Guest ukchris Posted February 8, 2007 Share Posted February 8, 2007 I don't believe in the Bible-God, myself. Then please accept my "I have a brain" badge, and wear it proudly. If you are uncomfortable with him being a Christian, then you have no right to place the blame on him, especially since it seems it did not become an issue until you made it one. I didn't make any issue until after he broke up with me. I have every right to be pissed off that after 4 years he suddenly decides he can't be with me because I'm not a Christian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sage Nabooru Posted February 8, 2007 Share Posted February 8, 2007 I didn't make any issue until after he broke up with me. I have every right to be pissed off that after 4 years he suddenly decides he can't be with me because I'm not a Christian. Well like a lot here have said, he might just be using it as a convenient excuse. I'm not trying to condemn you, that's just not in me. I can totally understand how you feel, I think we've all been there before. We've all loved and lost. And I think we all know that line about it being better than never having loved at all, to be bullshit. It's obvious you're really angry right now, personally I think you're killing the messenger, your boyfriend leaves you and uses religion as his excuse, and since you cannot approach him personally (he being gone) you let your anger out on his claimed religious reasons. (Seriously it really doesn't sound like he made his religion a central focus of his life, if he had he would have brought it out of the bag much sooner, while you were an agnostic). Under the circumstances your feelings, while I think are not entirely well-placed, are totally understandable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ukchris Posted February 8, 2007 Share Posted February 8, 2007 Initally I just wanted to show him some logic and help him see sense. I don't think that's possible though. When I did my research, I found more to back up my own stance, so I guess there is no turning back. I really didn't expect to be so thoroughly convinced. But I guess that's what happens when you open your mind and apply logic. Everyone should try it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dhampir Posted February 8, 2007 Share Posted February 8, 2007 But there shouldn't only be nagging doubts, there should be GAPING HOLES in the validity of the whole thing. And people want to base their life around such tosh? If doubts exist I say explore them!!!!! Let me just review the whole thing: They believe that Adam was convinced by a talking snake to eat a forbidden apple, then a flood destroying all of humanity - bar two people. God's son (who is the same person as God - still with me?), comes to Earth and needs to be killed by sinners in order to save them. Anybody who rejects this proves they have a functioning level of rationality in between their ears!!! Made sense to me. As I progressed into my middle teens, that's when it began to seem like the whole thing might be bunk. I started by treating the garden of eden story as a metaphor, even my parents told me that. You probably can remember that the things you had cut and dried answers for just stopped making sense one day, like you can't understand how you ever understood it before. That's what I'm getting at. For some people, providing one's own answers, or relying on the answers of others is enough to allay the doubts; it becomes easy to explain to themselves that either the nonsense will be made sensible, or that they simply read it wrong. They simply haven't or can't come to a point where they can question outside themselves and their dogmas. You're a new deconvert, and your deconversion has led to an unfortunate (but probably good ultimately) situation, so I can understand that you are high-strung about the ridiculousness of it all, but you said you didn't expect to be so convinced, so you should understand that there's a reason it took you so long to get to that questioning phase to begin with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikefight Posted February 8, 2007 Share Posted February 8, 2007 Mikefight: What convinced you that Christianity didn't make much sense? Check out my testimony in the that part of the forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikefight Posted February 8, 2007 Share Posted February 8, 2007 The fact of the matter is that many, many people are fully capable of going through life as Christians and enjoying it. We may accuse them of ignoring this verse or cherry-picking this passage, but really, does it ultimately matter? If we win the battle are we really winning a war? If a person is happy the way they are, and allows others to be happy the way they are, then I see no reason to start a fight. In America, the problem is this thinking is seeping into the government. Laws are getting passed that are making disbelief in God seem like you are Un-American. The courts should not decide what sexual preference is right. "In God we trust" should not be on the currency. "Under God" should be removed from the Pledge. If we stand by and let people believe dogma without questioning we are allowing it to spread. I think we should protest in an intelligent manner. I think everyone should just point out the loical flaws in dogma when someone makes a statement is made to support it. If someone in government makes a statement like this they should be asked to back it up. If a news program like CNN have a panel of idiots stomp on logic and support dogma, we should write in and ask for a debate to clear the air on this prejudice. I for one do not want to live in a nation that has laws forcing me to go to church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
