Ouroboros Posted February 7, 2007 Share Posted February 7, 2007 I have a hard time understanding why it is so important to most Christians (not all) that we (or all non-believers) have to believe in God, and that somehow believing in God will please God so much that he will reward us to be sent to Heaven instead of Hell. My problem is, why does God need anyone to believe in him? Why is it so important to him/her that these tiny creatures believe that he/she exists? And the same problem goes for Jesus. Why does God require "faith" or "belief" to be saved? Why isn't my life only judged by my actions, instead of what I happens to believe? Explain this "faith" or "belief" energy or power that is so important to God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taphophilia Posted February 7, 2007 Share Posted February 7, 2007 Yes, I've thought about this too. Belief is a funtion of our brain, so why is it so important to god that a certain part of the brain functions the way he wants it too. Isn't this like condemning a small child whose spincter muscle doewn't work the way we would like, to hell for all eternity because they are not potty trained? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted February 7, 2007 Author Share Posted February 7, 2007 The other day I was thinking how similar the concept God's need of belief is to one of these Christmas movies (Elf) where Santa Clause's sled is powered by "Christmas spirit" and that so few believe in Santa Clause so they have to run the sled on rockets instead. Or the movie where so few believe in Santa Clause that the whole Christmas is threatened. Is it the same case with God? If too few believe in him, he'll go up in smoke? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taphophilia Posted February 7, 2007 Share Posted February 7, 2007 At my last job, the driver was telling me what you believe in this life determines where you go when you die. He was about 70 years old and two of his children had died from cancer. He was comforted that they were in heaven with Jesus and that one day he would see them again, so I didn't want to say anything to him, but the whole belief thing started me thinking about it. I think that, yes, god is powered by belief in him. I think of god and Jesus as literary characters who have come to life in the imaginations of the people who believe in them. Anything is possible wtih God and Jesus because anything is possible in the imagination. So, don't you think Christians mix imagination with reality and have a difficult time understanding the difference between them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mythra Posted February 7, 2007 Share Posted February 7, 2007 It's because God is the ultimate THOUGHT NAZI Auschwitz has nothing on hell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amanda Posted February 7, 2007 Share Posted February 7, 2007 I have a hard time understanding why it is so important to most Christians (not all) that we (or all non-believers) have to believe in God, and that somehow believing in God will please God so much that he will reward us to be sent to Heaven instead of Hell. My problem is, why does God need anyone to believe in him? Why is it so important to him/her that these tiny creatures believe that he/she exists? And the same problem goes for Jesus. Why does God require "faith" or "belief" to be saved? Why isn't my life only judged by my actions, instead of what I happens to believe? Explain this "faith" or "belief" energy or power that is so important to God. HanSolo, don't you think it has to do with how one defines God? If God is that 'higher' calling within us, a calling to an internal locus of control, respect, and giving reverence to all things... do you think it best if we believe in that? The character of Jesus gave a model of living this life here on earth. If we are to live by a higher calling, which we come to believe exists, and find this to be quite beneficial for self and others through testing it, till we have conviction, what is wrong with that faith? If we have this faith in what gives a boost to our emotional well being, gives us self empowerment to overcome our hurdles in life... doesn't that save us? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted February 7, 2007 Author Share Posted February 7, 2007 So, don't you think Christians mix imagination with reality and have a difficult time understanding the difference between them? I think that this whole idea of "belief is required" is basically the idea of belief in a magical crystal that will help them avoid some fictious future danger. Basically, it's some magical token. And I also think this whole "belief" idea creates people that extremely guillable and easily manipulated by people who claim to have better "connection" to the same entity they claim to believe in. I'm just trying to wrap my head around the understanding of what "belief" really does to the "ultimate salvation". Why is "belief" at all required by a deity? A lot of the Christian message is "believe in Jesus and you'll be saved", and it is just weird. I used to be one of them, and I have lost understanding why "belief" got this magical power to make God giving a person an eternal life in Heaven. It makes more sense if "good actions" would lead to the eternal life, but why is "belief" the thing now? It's almost like a magic wand or the crystals some people hang in their cars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amanda Posted February 7, 2007 Share Posted February 7, 2007 So, don't you think Christians mix imagination with reality and have a difficult time understanding the difference between them? <snip>I think that this whole idea of "belief is required" is basically the idea of belief in a magical crystal that will help