Manipulation and Coercion in Church

[Mythra]

You know, aside from the bible discrepancies, one of the HUGE problems I had with Christianity was in the churches themselves, and how manipulative they were.

 

In the last church I was in, they had a Bible Study thing based on a book "Experiencing God" written by a dude named Blackaby. One of the things taught in this study is that until you trust God to do the impossible, you aren't really trusting God.

 

So this church got on this big kick that we were on the verge of a mighty work of God. They were making plans for building a new, bigger sanctuary, acquiring the lots on both sides of the Church, establishing a full time Christian school, and getting ready to accomodate this mighty work.

 

The stupid thing was, on it's BEST day, this church was only half full of people. Over and over again, they brought up the "fact" that we had outgrown this church. So they kept hammering away on everyone of how important it was to give over and above your normal tithe, even if it meant cutting your finances short.

 

On one Sunday, the pastor said: "OK, now, with every head bowed down, no one looking around, I want to see a show of hands of who all is willing to support us in this effort. No one looking around now." So of course, everyone raised their hands. I mean, who wanted to admit that they weren't onboard? Then he said, "ok, now everyone who raised their hands, I want you to come down front to publicly commit to what you've just agreed to"

 

Then, the SOB had the gall that evening to preach a fire and brimstone sermon about making promises to God and not honoring them.

 

Just thinkin about it makes me want to break something.

 

There. I feel better now.

[thomas]

You know, aside from the bible discrepancies, one of the HUGE problems I had with Christianity was in the churches themselves, and how manipulative they were.

 

In the last church I was in, they had a Bible Study thing based on a book "Experiencing God" written by a dude named Blackaby.  One of the things taught in this study is that until you trust God to do the impossible, you aren't really trusting God.

 

So this church got on this big kick that we were on the verge of a mighty work of God.  They were making plans for building a new, bigger sanctuary, acquiring the lots on both sides of the Church, establishing a full time Christian school, and getting ready to accomodate this mighty work.

 

The stupid thing was, on it's BEST day, this church was only half full of people.  Over and over again, they brought up the "fact" that we had outgrown this church.  So they kept hammering away on everyone of how important it was to give over and above your normal tithe, even if it meant cutting your finances short.

 

On one Sunday, the pastor said:  "OK, now, with every head bowed down, no one looking around, I want to see a show of hands of who all is willing to support us in this effort.  No one looking around now."  So of course, everyone raised their hands.  I mean, who wanted to admit that they weren't onboard?  Then he said, "ok, now everyone who raised their hands, I want you to come down front to publicly commit to what you've just agreed to"

 

Then, the SOB had the gall that evening to preach a fire and brimstone sermon about making promises to God and not honoring them.

 

Just thinkin about it makes me want to break something.  

 

There.  I feel better now.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Oh yes, making preparations for a fantastic future. It seems, that churches always have to motivate their people with this and that new project in order to keep them on board. When preachers are talking about the great work of God, they either talk about what God has done in the past, or what God is about to do, or what God is doing right now in some foreign country.

 

Your post reminds me of something I saw on Christian television years ago. A preachers asked all the Christians in the congregations to raise their hands. And then he pointed at a young guy, who hadn't his hands raised, and told him to come forward because the Lord was calling.

 

The worst thing is, that this young guy acutally did come forward

[Ouroboros]

I've had a similar experience, or maybe even two or more.

 

The bow down your heads

Raise your hands for "whatever"

Now everyone that raised their hands come up to the front.

 

Yuk!

[Mythra]

I just wish one time someone would have the balls to stand up and say (loudly) "you know what, I've had ENOUGH of this shit" and walk out.

 

But no one ever does. They don't call em sheep for nothing.

[Ouroboros]

He he

 

Bah! Bah! Baal is lard! Ooops, wrong church...

[nirrti]

In the church I grew up in, they had a really good method of extortion. The congregation decided, after the pastor suggested it, to have a financial report that listed every member's name and whatever amount of money they gave that year.

 

The bad part about it was the pastor pretended that he was against the idea yet he was the one who brought it up in the first place. Then he talked about how these big churches are doing the same thing, which suggested whatever they did, we should automatacly follow suit.

