So F'ing Pissed Off I'm Just Beside Myself

[Kelli]

Where do you work that you can speak your mind? In most companies, talking about politics is a no-no (unless you're fundy, then you can talk about it all you want without fear of being fired).

 

I guess I'm just used to either being self employed, or working in radio. At my office, I have a studio where shows like Rush Limbaugh and Laura Ingram are broadcast, and at the other end of the hall, a studio where shows like Stephanie Miller and Randi Rhodes are broadcast. I'm used to people talking all kinds of political shit from all sides of the political spectrum.

 

As I type this, I am engineering a live broadcast outside of the studio for a local talk show host who is extremely conservative. I could (and have) spoken my more liberal and libertarian views to this host with no fear. I guess that's just the nature of my business.

[R. S. Martin]

Ruby,

 

I was in no way laughing at you. A little good-natured "LOL" but I was definitely not trying to make fun of you. Yes, I know you're from a Mennonite background, but quite honestly I figured that someone who was as active and fluent on the internet as you must have quite a bit of exposure to technology at this point. If not, that's fine...

 

Okay, thanks for clearing that up. I guess I can see why people thought the first thing I'd do would be to go out and get myself a radio. Bicycle and camara were higher on my list of must-haves. I had spent twenty years working very far below minimum wages and by the time I left the horse and buggy people (after more than a year in university) I hadn't a cent to my name. Someone in my new church fixed up a bicycle for me for free that had just been sitting in someone's garage. And I got a prize for a paper I wrote so I used it to buy a camera a year later.

 

My first computer was also someone else's cast-off. Eventually, it was discovered that I was working with fairly significant handicaps such as very low vision and other problems, and that computer technology could make life a lot easier for me. I qualified for bursary money to get a really good computer. And I am allowed to use it for whatever I want. That led me to explore the internet.

 

It has occurred to me to get a radio but I have never gotten around to it. Seems via forums like this I find out the most important news of the world such as tsunamis, and Hurricane Katrina, and the likes. As for music, I go more for CDs because that is the mainstream technology of the the present and probably near future. I have a tape player but don't really know where to get any tapes. Some years ago I picked up a batch of stuff at a thrift store. I "came onto the scene" right at the end of tape players--1999. They were still the way to go at the time but probably not anymore.

 

The only reason I left the horse and buggy people was that life was totally meaningless and intolerably boring. My mind was too big to live off the kinds of things I was expected to take an interest in. That's the only way I knew to explain it at the time and nobody understood anyway. The emotional trauma of leaving, complete with severe persecution from family and the wider community, left me so thoroughly exhausted that there was no energy left to explore new technology. The new academic years started and I was busy with school.

 

A batch of us had become friends and used to have lunch together. I ranted and raved at those lunches and got the support I needed. But one woman who did not eat with us everyday finally asked what I had done that was so bad. We filled her in. She was totally mystified. She said, "I would have thought you must have commited a crime of some sort the way they are treating you." Truth be told, they honestly considered it worse than a crime, but only people familiar with very conservative religious would understand that.

 

I don't know if this makes sense to anyone else but it's the best explanation I can give as to why I have not invested in more technology. You say here that you work in radio so I can see why you would have assumed I had one; it's just something everybody has. I appreciate your effort at helping me. Sorry for slapping you.

[Vigile]

The biggest problem as I see it is not Bush, but the people that elected him twice. Everything he has done was obvious even before his first election and absolutely apparent prior to his second. Talk of stolen elections isn't even really valid. If close to 50% of the country wouldn't support taking it in the ass by their government then this would never be an issue.

 

I used to think that if Bush was beaten by Kerry that things would have been better. In a sense that's true looking at the fact that we have already lost huge amounts of freedom during the second term under the military act, et al. But now that those rights are turned to dust, a democrat who will potentially replace Bush in 08 is not very likely to repeal the rights that have been lost. The trend of lost freedom has been going on for a long time. The trend of American imperialism is older than all of us. Revolution is not an answer because the American people don't for the most part even see that there is a problem. They just don't care. And therein lay the problem.