them avoid some fictious future danger. Basically, it's some magical token. And I also think this whole "belief" idea creates people that extremely guillable and easily manipulated by people who claim to have better "connection" to the same entity they claim to believe in. HanSolo and Taphophilia... I can see what Taphophilia said could be true! It seems to me, when discussing some of these beliefs with people who have them... it's about being raised as the cultural norm, generational compounding of suggestions, and ALL the international holidays associated with it. How can virtually the whole western world be wrong for so long? I thought I had critical thinking concerning these Bible teachings, when I came to this site. I was surprised what I had accepted unchallenged, considered Noah's Ark, thought Jesus surely existed, and that God magically animated life. Researching to prove many on here wrong... I was finding out they were right! :ohmy: HanSolo and Mythra, amongst others, clearly shook the foundations which I had accepted. It was shocking to understand the implications of what I had newly learned! It caused internal tremors, if YKWIM. IMO, if someone BELIEVES the literal hell, fear of that belief will cause them to wrestle moreso with these truths because they have been convincingly worned the devil will try to trick them! They can't go there! Fear! Further they want to save all us too! For me it has been a slow process in keeping what I have found beneficial, coming to understand what is clearly not true and even what may not be true, then dealing with those implications. It's not an instant internally transforming process. Although I feel I have a handle on it now... I anticipate another earthquake will be approaching from this site. I'm curious to know how many Christians came here and ended up learning as I? Think what would happen if there were an exploratory high school class into the critical thinking of the cultural norms of our society, as presented on this site? Could our whole culture handle a sudden search for the truth in these regards? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotBlinded Posted February 7, 2007 Share Posted February 7, 2007 A diety might need worship because it is a creation of the mind, but God doesn't, IMO. I think that this essence is a part of what we are. It is life. So in a sense, one could say that living a good life and knowing that we are life is in itself a form of worship. If we go against life, such as hating being here and feeling like a traveler that doesn't belong, we create our own hell. It's all in the way we perceive life. We are a part of this planet. We weren't born into it, we were born from it. In understanding life this way, we can understand that this is our home and we weren't just plopped here in order to perform so we can be judged later. That is just absurd. We are our own judges and life doesn't care what we do. Although, life has a way of correcting our behavior on its own. If we are mean to people, they are mean back. If we see ourselves in the other person, forgiveness comes naturally. If we see that they are also a part of this life that we all share, love is just there. Not the emotion of love, but a deeper sense of understanding. Okay...that should make the fluffy bunny happy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amanda Posted February 7, 2007 Share Posted February 7, 2007 <snip> So in a sense, one could say that living a good life and knowing that we are life is in itself a form of worship. If we go against life, such as hating being here and feeling like a traveler that doesn't belong, we create our own hell. It's all in the way we perceive life. We are a part of this planet. We weren't born into it, we were born from it. In understanding life this way, we can understand that this is our home and we weren't just plopped here in order to perform so we can be judged later. That is just absurd. We are our own judges and life doesn't care what we do. NBBBTB, I really like the way you articulated this! IMO, it is a perspective that creates a wonderful internal state. You are so wise. I understand how religion initially used "God" to explain what they didn't know. It is amazing how our rational mind has to know "why" events are happening. What I am curious to know is how western and middle eastern religions evolved to separate us from nature and to not just consider humans as so superior, but that some humans are better than others! IMO, this direction may have been what separated us from "God," from being at one with the rest of the universe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotBlinded Posted February 7, 2007 Share Posted February 7, 2007 <snip> So in a sense, one could say that living a good life and knowing that we are life is in itself a form of worship. If we go against life, such as hating being here and feeling like a traveler that doesn't belong, we create our own hell. It's all in the way we perceive life. We are a part of this planet. We weren't born into it, we were born from it. In understanding life this way, we can understand that this is our home and we weren't just plopped here in order to perform so we can be judged later. That is just absurd. We are our own judges and life doesn't care what we do. NBBBTB, I really like the way you articulated this! IMO, it is a perspective that creates a wonderful internal state. You are so wise. I understand how religion initially used "God" to explain what they didn't know. It is amazing how our rational mind has to know "why" events are happening. What I am curious to know is how western and middle eastern religions evolved to separate us from nature and to not just consider humans as so superior, but that some humans are better than others! IMO, this