Why Does God Even Care If We Believe In Him Or Not?

[NotBlinded]

Of course not. I was in the scenario. I think this is what they believe, that is why they worship the monster they claim created them. They come here and tell us that all the time.

 

Ah - had me worried for a moment, there

Sorry 'bout that! I would never claim that unless I was in a horrible accident and lost most of my brain. (Okay...that was bad, but damn it felt good!)

[Ouroboros]

Damn it. I posted twice and both times the system crashed and I lost my answer.

 

I was really trying to figure out the Christian perspective and not so much the natural or the psychological explanation, but I think I got it now. "Belief" to them is the magical crystal that gives them the powers they need to go through a back-door into Heaven, instead of "doing good", they only need the "belief" amulet and god will let them in. It was a miscalculation in god's design. It was supposed to be "acting good" but the hole in the system is that guillibility works too. The more gullible you are, the easier it is to go in.

[Lycorth]

Pretty much it, Han.

 

Especially if we listen to the evangelical interpretaiton of the Babble, all one needs is "faith" (ie, belief) and all is made right. Your deeds will be the best, you will avoid all evil, and you'll get a free pass to Heaven when you die.

 

To a Xian, faith/belief is the magic amulet that makes everything right. Even if your deeds clearly don't reflect it, that all-precious belief is what matters.

[Ouroboros]

On my way home from work I remembered one of the things I had been thinking about this "belief to be saved" thing. It does resemble the Disney stories, I mean, most of the Disney stories are based on "if you just dream or believe and it will happen". And so is Christianity; it is based on the idea of dreaming about what you want and hoping really hard and then somehow magically it comes true. The big loop hole in god's creation: be saved by wishing on a star. How sad is that? Christianity: the cartoon version of religion!

[garrisonjj]

I have a hard time understanding why it

 

Good post. If god is all powerful and all knowing, didn't he know how I'd turn out before creating me? Why does my love or worship mean anything to him?

This is assuming such an entity exists.

If I worship more, do I get more good stuff? or a cure from cancer? Or heaven?

NOw, Now,,,,if you don't worship me and acknowledge me, I have this fire I prepared for you, even though I knew how you'd turn out.

Such bullshit!

[NotBlinded]

Damn it. I posted twice and both times the system crashed and I lost my answer.

 

I was really trying to figure out the Christian perspective and not so much the natural or the psychological explanation, but I think I got it now. "Belief" to them is the magical crystal that gives them the powers they need to go through a back-door into Heaven, instead of "doing good", they only need the "belief" amulet and god will let them in. It was a miscalculation in god's design. It was supposed to be "acting good" but the hole in the system is that guillibility works too. The more gullible you are, the easier it is to go in.

Yes, but you have yourself given a psychological explanation. There is really no other way to answer it because the question is based on why a "someone" would "believe" this about God. Because you can't ask God your question, "Why does God require "faith" or "belief" to be saved?" you have to rely on why "someone" would "believe" God would require it. But, I feel your pain!

[Amanda]

Damn it. I posted twice and both times the system crashed and I lost my answer.

 

I was really trying to figure out the Christian perspective and not so much the natural or the psychological explanation, but I think I got it now. "Belief" to them is the magical crystal that gives them the powers they need to go through a back-door into Heaven, instead of "doing good", they only need the "belief" amulet and god will let them in. It was a miscalculation in god's design. It was supposed to be "acting good" but the hole in the system is that guillibility works too. The more gullible you are, the easier it is to go in.

HanSolo, I think the necessary belief in a God, as they define God, was a human attempt to accumulate power. It worked pretty good. "Believe to be saved from eternal damnation" is a pretty good selling point if you can get someone to buy it... and they did.

 

However, the mindset of the typical Christian is probably as you say here. Belief could be that you know him and therefore have a relationship... and if you two don't have an established relationship, if you're not willing to go by his rules, if you're not going to worship him as he asks you to do, how can you go live with him in his house eternally? It's just plain good manners!

[chefranden]

1. The character of Jesus gave a model of living this life here on earth.

 

2. If we are to live by a higher calling, which we come to believe exists, and find this to be quite beneficial for self and others through testing it, till we have conviction, what is wrong with that faith?

 

3. If we have this faith in what gives a boost to our emotional well being, gives us self empowerment to overcome our hurdles in life... doesn't that save us?