 

I wish an Army of Japedo's and Nivek's would rise out of the ashes of what used to be a decent country. I wish...

[Vigile]

Burned, I'm aware of your strategies. I'm just not sure they are going to work on a fed level. Especially in this current political environment. Try some of this stuff at higher levels and you are going to get a terrorist label and some time in Gitmo.

 

I realize I'm not offering solutions and only criticisms. And, I don't disagree with putting pressure on the government - Thoreau is a bit of a hero of mine - I just think that the cards are stacked heavily against those who try to work for meaningful change.

[trashy]

The biggest problem as I see it is not Bush, but the people that elected him twice. Everything he has done was obvious even before his first election and absolutely apparent prior to his second. Talk of stolen elections isn't even really valid. If close to 50% of the country wouldn't support taking it in the ass by their government then this would never be an issue.

And now you know *exactly* how all the conservatives felt in 1996 after Clinton's re-election. And I do mean exactly.

 

So if both sides of the political spectrum think that the biggest problem in the country is the other half of the population, how exactly would you 'fix' that? What one side sees as flaws or outright abuse of power by a party the other side sees as perfectly legal and even beneficial.

[Vigile]

But you don't have a large enough group. Citing the 1st amendment to these guys is like trying to site the statutory code to Tony Soprano. Since you are willing to risk your life I guess more power to you. As for me, I'm not up for playing martyr. I'll just live abroad and do what I can to get a new passport so that I can sever all ties and no longer need to worry about permissions from the fascists.

[Vigile]

Hi Burned,

 

I appreciate a can do attitude probably more than most. I just see how the cards are stacked here. If you seriously cause someone at the fed level fear then they have the power to seriously fuck you. Don't forget, I spent over 4 years in DC working with these guys.

[Vigile]

I agree with your sentiments on freedom. That's why I live abroad. I certainly applaud you and those like you that stay home and fight the system.

[R. S. Martin]

Vigile and Burned, I'm fascinated with this little discussion. Social change and how it happens has been one of my greatest interests for a long time. I think both your approaches are effective, each in their own way. Vigile's might be called passive aggression and Burned's confrontational. Burned is willing to put his life on the line. Vigile is willing to cut ties with the homeland. Uncle Sam won't like either. He wants his sons contented at home supporting him. And it's not happening.

[R. S. Martin]

Ruby,

 

The thing that got me so involved in politics was that in the state I used to live in (Tennessee) before I moved to Florida, back in the years from 1999 to 2002, tried to enact a state income tax. Tennessee did not (and still does not) have a state income tax. During those years, there were several polls run and in virtually every poll more than 70% of the people were against it. There were several of us who started to pick up signs and go to the state capitol in Nashville and start demonstrating. Out of those protests was born a group called Tennessee Tax Revolt, www.tntaxrevolt.org . I am one of the founders of that group. We were the ones who organized the protests of what will probably go down in the colored histroy of the state. Here are some pictures of that event:

 

http://tntaxrevolt.org/crowd1-5-29.jpg http://tntaxrevolt.org/crowd2-5-29.jpg The crowd you see in these pics was the largest one over a 4 year period of this whole mess. There were over 17,000 people on the sidewalks and some grassy areas around the capitol and over 500 cars circling and honking their car horns making it so loud the lawmakers could not do buisiness inside. The sound was measured in with a decibel meter at above that of a rock concert or a jet aircraft taking off. It was a dangerous level and at times the windows of the capitol were shaking from the noise litterally.

 

At one point, they law makers thought they would pull a sneaky move on us. They called a Friday evening session when they thought nobody would pay attention, well they were wrong. On a 30 minute notice this was the result: http://tntaxrevolt.org/july-12-2001.jpg Note-if you look closely at the tip of the steps and infront of the windows, there were over 2000 people who encircled the top steps there and started to pound on the glass windows and several windows got broken and lawmakers panicked and several got spit on by angry protestors. The police just backed out of the way because they were outnumbered 20/1.