direction may have been what separated us from "God," from being at one with the rest of the universe. Thanks Amanda...you too! I really don't know, but that is a good question. Wow...at first I thought that maybe it had something to do with God being on one side during invasions or something, but it looks like China had it's own share of internal strifes. I really don't know why one group put God outside and the other put the life force in nature. Or...maybe it's just a misunderstanding of their own mythology? There are common themes of the indwelling nature of God with many religions. Maybe one group just happen to notice how much power could be had by claiming that God was on their side? If you ever figure that out, will you let me know? I have never wondered about that before...cool! Edit: It does appear that China has/had a whole bunch of dieties. So, what the heck is the reason for the difference I wonder? It surely has to have something to do with the way the view themselves. I bet it also has a lot to do with language. From what I understand, their language doesn't lead to the separation of one from nature. I think, if I can remember correctly, that a chinese child wouldn't ask where did they come from, they would ask how do I grow? (Campbell, I think...or Watts) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlerman Posted February 7, 2007 Share Posted February 7, 2007 It's because God is the ultimate THOUGHT NAZI Auschwitz has nothing on hell. Oh crap! I was going to post a serious response, but I can't after this one!! Damn that's funny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlerman Posted February 7, 2007 Share Posted February 7, 2007 I have a hard time understanding why it is so important to most Christians (not all) that we (or all non-believers) have to believe in God, and that somehow believing in God will please God so much that he will reward us to be sent to Heaven instead of Hell. My problem is, why does God need anyone to believe in him? Why is it so important to him/her that these tiny creatures believe that he/she exists? And the same problem goes for Jesus. Why does God require "faith" or "belief" to be saved? Why isn't my life only judged by my actions, instead of what I happens to believe? Explain this "faith" or "belief" energy or power that is so important to God. Ok, I'll try to pull myself together after Mythra's post.... Two thoughts: 1. The promoters of this doctrine are projecting on God how faith works for them. They need others to believe to affirm their own beliefs, so they lay it on God to get people to join in with them and make them feel better about themselves. 2. The progenitors of the faith stated it this way because in order for the principle of the belief to have an effect on someone they have to hold them up as ideals in their lives. Putting God as the symbol of these ideals causes people to focus on them as being of supreme importance. It's a social realization that the founders of faith recognized, and by default used the language of mythology of their culture to communicate it. Today philosophers hold them up as human principles. Then, it was God's laws. In either case you have to believe in them in order for them to work. We are saved by faith. We are saved by believing in X. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted February 7, 2007 Share Posted February 7, 2007 It's because if you stop believing in a god, that god dies. If you start believing then it can be brought back to life again. Zeus is a recent example of this. Whichever god has the most fervent believers is most powerful. And so on. Belief is kind of like a supernatural voting system. mwc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lycorth Posted February 7, 2007 Share Posted February 7, 2007 It's because God is the ultimate THOUGHT NAZI Auschwitz has nothing on hell. Hilarious - and right on the money! After all, what is Hell but an eternal concentration camp/Gulag where Jebus the Divine Dictator sends all the "undesirables" who refuse to conform to the party line? Xianity is nothing more than spiritual Nazism, just like Is-lame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted February 7, 2007 Author Share Posted February 7, 2007 I've been thinking in these lines: Lets say you were a super smart inventor who made a group of robots that had a "free will" and some kind of consciousness. Then you put these robot creatures in a closed room, and you wake them up. Then you give one of them a "revelation" through a radio communication that you exists and this robot have to tell the other robots that you exists, and that if they "believe" that you exists they will be rewarded when they "die" to come to the heavenly oil-bath, but if they don't believe you exist they will end up in an endless torture chamber where they will be pulled apart and then put together again, just to give as much "pain" and discomfort as possible. Would it make sense as a inventor and creator to do something like this? I would make a little more sense if I required them to behave "good" or "moral" to each other, but why would I demand "belief" in my existence to get the reward? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotBlinded Posted February 7, 2007 Share Posted February 7, 2007 Would it make sense as a inventor and creator to do something like this? I would make a little more sense if I required them to behave "good" or "moral" to each other, but why would I demand "belief" in my existence to get the reward? Because if they didn't believe you existed then they wouldn't believe that there was punishment for being bad. If they don't regard you with respect and admiration, then again, they won't worry about what you can do to them. Would you respect a pussy God? (I'm sorry...I just couldn't help myself!