in the ER waiting room for 2 hours. Another lady was there as well who had suffered a stroke. They were the only two in the waiting room the whole two hours. When I inquired how much longer it would be I was told that they had people coming in by ambulance and they took precedence. I told the receptionist to give me the phone so I could call 911 and have the EMT's pick them up, drive them around the block and bring them back. Both my mom and the other lady were seen almost immediately after I said that. My mom ended up being admitted, while she hadn't had a heart attack, she was having heart problems.

 

Sticker shock I can believe, thankfully I have fairly good health insurance (I'm one of the lucky ones). The ambulance ride when my son hurt his leg was $570.00 for a 20 minute trip by the local government's fire dept. All they gave him was laughing gas to help take his mind off the pain and they mobilized his leg. The ER bill alone was over $1500.00, not to mention the doctors bill of over $200.00 and of course the sports meds doctors bill was close to $300.00. I recently had steriod injections in two herniated disc's. The first treatment for two disks was $1752.00, the second treatment for two disc's $1500.00. I refused the third treatment as they didn't work. I've gone to the surgeon and his bill for just meeting with me to discuss my options was $250.00, I saw him all of 30 minutes. If I elect to have surgery I fully expect the total to be over $10,000.00. I only pay a $200 deductable plus 20% for anything other than the doctors charges and only have a $35 co-pay for the doctors charges. If I had to pay all of those charges out of pocket without health insurance I don't know what I would do.

[Purple]

Disneyland...

 

Whoa there, I've been to Disney World and my parents could both be described as head-on Disney freaks, but we've not heard pretty things about Disneyland. Basically, the general image we get from Land's visitors is that "If you don't mind the peeling paint, questionable staff and strip club outside the entrance, you'll love it!"

 

I've heard from music industry associates "If you really wanna make it, you gotta move to LA"......but there's plenty out-of-LAers who've made it big, seriously I think I have a better chance here, where the population density of Hopefuls and Hopelesses is a little less dense. I think there's a huge culture that thinks that LA is the place to be because so many rich and famous supposedly live there, but seriously, how many aren't actually in Santa Monica or some other area close-by? Plus for every millionaire's mansion and thousand-dollar boutique shop, there's about eight thousand absolutely pitiful shitholes and pawn sharks specializing in stolen jewelry in front, cocaine in back.

 

Sorry, I've gone out on a rant there.......I do hear California has the most megachurches of any other state. There's two of them just within fifteen minutes of where I live, so I can imagine what living next to Rick Warren must be like. *shudders*

 

 

I like Disneyland, but I've never seen a strip club near it. :S It has its problems like anyplace, but it's a nostalgic thing for me. We made a yearly trip when I was a kid, and myself and my friends when I was a teen, and young adult used to go at night on group dates. :: shrug :: We recently went to Disneyland at xmas time. My husbands boss (Who happens to also be my brother) had the office party there, and gave everyone 2 tickets to the park. My eldest, the one who was sick, bought tickets for my other 2 kids as a xmas present to them and we all went. We had not been in 8 years, we had a good time, it had rained, and was suppossed to be raining, but it cleared that day, so it was pretty cool. If you want to see pics go here...

Disneyland Day

 

 

I'm not in the music industry, or anything like that, so I wouldn't know. Honestly when it comes to mega mansions and shitholes I'd say so cal is like anywhere really, and LA like most major cities has both. I have been in actaul LA countless times in my life, I've shopped Rodeo Dr, I have never once seen a real star. Once on Rodeo I saw a girl that was on a soap opera, if that counts, but eh, she never went anywhere other than that as an actress, and I coouldn't even tell you her name now.

 

Okay mega churches, I do not live in the OC, I'm not sure I can afford to breath there. Plus, we are pretty well convinced they only allow in a certain number of brunettes. I live in Riverslime, Valley of the Dirt People, it's a lovely city, I heard brown is in fashion right now... anyway. We do have our mega church though, that I do ... literally live in the shadow of, Harvest. Run by Pastor/author Greg Laurie. We call them Harvestines, and I swear Sunday mornings I refuse to go anywhere near it, because they all drive like rude SOBs. "Oh you are not going to get in front of me!" Look harvestine freak I don't want your stupid parking place, I'm not going to your church I just want to get over so I can turn right! AGRGH! assholes!