 

Here are some assorted pictures of this whole thing: http://tntaxrevolt.org/crowd1-5-22.jpg http://tntaxrevolt.org/crowd2-5-22.jpg http://tntaxrevolt.org/riotpolice-5-22.jpg http://tntaxrevolt.org/herecomedetroopers.jpg http://tntaxrevolt.org/crowd2.jpg

 

Those are just a few pics of that event. While this was going on, we had litterally multiples of thousands of people around the state who were too far away to be at the protests phone calling relentlessly to the legislative offices, homes and places of work for the lawmakers letting them loudly know in not so uncertain terms that we DID NOT WANT A STATE INCOME TAX! One fellow I know, a good friend, even had over 500 elderly people in a local nursing home making phone calls.....LOL...it was called, no kidding..."the Granny Brigade." Those folks were furious and an elderly lady can get away with saying things a younger person cannot. Normally these sweet old ladies would not say the word "shit" if they had a mouth full, but the things they said to those law makers would make a sailor blush...LOL. We had to be ready to protest any any moment of the day or night while the legislature was in session. Not only did we show up at the capitol, we would protest infront of the homes and places of businness of these law makers. When we saw one of the lawmakers in the store shopping, it was not uncommon for a small crowd of people to be following them around telling them NO INCOMETAX! Many of us for a few years were ready at a moments notice to getup throw some clothes on and race to the state capitol. No kidding, most of us were ready to die if needed or go to jail. Every time I speak to someone who was apart of that crowd...we will NEVER be the same again. We are changed people. I hope this gives you a picture of where I come from...

 

I'm getting the picture alright. Your passion is unmistakable. I knew from some of your posts earlier that you were involved with politics but it seemed at the time that you did not want to say too much.

 

QUESTION: If you can bring about that kind of protest regarding legistation, can you also do something to dislodge fundamentalist religion?

[R. S. Martin]

The region I live in, Florida and most of the Southeastern USA is over 80% Religious fundies according to some polls. Forget about this region for at least 200 to 500 years...REALLY...LOL

 

Yup, I know the stats. Your predictions are close to my own. But I do have a pipe dream. This monster cannot be taken on from the outside. It has to be subtle, and it has to be strategic, and it must come from within. I am not saying within the church, but from within the fundamentalist's own heart and mind.

 

We're talking about fear the size of the universe. It's so big that it's not even experienced as fear but as a solid impersonal conviction. I had an indepth conversation with one of my sisters today and that is what I conclude. She has never heard that the Bible is inerrant or infallible. All the same, she talked openly about discrepencies. But she also uses the harmonizing method to make sense of things.

 

To very many of my questions she replied, "I have never analyzed it that much." At one point I asked whether perhaps a Christian should analyze these things; otherwise it's not really her own beliefs. She wasn't sure she could do that--that she's intellectually capable. I think that is part of what we are up against regarding the dislodging of religion. They are convinced they are right and they are incapable of thinking things through on the abstract level like we do here. I don't know how to get through that kind of barrier without violating personal rights. It will probably take five centuries. Plus another five.

[R. S. Martin]

Experience seems to be the best way. Let them experience something. Then come up with a cliche that holds the two concepts parallel and points out the absurdity. But you can't force it.

 

I had truly thought the destruction of New Orleans would convince the fundies via concrete experience that Christians are no better than others. It happened right on the heels of the tsunami where so many people got drowned. But that wasn't a dominant Christian society. I think New Orleans is because it's in the south-eastern US. Seems they didn't learn a thing.

 

Those fundies who got out think God delivered them specifically. Those who didn't get out must obviously have been sinners--so they think. Black and white thinking at its most dangerous.

[Lightbearer]

Every day that man remains in office I just get more and more irritated. Bush is literally destroying this country with his spending billions on this inane war. Don't even get me started on the needless death. Or his push to turn freedom into theocracy.

 

When this is all over we're going to be lucky if we even have an economy, much less a constitution that isn't torn to shreds by theocratic superstitions and the Patriot Act.

 

I just don't even know what to say. We're along for this ride and what can we do about it? Nothing. Nothing but sit back and watch in disbelief as we're told to "go about our business" by this madman.