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted February 7, 2007 Author Share Posted February 7, 2007 That only makes sense for a generic god, but not for a specific god like the Christian. That could be okay for a theist or a deist maybe. But even so, many believe in some kind of karma that makes them do good, without really specifically believe in one particular god. So why does Jahweh/God/Jesus demand belief in Jahweh/God/Jesus on top of demanding you being a good person? Or, we know that we can argue "good behavior" and "morals" by philosophical arguments, and me as an inventor could reveal this to the robots instead of requiring a "belief". -edit- In this kind of religion, my interest as an inventor is not for them to act good, because "acting good" is secondary, but my primary motive is for them to "believe". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lycorth Posted February 7, 2007 Share Posted February 7, 2007 Because if they didn't believe you existed then they wouldn't believe that there was punishment for being bad. Are you saying you're immoral because you don't believe in the Xian god? Or that we are? Unless you're just being sarcastic, of course... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotBlinded Posted February 7, 2007 Share Posted February 7, 2007 Really though...I think that people mistake fear for respect quite often. Probably even more so when this diety was invented. The is a part of the myth that has become antiquated(?). It no longer applies because we now know that when parents use force to gain respect, they are actually only gaining compliance by fear. But, I know that there are probably people that when you ask them why they do everything their parents tell them it's because it's out of fear of punishment. Even adults feel this, but they will probably say they do it out of respect. That is not true respect, that is fear disguised as respect. This leaves the dignity in place in the offspring when actually it is a defense mechanism to avoid their parents disapproval. IMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotBlinded Posted February 7, 2007 Share Posted February 7, 2007 Because if they didn't believe you existed then they wouldn't believe that there was punishment for being bad. Are you saying you're immoral because you don't believe in the Xian god? Or that we are? Unless you're just being sarcastic, of course... Oh stop it! Of course not. I was in the scenario. I think this is what they believe, that is why they worship the monster they claim created them. They come here and tell us that all the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotBlinded Posted February 7, 2007 Share Posted February 7, 2007 That only makes sense for a generic god, but not for a specific god like the Christian. That could be okay for a theist or a deist maybe. But even so, many believe in some kind of karma that makes them do good, without really specifically believe in one particular god. So why does Jahweh/God/Jesus demand belief in Jahweh/God/Jesus on top of demanding you being a good person? Or, we know that we can argue "good behavior" and "morals" by philosophical arguments, and me as an inventor could reveal this to the robots instead of requiring a "belief". -edit- In this kind of religion, my interest as an inventor is not for them to act good, because "acting good" is secondary, but my primary motive is for them to "believe". Well...maybe my last post about the parents might help. I'm having a hard time seeing this God as real so my focus keeps shifting to why the people would think that God would require this. I think it's because if they don't fear God you won't believe in his powers. Hell...none of this makes sense as they claim it but it does make sense from a pyschological perspective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted February 7, 2007 Author Share Posted February 7, 2007 The reason why I've been starting to ponder about this question is from the phrase: "believe in Jesus and you'll be saved." And it makes me wonder why the Christian god cares more about what I believe than what I do, or even the reasons to why I believe such-and-such. Lets say the reason a person don't believe in god is because he's been hurt by Christians, why does this cruel god still demand belief, even if there's good reasons to why this person doesn't believe? I think this is part of why the Christian god comes out looking like a cruel and evil bastard, because he doesn't have a clue or consideration for the circumstances, but only demand blind belief. And it doesn't even matter if a person is evil and kill, as long as he believes he'll be saved. And that constantly leads me to the image of Santa Claus, and how Christmas is threatened because so few kids believe in him. Like some have pointed out correctly, god's existence is depending on people's belief in him, and without the belief, he'll disappear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lycorth Posted February 7, 2007 Share Posted February 7, 2007 Of course not. I was in the scenario. I think this is what they believe, that is why they worship the monster they claim created them. They come here and tell us that all the time. Ah - had me worried for a moment, there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotBlinded Posted February 7, 2007 Share Posted February 7, 2007 ...and without the belief, he'll disappear. I think that is your answer. Or, that the religion will diminish and disappear. I may find Jesus' words insightful in some instances, but I don't believe in him as a God. I no longer follow their relgion. The power goes away.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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