godlessgrrl Posted February 8, 2007 Share Posted February 8, 2007 Religion is only as much of an issue in a relationship as the participants make it. For some people, it matters a lot. For others, it really doesn't. It looks like your atheism/agnosticism matters to you, ukchris, and that's fine. And it looks like your ex's Xianity matters to him, at least enough to use it as an excuse to leave you. Which isn't to say that I don't think him using religion as an excuse to leave wasn't a shitty thing to do. It was indeed shitty, if only because it means he couldn't be completely honest with you and just say "look, this isn't working anymore, I'm sorry but I need to bail." Fwiw I was dumped once for not being Xian enough for someone. Turns out he was an utter asshat, and I know I'm better off without him... but having that be the alleged "reason" someone leaves just Really Sucks Ass. On the subject of whether or not a person can be GLBT and still be Xian: I honestly don't know how anybody can. Leviticus and Romans 1 seem pretty clear on that to me, anyway. But I should note that my religious background is pretty conservative and inerrantist/literalist. I took the Buybull pretty literally when I was a Xian. There are people who have managed to pull off what I think are some pretty impressive verse-manipulating gymnastics and figure out a way to live being both gay and Xian; so while I know it's possible, I haven't got the slightest clue how they pull it off. It just makes no sense to me why anyone would want to follow a religion that finds them abominable. But then that's just me. Your mileage may vary. My condolences on your breakup, by the way. Breakups suck ass. It's okay to be mad about it for awhile. Hang in there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Former Follier Posted February 8, 2007 Share Posted February 8, 2007 Here's the situation: I appreciate any advice, support or information. I am a gay guy been with my bf for about 4 years. I was agnostic, but started reading the God Delusion by Richard Dawkins and it opened my eyes. I shared some of my thoughts with him, and now he can't be with me anymore because I consider myself leaning towards Atheisim. If there is a God, I believe that the bible or koran or whatever has no relevance. I have tried reasoning with him, and it seems does have problems with certain aspects of his faith. No intelligent person wouldn't! But he says that the prophesies of the Old Testament PROVE that it's all true. I am not so sure it does. We have no evidence when they were written, and the prophesies are so vague. I am also pretty sure there are failed prophesies that nobody would mention, would be helpful if someone could share. So, I am stuck now. I love this guy, and it seems infinitely unfair and ridiculous for us to be breaking up over a delusion. So in a word......help! Chris Chris, I don't want to sound apathetic or anything but would you want to believe in a god that people claim has shunned you, a member of the gay populace? I don't understand why gays and lesbians try to cling to a faith that rejects them. If it were me, I would flip them the finger and be out! Can anyone enlighten me? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sage Nabooru Posted February 8, 2007 Share Posted February 8, 2007 I think we should protest in an intelligent manner. I think everyone should just point out the loical flaws in dogma when someone makes a statement is made to support it. If someone in government makes a statement like this they should be asked to back it up. If a news program like CNN have a panel of idiots stomp on logic and support dogma, we should write in and ask for a debate to clear the air on this prejudice. I for one do not want to live in a nation that has laws forcing me to go to church. Personally, I will debate and fight to the death for the right to choose my own beliefs and follow them, and even for those beliefs of others that I do not agree with. But the actual beliefs themselves matter little to me. The thing is, I really have no problem if a Muslim woman wants to dress up like a ninja and marry a man twice her age and expect an eternity of babysitting children while her husband bangs his virgins. When she insists I do the same, though, that's where the draw the line. There are certain religious movements I will always oppose because I do think they're grounded in evil, greed, deceit, and power-grabbing. There's no way I will give support to Scientology's right to operate as a religion, nor will I say that Rabbi Berg's commercialization of kabbalah is totally legitimate Judaism. But just because I left Christianity and had bitter experiences with it myself - I am still forced to admit that there is a feeling of charity and forgiveness in Christianity and a sincere belief on the part of its followers, that's not grounded in conversion quotas, money laundering, or outright opposition to everyone else. If there was every Christian alive would be following it. In my experience Christianity can be very mean and demanding, and doctrinally I'd rate it rather low on the scale of human religions. But I think