 

K did I just hyjax my own post?

[Casey]

Not so long ago I took a mate of mine to the local hospital for treatment. Our local hospital is very good cleanliness wise and they have a spacious waiting area. They need it because you wait all right. I, knowing this, took with me a rather large book on the history of the WW2 Kokoda Track battles and Australia's involvement in these. The book is 490 pages long; I had got to page 122 by the time my mate was seen to. I can remember that because facing page 122 is the book's first set of pics.

 

This of course was in Australia, in a town in South East Queensland to be exact. We are told, with some truth, that our State's health care system is falling apart; but it seems we have a long way to go before it falls to the standard obtaining in some places in the US. From the descriptions I have read here, I'd have thought a front-line RAP (even on Kokoda where the conditions were really bad), would have been cleaner than those depicted.

Casey

[The Sage Nabooru]

ER Fee = $1,141

 

WTF?! I get charged over a thousand dollars for sitting in a bed for a few hours? Had I known that they could have just stuck me in a chair.

 

The local fire department wants $600 for driving me to the ER when I had a nosebleed.

 

I swear to God, you European people, you don't know how easy you got it. I mean, obviously the wait and quality is just as much as an issue here as it is there, and then they totally rape you on the charges here. It's downright rediculous. They do it because they know they can. They know you're probably willing to do anything to stay alive, so $4000 for an X-ray (that's an honest estimate) is an easy trap for us to fall into.

 

Seriously, it's so fucking disgusting, healthcare - that is, care towards keeping people healthy and alive - is such a fucking business out here, most people can't afford it. That means, if you have health problems AND a job that doesn't offer insurance, sorry, you're screwed. People die here because they can't afford treatment and $600 rides to the hospital. And the prices are so fucking unbelievable, as you can see. If you need stitches expect at least a bill of several hundred dollars for some fucking needles and thread.

 

When Americans get into car accidents, it's a nightmare that cannot be fathomed by most. Not only are you unable to go to work the pay the downright cruel medical bills, the hospital wants their money NOW and are not afraid to involve a lawyer to get their hardly-earned thousands. I've heard of car accidents costing upwards of $20,000. It's why doctors in America are so fucking rich. The one my mother used to work for forked in a neat million a year.

 

If you ask me, I agree with what was said in the book What God Wants: Having the technology to offer excellent life-saving healthcare while making it available only to the few and rich, is a form of violence.

[Kurari]

The local fire department wants $600 for driving me to the ER when I had a nosebleed.

 

That's what they have charged my mother for her ride, and I haven't gotten my bill yet, but I'm pretty sure mine will be the same, for a five minute ride up the street.

 

Not only are you unable to go to work the pay the downright cruel medical bills, the hospital wants their money NOW and are not afraid to involve a lawyer to get their hardly-earned thousands.

 

Oh, no kidding. And it seems like every time I try to do a payment plan and they say sure, I get sent to collections for not paying in full.

 

The insurance companys have WAY too much power, and they are the ones that really control the health care system. I used to work for a major insurance company and all the plans they even offered their employees were a complete rip off. HSA's? You can only afford them if you are rich. HMO's? Better hope all you need is a physical because their cap is damned low. I got screwed painfully when it turned out my kidneys were only functioning at 60% and had to go through a battery of tests to find out why...I was over my limit by the third visit. And they never did find out what was wrong with me, I had to stop going because I couldn't afford to keep paying the difference, even with insurance!

 

Thankfully for me, I didn't go into renal failure. But this is something now that I have insurance again for my doctor to look into...and I've ended up with a better insurance plan this time at my new job, but I'm still going to have to budget like crazy this year for the "body work" I need done.

[neverclear5]

It's a dirty word but...socialised healthcare people.