 

 

Okay, I don't know if you, and alot of people on the board, know this but in America Presidents can only hold office for a limited amount of time; two terms of 4 years. The next election will be held next year 2008, so in about two years time, Bush will not be in office anymore. (I'm not calling you an idiot, i'm being sarcastic here because alot of people seem to have Bush-a-phobia).

 

Right now he can't even do much because every move he makes is ill-received and he is more then likely just waiting out the end of his presidency and trying to pick up the pieces of the mess he got himself into.

 

Which war do you mean exactly, the War on Terror or the War in Iraq? Because spending billions to confront and kill terrorists and Islamic extremists is a very good thing. The needless deaths on our part is due to the fact that the Bush Administration is weak on terror, they refuse to just simply fight this war and have to make side trips to "bring democracy" to be a group of people who would only elect religious Muslim extremists anyways.

 

Your right about the theocracy, because there are alot of powers behind the scenes trying to twist the nation into a type of theocracy. They do this by making up lies about how it is supposed to be a theocracy. But the thing is that our enemies are also theocractic, the people here don't acknowledge "if it's not working for them, it won't work for us" so these are the wrong people to wage a war against them, their too bent on winning "hearts and minds" and sacrificing our troops because sacrifice to them is viewed as a virtue.

 

I'll get to the economic issue here a sec, you touch on it in your next post.

 

But the best thing to do, ironically is to just hold out until the next person is elected and to get involved so the right people can be elected.

 

I've been quietly simmering for quite a while now. When Bush announced several thousand more troops (over and above the additional 21,000 last month) a couple of days ago, I began to boil over. This came along with the almost daily announcement that more troops died over in that goddamned shithole.

 

Then... Today I got paid, looked at the amount of tax taken out of my check (~$450) and was basically forced to lie to the DMV about how much I paid for a used car that we put on the road today, just so I could afford to get it on the road (or else pay hundreds in sales tax). That was after I paid $2.68 a gallon for gas -- $.46 of which is TAX... Which got me thinking about Bush and Bush family oil investments, and fraud, and Halliburton, and CEO's maiking over 800 times minimum wage, and more fraud, and listening to the radio to Bush sound bites telling us to "go about our business."

 

And so I ranted.

 

And you're right. We need to teach our children what freedom really is. Not this false Bush freedom. But it may well be too late.

 

More troops could turn out to be a good thing, because maybe this will be what it takes to end this mess, granted like I said above, that they want and try to end this mess in Iraq and actually get to the main point here -- ending Islamic terrorism as threat to the citizens of the U.S.

 

But as I said, you touched main point about the economy -- the taxes, and the spending. The Republicans are usually casted as being "pro-free-market" yet, they spend like crazy when elected to office, making them no better then the Democrats when it comes to economic issues. They debate about things like health-care, but not against it, just how to go about doing it, but they still do it. Bush has spent tons of money on health care programs, education (No Child Left Behind), welfare (faith-based iniatives), Social Security, passing anti-business regulation like Sarbanes-Oxley, hiking up interest rates and weakening the dollar to the point where it's incredibly difficult for people to save. If Bush was a Democrat, and did the same things, the Democrats and "the Left" would love him.

 

All this spending hurts the economy, and yet Republicans and Democrats alike just go through with it. The one thing he may be doing right, the War on Terror, is seemingly the only problem the left really has with Bush, and only because he's a Republican.

 

That's the ridiculousness of this whole thing too.

 

There is alot of talk about freedoms here and how Bush is killing people's rights. Which is partly true but the blame doesn't solely rest on Bush either. Both parties are killing your rights, but each has it's own reason/agenda for doing so. In the economic sphere, peoples rights are being violated the most, and yet this is the most ignored. Like you said and Burned pointed out -- it's about the taxes.

 

Taxes infringe on your right to spend your money as you see fit. Health-care programs infringe on the rights of the doctors to do their job to the best of their abilities, making them slaves to the States and infringing the rights of the patient, forcing them to get health-care they can't afford normally because the government in the health care market artifically raises the costs and thus the prices of it. You can't get good health care because of them and then they make you get the shitty services they themselves made.

 

It infringes on your freedom to take care of your body as you see fit and are willing able too.