the core teachings of it can be practiced peacefully by people, people they call "liberal Christians". So when fundies call for Ten Commandments statues in City Hall, I will step forward and show that their actions are unconstitutional and against the idea of freedom and equal rights, but when it comes to doctrinal debates, I would find that such arguments would be better presented in a philosophical forum and totally inappropriate to that particular situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ukchris Posted February 9, 2007 Share Posted February 9, 2007 Thanks you guys for replying. Mikefight: I completely agree with you, politics and religion should be chalk and cheese. To mix the two is to end up with cheesy chalk or chalky cheese, that doesn't sound good to me qwenmead: I am not sure how he rationalising being gay and being Christian. But Christians rationalise lots of things in the bible. It's like a woman excusing an abusing husband's behaviour. Just doesn't make sense to somebody outside of that mindset. Former Follier: No I don't have an answer for you on that. But the bible hates many people, so I certainly don't feel singled-out in any way! The Sage: I agree, there should be tolerance, but there is a line drawn when religions and belief impact on other people. If religious folk are quite happy in their ignorance, then that's fine. But that ignorance should not be used as a basis for other people to live their lives. I know from what you've said that we agree on that, and it's great that you stand up for those principles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jella Posted February 10, 2007 Share Posted February 10, 2007 It's obvious you're really angry right now, personally I think you're killing the messenger, your boyfriend leaves you and uses religion as his excuse, and since you cannot approach him personally (he being gone) you let your anger out on his claimed religious reasons. Remember that this is a two-way street. You were previously an agnostic. Were your boyfriend's religious leanings ever an issue before? If not, why are they now? Do you feel compelled to "convert" him to atheism? Do you feel that you cannot be with a person who does not share the same atheism as yourself? Is it possible that you could be the problem? Are you asking him to conform to a belief system with which he is uncomfortable? How would you react if he did the same to you? There is nothing wrong with you being an atheist, I'm just asking if it's possible that perhaps you might be the source of this newfound friction. I don't think he is killing the messenger from what I see. UKChris, I have to agree with the consensus that he did use it as an excuse. After four years you do have every right in my opinion to be pissed. ( lol, in America that means angry, not drunk) Good riddance, and I hope you find someone that can be open to your views. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LosingMyReligion Posted February 10, 2007 Share Posted February 10, 2007 Chris, I agree with the bulk of the other posters. You need to make a clean break and be done with him. If he was willing to throw away a four year relationship over something so trivial (so what if your beliefs are different? Don't discuss religion, simple as that) he was looking for an out to begin with. You didn't do anything wrong, he just wanted out of the relationship. He just wasn't man enough to tell you the actual reason. On that note, as a gay person myself, I think any gay who would stick with this religion is a self hating delusionoid. I can't count the sheer number of Gay Christian affirmative literature that tries to rewrite the Bible just so one can be gay and keep his faith. I mean so much is up for interpretation, but there isn't an interpretation for, "Homosexuals shall not inherit the kingdom of heaven." You can't spin a statement like that. If you love other men, emotionally and physically, you are a homosexual and you'll rot in a fictional place called hell...Do not pass go, don't collect 200 dollars. When I accepted my gayness Christianity was the first thing I kicked to the curb. Good for you that you got out of religion, now you are on the path to true self acceptance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue elephant Posted February 11, 2007 Share Posted February 11, 2007 While it is very hurtful...you can't make someone love you when they don't. He may geuinely be doing battle with the issue of Christianity and just have a whole big bag of mixed feelings and contradictory beliefs. It isn't necessary to try and see what has been done to you as part of an organised belief system. Since when have Christians been totally organised and logical??? There have always been logical holes in the Christian belief system. At the very bottom line, they cannot combine the ideas about a merciful god with all the other ideas about god hating gays and .....all sorts of other people. So... you need to move on. Even if one day your friend realises how contradictory his beliefs are and changes them, he is not at that point here and now. And there is no point in waiting about and being all mopey in the meantime. There should be someone out there in the world who is less trouble and more supportive to who you are. Time to go looking!! Best wishes to you ukchris. It's a tough time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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