 

1. I suppose that most folks that use Jesus for a model paste the characteristics they like on his ghost making him an icon, mostly, of how they wished others behaved and believed. In contrast the story doesn't present much in the way of a model for living an ordinary life. Most people are not itinerant preachers. Sure Jesus is supposed to have given some advice on how to live here and there, but even that is lacking in any great breadth. WWJD is a question without answer from the master in most situations. The questioner has to make up the answer on her own, or submit to the authority of some possible Elmer Gantry. The answer mostly cannot come from the paltry model available.

 

I know it is all touchy feelly to feel that Jesus leads one either metaphorically or in reality, but there is just not enough information available to make Jesus the guru of life, even if he was one to his crowd. If one cannot figure out how to live on one's own, at least choose a figure that has some real solidity.

 

2. What the heck is this higher calling? Higher than what? I'm highly suspicious of higher callings, because for the most part if people act on them trouble ensues. Occasionally you get a MLK large or small, but mostly you get Hitlers and bin Ladens large and small. Finding a higher calling is often quite detrimental to others and self, and I wish people would quit looking for them.

 

3. Save us from what? No delusion ever made me feel as good as Cannabis, so if a person needs propping up, I suggest drugs. Sure delusion may have less immediate side effects than chocolate, but at the end of the day you are just playing games with your own head.

 

Back in the 70's "Jesus is my Co-Pilot" was a popular bumper sticker. Not even born again Christians were dumb enough to make Jesus the Pilot. If I start seeing bumper stickers to that effect, I'm getting the frell off the road.

[Former Follier]

The reason why I've been starting to ponder about this question is from the phrase: "believe in Jesus and you'll be saved."

 

And it makes me wonder why the Christian god cares more about what I believe than what I do, or even the reasons to why I believe such-and-such. Lets say the reason a person don't believe in god is because he's been hurt by Christians, why does this cruel god still demand belief, even if there's good reasons to why this person doesn't believe? I think this is part of why the Christian god comes out looking like a cruel and evil bastard, because he doesn't have a clue or consideration for the circumstances, but only demand blind belief. And it doesn't even matter if a person is evil and kill, as long as he believes he'll be saved.

 

And that constantly leads me to the image of Santa Claus, and how Christmas is threatened because so few kids believe in him. Like some have pointed out correctly, god's existence is depending on people's belief in him, and without the belief, he'll disappear.

I completely agree and am equally as perplexed. Why are our beliefs more important to god than our actions? If we were to expound on that rationale and apply it to the current court systems we could draw this parallel: Let's assume that I am completely opposed to taking another human's life for any reason whatsoever, a true pacifist. If I were to kill someone, whether intentionally or otherwise, could I expect our court system to exhonerate me of my crime due to the fact that I have always claimed a pacifistic lifestyle? It's a completely asinine assumption that what we believe supersedes our actions. Isn't there a nice little saying to the affect that "actions speak louder than words"? How do Fundys rationalize a future eternity spent in their understanding of heaven by having uttered a simple prayer when they were five years old? I'm under the impression that living your life abiding by man's laws and striving for some sort of personal moral uprightness better qualifies you for a peaceful hereafter than a read-along prayer recited in Sunday School or at the altar.

[Ouroboros]

Good points FF.

 

I was trying to post a comment earlier but the system kept on kicking me out, and I don't think I managed to get it in, so here I do it again; forgive me if I happened to repeat myself:

 

If I was a parent to a blind child, and we were having dinner. The child didn't finish the dinner, and doesn't have the "right" to get the dessert.

 

Now, would I as a parent tell the child that he would not get the dessert because he didn't finish his dinner, or would I make something up like "my face is green", and if the child believes my statement he will get the dessert? The former behavior would constitute a good parent, while the latter would constitute an unethical prankster parent.

[Amanda]

1. I suppose that most folks that use Jesus for a model paste the characteristics they like on his ghost making him an icon, mostly, of how they wished others behaved and believed. In contrast the story doesn't present much in the way of a model for living an ordinary life. Most people are not itinerant preachers. Sure Jesus is supposed to have given some advice on how to live here and there, but even that is lacking in any great breadth. WWJD is a question without answer from the master in most situations. The questioner has to make up the answer on her own, or submit to the authority of some possible Elmer Gantry. The answer mostly cannot come from the paltry model available.

Chef, IMO, this story calls us to go on an individual journey into ourself. It encourages us to think for ourself. It calls us NOT to judge other people, against condemnation, and to judge only to help each other do better. The questioner has to create the answer on their own because spirituality is an individual journey... making requirements for dogma and convenience of mass herding bolstering blind faith defeating its intentions.