 

The same applies for education too. Things like No Child Left behind busts your wallet and blow up in the face of everyone as a huge failure. That's money you aren't getting back and once again infringes on your rights. Not to mention letting tons of kids go under educated, which just proves how effective the governmet-run schools are in the first place.

 

The thing about CEOs making 800 times the minimum wage doesn't infringe on your rights or freedoms at all. It's no problem for you in most cases. In fact it's a good thing because alot of that money is reinvested into the economy which in the end improves your standard of living. CEOs making alot of money is not a problem you for us, politicians sitting on their asses, restricting our freedoms and getting paid by us to do it IS a problem.

 

 

 

On a related topic I think people have Bush-a-phobia, an irrational fear/hatred of Bush. They blame everything on Bush and act as if he's goddamn Lex Luthor. Bush is a lousy president, but hardly an evil tyrant like the far Left seems to want to believe him to be. From from the great tough cowboy crusader Christian the far Right believe him to be either. I think it's sick that they can rant about Bush and turn around and call monsters like Chavez heros.

 

This is one of my favorite articles dealing with the far Right, I think most of you would like to read it and can learn alot from it.

 

I know most of you aren't going to agree with me, but i'll speak my mind anyways, until I get banned or decide it's not worth my time.

[Vigile]

The biggest problem as I see it is not Bush, but the people that elected him twice. Everything he has done was obvious even before his first election and absolutely apparent prior to his second. Talk of stolen elections isn't even really valid. If close to 50% of the country wouldn't support taking it in the ass by their government then this would never be an issue.

And now you know *exactly* how all the conservatives felt in 1996 after Clinton's re-election. And I do mean exactly.

 

So if both sides of the political spectrum think that the biggest problem in the country is the other half of the population, how exactly would you 'fix' that? What one side sees as flaws or outright abuse of power by a party the other side sees as perfectly legal and even beneficial.

 

Sorry Trashy, I missed this yesterday.

 

First, I did not agree with Clinton's abuses of power either. I worked hard protesting the war in Kosovo for instance. And you would be hard pressed showing that I support most policies proffered by the democratic party. That said, the abuses of power that have taken place under the current admin pale in comparison to Ruby Ridge and Waco. Those were symbols that provided a focal point of anger for those who hated the man, but they weren't representative of a larger program of power abuse. He didn't spy on the entire population, abuse the right to free speech, to assemble, and spend the economy into oblivion.

 

I would say that the half that was so utterly afraid of Clinton and who is now so utterly afraid of some obscure foreign threat that they are willing to give up their own and my rights, that this half is and was wrong.

 

As for fixing it? I wouldn't be so bold as to offer a solution. I have long ago realized that I have none that will work. There is no perfect system and there never will be. Not for the group anyway. I've found a solution that works for the individual though; me in particular. I don't want to be taxed to pay for wars I vehemently don't support. I don't want to live in a culture that is full of religious zealots with no taste and who froth at the mouth when jingoisms are uttered. I don't wish these folks harm, I just don't want to be around them. My fix then is to not live around them.

 

And for the record, I'm sure they are just as glad to be rid of me.

[trashy]

That said, the abuses of power that have taken place under the current admin pale in comparison to Ruby Ridge and Waco. Those were symbols that provided a focal point of anger for those who hated the man, but they weren't representative of a larger program of power abuse. He didn't spy on the entire population, abuse the right to free speech, to assemble, and spend the economy into oblivion.

Don't forget the 'jack-boots' who snatched Elian Gonzalez. And while in retrospect those incidents were *not* part of a broader policy (like the Patriot Act) the fear they stirred up in the 'other half' of America was very real, very palpable. This is why, when Gordon Liddy could state on the air "If the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms insists upon a firefight, give them a firefight. Just remember, they're wearing flak jackets and you're better off shooting for the head" his listeners just nodded in agreement. The mistrust and fear was every bit as strong as it is in those who fear Bush.