 

The congregation ultimately voted yes to the proposal. So anyone who didn't pay enough tithes and offerings risked public embarrassment when people saw their name and donations in plain view. I guess a person's choice of how much to give is no longer between them and God anymore.

[Ouroboros]

In the church I grew up in, they had a really good method of extortion.  The congregation decided, after the pastor suggested it,  to have a financial report that listed every member's name and whatever amount of money they gave that year.

 

The bad part about it was the pastor pretended that he was against the idea yet he was the one who brought it up in the first place.  Then he talked about how these big churches are doing the same thing which suggested whatever they did, we should automaticly follow suit.

 

The congregation ultimately voted yes to the proposal.  So anyone who didn't pay enough tithes and offerings risked public embarrassment when people saw their name and donations in plain view.  I guess a person's choice of how much to give is no longer between them and God anymore.   

 

NO WAY! No way, no way!

 

How twisted!

 

They’ve must’ve been some kind of Communistic Christians?

That sounds like Soviet and Marxism attitude to me!

 

And these people were fighting against SSSR?

These religionists behave the same way!

[Lanakila]

At one church I was a member of I dragged my brother along and the pastor preached a Hellfire and Brimstone sermon. He asked everyone that was saved to raise their hands, and then the ones that couldn't raise their hands he thanked for being honest and asked them to look at him. My brother looked at him and the pastor begged him to come forward as he knew he was lost. My brother did make a profession of faith that day, that never seemed to take. (good for him)

[Eponymic]

are you fucking kidding me?  If someone did that the entire church would be on them like white on rice trying to exorcise the demon. 

 

Is it Uncle Ben's rice or Rice-a-roni?

 

Cause I'd be on em' to if its rice-a-roni.

 

[thomas]

NO WAY! No way, no way!

 

How twisted!

 

They’ve must’ve been some kind of Communistic Christians?

That sounds like Soviet and Marxism attitude to me!

 

And these people were fighting against SSSR?

These religionists behave the same way!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well, the word communism is in family with the word community. As far as I remember, Christians were involved in some of the early socialist ideas in Europe.

 

But nevertheless, here is an interesting article pointing out some of the similarities between Christianity and Communism.

 

The Atheist Alliance Web Center | The Library

[fallenleaf]

lol, I remember one glowing example of manipulation that I dealt with. Even when I was "playing the game" I refused to become a member of the church. Technically, at 16 or something you were eligible to join the church. You went through a couple of courses about the theology of the church and did a bunch of other minor shit. Eventually you made some lame commitment to it being your church or what-not. As much as I feared being "out," I drew my line in the sand at that point. I would never be a member of the church. It was not on option... It was nothing I was going to even consider.

 

So, I become "able" to be a member. And the new-members courses lessons come and I manage to avoid signing up for them. A couple months later they come again... and I avoid them. This went on for almost a year before the pastor himself approached me. Over the year, I had been "appointed" positions in the various youth oriented programs. Which means I was basically told that I was responsible for such and such. The pastor came and informed me that if I wanted to remain in these positions, I really needed to be a member of the church. I didn't even want to be doing the jobs... so I politely informed him that I would consider stepping down from those positions until I felt comfortable joining the church. That alone was a huge breech of proper behavior. The good Christian wouldn't have even had second thoughts about it... they would have pretended that they had just overlooked the members program.

 

This slipped a disk for the pastor. He hadn't planned on that option. He would be losing a sound tech, a youth leader, an assistant commander in the boys program (really the only acting commander -- but as I was a minor I could not be a full commander), and the other various odd jobs I performed. So he back-tracked. He told me that I could remain in those positions while I waited for God to show me that I should be a member. I accepted that... and thus missed another round of membership classes.

 

A few months later, the membership classes roll around again. This time, from the pulpit on Sunday morning, he gave the following 'command:' "I want all those people in leadership positions to show their dedication to this church by coming down to the front and committing to taking the membership course." Now, it was fairly common knowledge that I was the only person in this situation. So half the church is looking at me... he's looking at me... he makes the command again... and I'm just sitting there. The church is dead silent. And he was kindof stuck because there was no way he could ignore my refusal to come down. If there had been another person he could have moved on and pretended I didn't exist. But as I was the only one, it looked really bad for him. Those who didn't know what was going on saw that those in leadership positions weren't going to stand up and show their commitment. Eventually, three of the people who were already members went to the front and the service went on. It was a very uncomfortable 5-6 minutes.