 

I know it is all touchy feelly to feel that Jesus leads one either metaphorically or in reality, but there is just not enough information available to make Jesus the guru of life, even if he was one to his crowd. If one cannot figure out how to live on one's own, at least choose a figure that has some real solidity.

 

IMO, there are many gurus. No one is the ultimate for all things. There can be a style that one person identifies with or connects with more than another for different reasons. I do think it healthy to consider teachings from many different sources. I also can see where fundamentalism could be considered a disorder, and I would never encourage a person recovering from alcoholism to just drink wine with dinner. There's too many other beverages to enjoy in life to go back there and an appreciation of new flavors in life can be quite beneficial as well as refreshing. However, it seems healthy for a recovered alcoholic to see that everyone who drinks liquor is not an alcoholic.

 

2. What the heck is this higher calling? Higher than what? I'm highly suspicious of higher callings, because for the most part if people act on them trouble ensues. Occasionally you get a MLK large or small, but mostly you get Hitlers and bin Ladens large and small. Finding a higher calling is often quite detrimental to others and self, and I wish people would quit looking for them.

I suppose that what I am referring to is more of a self actualization as referenced by Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs. It is a very popular non-religous model of how our outlook evolves as certain degrees of our basic needs are finally met to allow us to reach these perspectives.

 

3. Save us from what? No delusion ever made me feel as good as Cannabis, so if a person needs propping up, I suggest drugs. Sure delusion may have less immediate side effects than chocolate, but at the end of the day you are just playing games with your own head.

IMO, what was being referred here is about what bolsters our will to thrive saves us and what drains us of it kills us. Receiving condemnation can drain the emotional energy from us leading to depression, guilt, hopelessness, etc., as well as negate the personal responsibility of the person doing the condemning from their part to contribute to the solution too. If we can make judgements that allow us to victoriously overcome these detrimental effects, empowering us, it also increases our will to thrive... hence saving our spirit, our emotional well being.

 

Back in the 70's "Jesus is my Co-Pilot" was a popular bumper sticker. Not even born again Christians were dumb enough to make Jesus the Pilot. If I start seeing bumper stickers to that effect, I'm getting the frell off the road.

 

Clearly today's popular Christianity does not make sense. Perhaps those stickers on these cars let us know, who to watch out for unstable thinking. It may be a little sign that lets us know of someone's reasoning skills... and couldn't that be a beneficial piece of information? We'd then know who they were rather than driving without that knowledge...

 

Yet even compassion towards them could go quite far, because if we judge them the way they judge everyone else... what good would that be? "Anyway, I understand how they got that line of thinking to a great degree, as most of us here do, so I hope I won't throw any stones.

[Lycorth]

1. I suppose that most folks that use Jesus for a model paste the characteristics they like on his ghost making him an icon, mostly, of how they wished others behaved and believed. In contrast the story doesn't present much in the way of a model for living an ordinary life. Most people are not itinerant preachers. Sure Jesus is supposed to have given some advice on how to live here and there, but even that is lacking in any great breadth. WWJD is a question without answer from the master in most situations. The questioner has to make up the answer on her own, or submit to the authority of some possible Elmer Gantry. The answer mostly cannot come from the paltry model available.

 

I know it is all touchy feelly to feel that Jesus leads one either metaphorically or in reality, but there is just not enough information available to make Jesus the guru of life, even if he was one to his crowd. If one cannot figure out how to live on one's own, at least choose a figure that has some real solidity.

 

Fuckin' A - couldn't have said it better, myself

 

All gods were made in human images, according to human needs and desires. Jebus isn't any different, and the different portrayals of Jebus throughout time attest to this. Believers just ascribe different attributes or characteristics to Jebus as they see fit, always in accord with their own needs and beliefs, and usually without regard to the actual depictions of Jebus in the Babble.

 

WWJD? is indeed a non-question, since the believer needs to answer it. Jebus is only depicted as having done a handful of things, few of which have any application to the majority of things people face in the real world. In truth, asking What Would I Do is a more honest question, since that's what it really boils down to, anyway.

 

One might as well select any Pagan god from all the pantheons of the world and ascribe his or her favorite attributes accordingly. It would be more honest than doing so with Jebus, who is depicted as having a number of traits that most people, if they looked honestly at them, would find repulsive. Personally, if I were to make up my own god from one that alreadt exists, I'd choose Perun. There are a lot more grey areas to fill in, and no demands from Perun that I should hate myself and my loved ones to serve him.

 

I wish people would just be honest about religion in general and realize that it's a human invention which should serve human needs or else be discarded.