 

Personal aside - I have never once feared the Patriot Act. While I can see its potential for abuse, and have indeed heard of some examples, it does not profile or target me in any way. Perhaps if I was a 3rd generation Arab-American I might have a different viewpoint. But regardless of Bush' power-plays the result was never fear. This does not mean I favor it in full, but I've never been a big fan of laws full of loopholes that criminally-minded people regularly step through. Perhaps this could be discussed in another thread?

 

I would say that the half that was so utterly afraid of Clinton and who is now so utterly afraid of some obscure foreign threat that they are willing to give up their own and my rights, that this half is and was wrong.

Could you, perhaps, lay out for me some of these rights that have been given up? I hear the charge a lot, but I have not yet been able to find details.

 

FYI, in the not too distant past I spent a good deal of time researching the idea of slowly but surely moving my money offshore, hiding it in various illegal accounts, and then eventually moving to Belize (Russia never entered my mind!), all to avoid the heavy-handed taxation that *most* governments rely on. I'm a big fan of the 'sovereign citizen' concept. I'm glad you seem to have made it work.

[Vigile]

it does not profile or target me in any way.

 

This is how most feel about it. It's the slippery slope that worries me. I'm sure my years of studying the former Soviet Union causes me to fear the worst more than most. I urge you to read Solzhenitsyn though. Russians also poo pooed their government's policy even as Stalin was doing his worst. Alexander S, after being arrested, sat in a jail cell for days thinking that it was all just a misunderstanding and that the government would eventually clear things up and clear him.

 

I urge you to be very careful with offshore accounts. It's almost impossible to pull off. It doesn't matter how fool proof it looks, they will almost surely get you eventually. Panama is now one of countries that protects privacy more than most. What happens if they have a regime change the way that Bermuda and so many other havens did? The IRS will then move in and go through all those records that were considered private.

 

The only way to do it is to figure out how to get a second passport and open an account with it. That, or open the account in the name of a foreign citizen whom you are willing to trust with your savings; probably not an easy endeavor.

 

Rights lost:

 

Most are de facto as the courts have been either ignored or bypassed.

 

Right to assemble: Heard of "free speech zones"?

4th Amendment Search and Seizure: NSA wiretapping.

Free speech: those who critique the admin have been harrassed and intimidated by the Secret Service and other Fed agencies.

 

Non US rights:

 

The US now thumbs its nose at Geneva and tortures its prisoners. Guantanimo is nothing. What about the formerly secret interrogation camps in E Europe?

 

The US has invaded an automous foreign country who did not provoke them in any way shape or form. The US is threatening to do this a second time.

 

Maybe it's just me, but these things seem to go beyond the symbolic threats (which I think were important and valid in their own rights) of Waco, Ruby Ridge, and even Gonzalez. Actually, I think the Gonzalez case is especially important as it shows the government's willingness to deny a US citizen all constitutional rights simply by slapping a terrorist label on him.

 

Which leads me to perhaps the most important rights that have been abused, the Military Act. This act allows the government to label any citizen a terrorist and once they have done so, they can do what they did to Gonzalez, deny him all rights - to an attorney, to a quick and speedy trial, etc..., etc... Any person with this label can just stand accused and be incarcerated indefinately without repreive. That is frightening.

[trashy]

I urge you to be very careful with offshore accounts. It's almost impossible to pull off. It doesn't matter how fool proof it looks, they will almost surely get you eventually. Panama is now one of countries that protects privacy more than most. What happens if they have a regime change the way that Bermuda and so many other havens did? The IRS will then move in and go through all those records that were considered private.

I probably could have been a good criminal because I'm fairly intelligent and a bit crafty. I thought through a lot of those possibilities and eventually abandoned them as too unreliable, not to mention trusting foreign agents with my money. I eventually resolved to simply move my *source* of income to foreign sources, which provides up to $70,000/year U.S. income-tax-free. Even this plan was put on hold indefinitely, but I wouldn't be surprised to find myself spending a lot of my retirement years outside the states. I still chafe at the fact that I am not allowed to invest in foreign stock markets over the internet!

 

Rights lost:

 

Most are de facto as the courts have been either ignored or bypassed.

 

Right to assemble: Heard of "free speech zones"?