 

My name was mud for several months after that. To those who asked, I just said that I felt a call to become a member but the heavy-handed manner in which that was done had been a sign for that that God wanted me to wait. Most accepted that... still they thought I was weird.

 

I managed to never become a member of that church. After his little stunt from the pulpit the bastard refused to ever talk to me again. I mean EVER... so nothing more was said and I remained in the positions I was in. Although, I would have preferred to be removed from them. That's the most obvious manipulation I can recall at the moment. Of course, as my youth pastor always said, "You don't push Eric. He's a knuckle-head. The harder you push him the more committed to staying put he becomes." Sadly, that youth pastor left right before this pastor had come in... so he hadn't heard that little tidbit of information.

[Mythra]

Dominae dominae I hereby declare that I have a new god. And Eric, you are it.

 

You got some impressive titanium stones.

 

 

I was too mamby-pamby. They wanted me to be the music leader, but I wasn't a member. So, I figured, sure, what the hell?

 

So, the initiation rites were that you stood up at the front with the pastor - and of course, I dragged my poor wife through this shit too. So anyway, you stood up front and did this pledge thing that you promised to provide all of your talents for the good of the body, yada yada yada. In exchange, the people in the church pledged to support you, pray for you, etc. The pastor called this a "covenent relationship"

 

Now that I've left, once in awhile someone still calls me to let me know that they are honoring THEIR part of covenant. I politely tell them thank you. Then I think: eat shit and die.

[fallenleaf]

You got some impressive titanium stones.

 

Not that impressive... I managed to get put in all those positions without too much argument. The only real change was that I had decided beforehand where I stood on that position. I never said to myself, "Hey self, if they ask you to prepare a short sermon... say no."

 

Yeah, I never was good when it came to offically joining anything. So getting me up to the front to pledge my commitment would be hard. And I am most certainly a stubborn fool... the more pressure I feel being put on me to move in a direction, the harder my brakes are applied. At that moment, if I had wanted to be a member I still wouldn't have found myself able to stand up and go down there.

 

The youth pastor, Pastor B, learned it over a course of a couple years. The church was overtly manipulative a lot of the time and I worked very hard at ignoring messages which came too forcefully for my own liking. Eventually Pastor B came to respect me for that and learned to be up-front and compassionate toward me. Who says old pastors can't be taught new tricks. But after that, he never failed to joke about my strong will. He called me "iron head" for a long time... it eventually mutated into my nickname "Jug" (long long series of mutuations).

 

He was not a bad guy... for being the overbearing jerk that he usually was. But compared to the rest of the assholes in charge he was a saint.

[Mythra]

Not that impressive... I managed to get put in all those positions without too much argument.  The only real change was that I had decided beforehand where I stood on that position.  I never said to myself, "Hey self, if they ask you to prepare a short sermon... say no."

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Thy cannot break my will in this. I stand firm in my convictions. Yet will I praise thy name, O Jug of the iron will.

[Ouroboros]

Yea! Hark ye all heathens! Eric got the brass ones! Hail Eric!

 

Pretty cool Eric. You earned the respect.

[Ouroboros]

I used to work for a "Christian" company, and once they had a meeting everyone had to attend, and if you didn't or couldn't then it was said "You don't support the company and vision." In my opinion that was mucho bullcrap, but I went anyway. You see, I'm not like Eric.

[fallenleaf]

LOL... seriously guys. That was one time... I can't even begin to number the times I just went with the flow.

 

 

I am no ideal person... just a stubborn fuck sometimes.

 

For example, I worked for a Tow Company... and the owner was a Christian. Once in a while he asked if I would pray with him... and I always did. It was bullshit. Why would I do it? Because I didn't want to lose the job and he thought I was a Christian. I was very manipulated in that job because, although it was never said, my employment was based on my beliefs.

[Ouroboros]

Doesn't it strike you as totally wrong for people to have "Christian" Companies? How can a Company be Christian? Did the Company ask Jesus to come into its heart or something?

 

"Look, I got a born again company!"

[chefranden]

Doesn't it strike you as totally wrong for people to have "Christian" Companies? How can a Company be Christian? Did the Company ask Jesus to come into its heart or something?