[The Sage Nabooru]

It's a dirty word but...socialised healthcare people.

 

But......but that's just insane! That means you're allowing health care to drug addicts, alcoholics, poor folks, coloreds, Muslims, single mothers, immigrants, foreigners, liberals, and all kinds of riff-raff! Why should WE fork over our tax dollars to keep people we couldn't care less about alive?! That's rediculous!

[Former Follier]

It's a dirty word but...socialised healthcare people.

 

But......but that's just insane! That means you're allowing health care to drug addicts, alcoholics, poor folks, coloreds, Muslims, single mothers, immigrants, foreigners, liberals, and all kinds of riff-raff! Why should WE fork over our tax dollars to keep people we couldn't care less about alive?! That's rediculous!

I'd much rather supply free healthcare to American bums with my tax dollars than spread fucking Damn-ocracy to Middle Eastern bums. In a perfect world, where would your tax money go? Debating taxes is pointless, you pay 'em or you end up in the klink. Where would you put your money if you had the choice? I'd keep it in the borders, that's for damn sure.

 

By the way, this is coming from a veteran of Operation Iraqi Freedom I & II. I'm not spreading anti-American sentiment. . . it's actually pro-American.

 

People don't understand that our government doesn't work for us. . . they are supposed to but they don't. They work for Big Business who in turn works for the government who then takes on military operations to benefit Big Business to further benifit scheissty politicians. Talk about a vicious cycle.

[The Sage Nabooru]

Well I was being sarcastic....but I think you knew that.

 

But that's the argument people usually make against universal health care. It's "not fair" to keep everyone healthy. Why SHOULDN'T health care be limited to the priviledged few? they ask. Aren't they the only ones deserving of it?

[godlessgrrl]

Hm, a friend of mine and I just recently had a discussion about a book or article she was reading, written by a guy who went to the Republican national convention a few years back and heard Dan Quayle object to socialized health care. Among the things Quayle said when talking about limiting tax cuts for the wealthiest people in order to help fund universal health care was a quote along the lines of "Why should the best people be punished?"

 

At that point the guy realized something. Which is that there exists in the current Republican ideal an ingrained belief that anybody who has a lot of wealth is better than everybody else, because of the assumption that they've done something to "earn" their wealth - struggled out of poverty, built an empire from the ground up, or some other sort of 19th-century self-made American kind of thing. In the minds of people like Dan Quayle, wealthy people really are the "best" people, and everybody else can go to hell.

 

The implication, of course, is that anybody who's poor is somehow deserving of being poor, and should be punished for being poor (or shouldn't be given any "rewards" for their poverty, at best). So things like universal health care or government assistance (Medicare, welfare, disability or veteran's benefits, etc.) are not something that Republicans feel anybody should have, since obviously they're the only people who have worked hard to get where they are in life and thus are they only people who deserve any financial rewards for their efforts.

 

None of this takes into account, of course, wealthy folks who might have inherited their money rather than actually working for it, or the actual realities of the day-to-day needs of people who do indeed struggle to meet the American dream in a world where it really isn't possible for everybody to be a billionaire. But if his assessment is true, it suggests that underlying the desire for lower taxes and smaller government is a moral judgment that wealth is the indicator of a human being's value.

 

And, if this is the case, why, then, would the wealthiest people in the nation - who largely control government and big business - budge an inch more than they had to, when it comes to things like health insurance for the nation's most vulnerable people? Or hell, for anybody who makes less than a 6-figure income?

 

Sometimes I get this feeling that things are tipping back to the way they were in the late 19th century, with corporations in control of everything, and few (if any) legal safeguards preventing businesses from exploiting their employees in whatever ways they possibly could, in the interest of making as much money as humanly possible.

 

Arrgh, I totally need to find the source my friend was talking about, because I really hate talking secondhand about anything like this. I'll see if I can't dig up the name of the guy who was there, and the book or article she got the info from, so it doesn't have this whole kind of urban legend flavor about it, and so I can read the whole thing myself too. If/when I find it I'll post a link or something.

 

Anyway. Ramble over.