4th Amendment Search and Seizure: NSA wiretapping.

Free speech: those who critique the admin have been harrassed and intimidated by the Secret Service and other Fed agencies.

But those are most certainly not unique to the current administration. Bush has certainly increased use of the NSA, but the conservative underground was rife with stories of SS intimidation during the Clinton years. I will also point out that the first free speech zones were during Vietnam War protests, and that the 1988 Democrat Convention used them in Atlanta. Again, Bush may be expanding their use and pushing legal boundaries, but he's hardly the first to use them.

 

Non US rights:

 

The US now thumbs its nose at Geneva and tortures its prisoners. Guantanimo is nothing. What about the formerly secret interrogation camps in E Europe?

I recently heard news correspondents discussing water-boarding as an effective interrogation technique. Slippery slope indeed! But hey, as long as they only use it on known terrorists..............???

 

Which leads me to perhaps the most important rights that have been abused, the Military Act. This act allows the government to label any citizen a terrorist and once they have done so, they can do what they did to Gonzalez, deny him all rights - to an attorney, to a quick and speedy trial, etc..., etc... Any person with this label can just stand accused and be incarcerated indefinately without repreive. That is frightening.

I'm not sure which Gonzalez you are referring to, but I did hear an interview on NPR with the author of a book about this topic. Again, I have no problem with it in general, but how do we know we are kidnapping and interrogating the right people?

 

Unfortunately I've been reading a lot of Noam Chomsky and have lost most of the remaining respect I had left for our government. Also, you might want to pick up a copy of Charlie Wilson's War. Basically, while Congress was trying to shut down the whole Contra funding scenario one lone Congressman and one CIA agent managed to *legally* funnel a few billion dollars to the mujahideen in Afghanistan while teaching them to do to the Soviet army pretty much what is now happening to our army in Iraq. It's foolish to think that the weapons and techniques didn't spread. Where do you think Osama bin Laden got all of his training? Why do you think he was in Afghanistan when we went looking for him? But that's probably a whole 'nother thread....

[Lightbearer]

Personal aside - I have never once feared the Patriot Act. While I can see its potential for abuse, and have indeed heard of some examples, it does not profile or target me in any way. Perhaps if I was a 3rd generation Arab-American I might have a different viewpoint. But regardless of Bush' power-plays the result was never fear. This does not mean I favor it in full, but I've never been a big fan of laws full of loopholes that criminally-minded people regularly step through. Perhaps this could be discussed in another thread?

 

Same here, I know it doesn't effect me too much, even though it has pontential for abuse. But so does the Federal Reserve and the IRS and they abuse their power on a daily basis. I haven't heard of any abuses so far. Plus, it would be impossible to keep abuses away from the public eye, because if it was being used to harm innocent civilians, someone, somewhere in the half-million people who work for the government will blow the lid on it.

 

Congress is in a bad habit of writting vague laws they are easily abused if a clever person comes along. That's something they need to work on, and not just letting the courts deal with the messes they create.

 

 

FYI, in the not too distant past I spent a good deal of time researching the idea of slowly but surely moving my money offshore, hiding it in various illegal accounts, and then eventually moving to Belize (Russia never entered my mind!), all to avoid the heavy-handed taxation that *most* governments rely on. I'm a big fan of the 'sovereign citizen' concept. I'm glad you seem to have made it work.

 

That's something most everyone seems to be able to agree on -- less taxes the better.

[Lightbearer]

That's something most everyone seems to be able to agree on -- less taxes the better.

 

HELL FUCKIN' HOLY SHIT DAMN STRAIT YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Well, most everyone.

 

This is one of the fundamental reasons I have a problem with the government spending, it means more tax money out of my pocket and more time and money I have to spend because of the bad effects that are passed along to the economy.

 

Right now most of the governments seem to be on this spending spree, I remember there was this big deal a few months ago about Nancy Pelosi getting a brand new jet to carry her around the country, it was pretty expensive. It pissed me off because that's money that could go to paying our troops better and taking better care of our veterans -- a problem pointed out a few weeks ago about the horriable conditions were in the veterans hospitals.