 

"Look, I got a born again company!"

 

Legally speaking Coporations are persons in the US. So I suppose they could be christian, maybe even saved?

[Godless Wonder]

Legally speaking Coporations are persons in the US.  So I suppose they could be christian, maybe even saved?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 prohibits workplace discrimination based on religion, national origin, race, color, or sex. If a business hires only Christians, and does not hire qualified non-Christians who apply, that is illegal, AFAICT, but IANAL.

[Ouroboros]

"Blessed be the meek company, because it will see heaven."

[Cerise]

Our camp used to have "alter calls" all the time, where the pastor would ask people to put their hands up who "wanted to have a better relationship with JESUS" and then call those who had hands up to the front.

 

Or we'd have to close our eyes and then put up our hands if we thought we had sinned in the past few days. And of course, everyone had to put their hands up otherwise you'd be bombarded with questions from the youth leaders about how no one is exempt from sinning and everyone is stained blah blah you worthless hunks of dirt just put your frikken hand up already.

 

I remember after one sermon, on the horrifying wasteland of hell that all unsaved were destined to go to, one of the girls in our cabin just lost it. Selah, I think her name was. She just collapsed, all hysterical because her brother was non-christian and refused to be "saved". She told us how she had done everything she could think of to make him become christian but he wouldn't and now he was gonna burn and oh god what should she do?

 

I remember a bunch of youth leaders descending on her to give her "tips" on what she should say to this derelict, unsaved brother, tips on how she could manipulate or scare or guilt him into becoming christian. It was sickening. And I could tell she didn't feel one bit better by the end of it.

 

So later, I saw her hanging around the trail towards our cabin, just wandering and with this striken expression. And I knew I had to speak to her but I couldn't think of any conversion "tips" and I didn't really want to give her those anyway. So we just walked together and she told me about her older brother, what he looks like, what he sounds like, how he acts, what he does, etc. And by the end of it, I was thinking about my own brother, and how much it would scare me if I thought he wouldn't be with me, safe and happy, in the afterlife.

 

So I found something to say. "Selah, if god loves your brother even half as much as you do, he won't even get near hell. Not a chance."

 

And that thought, as heretical as it probably was for me during that time, made us both feel better.

[Guest Gypsy]

when i left church at the end, it was the manipulation thing that did it. we were at the local ass of god church and the brownsville revival was going strong in florida. our church sent bus loads of people down there so they could bring the revival back for the rest of us. it wasn't happening tho. i was scared for my kids in the junior church... had heard the stories of kids in schools from florida that were so messed up they had to be sent home (messed up in the spirit). for weeks i'd spend the whole service time praying that the leaders in the next room wouldn't be able to infect my kids.

 

i don't know if it is that whole AOG denomination or what, but the assembly we were in was nothing but a frickin roller coaster. a couple months of this, a couple months of that. i had gotten tired of it and requested my name off the membership list (at which the pastor told me i was putting myself in great spiritual peril). we did start off at that church participating fully, but we lost alot of money and god didn't pay us back like he was supposed to, and god didn't answer our prayers like he promised, and well.... eventually we realized it was a big game.

 

but now this brownsville stuff... this was the last morning i attended. the pastor had come back from a week down in florida and he was falling over himself half 'drunk' and hanging onto the pulpit for dear life. at the end of the message he asked for everyone to bow their heads and then we were supposed to raise our hands if we would be on board for whatever god wanted for us. i knew his definition of whatever god wanted was for us to finally be like the brownsville-ites, so i refused to raise my hand. even tho it would seem like an innocuous question....experience showed most things here were nothing but manipulation.

 

he started getting angry and talking about people who hinder the spirit in the service, and people who pray against the spirit, blah blah blah. so i looked up to find him on my side of the stage angrily glaring at me during this tirade.

 

i was thinking how anyone visiting would think that all of us there supported the craziness, when all of us didn't. maybe they would have been manipulated by the sheer numbers of presumed participants. that was the last service i ever attended.

 

i never got along with christians even when i was one because i hated their stupid games and usually said so. during 'invitations' i had long since stopped raising my hand to say i was saved. that was actually pretty fun, because sometimes you get some speaker who tries to rephrase and rephrase and rephrase his questions to get a raise for at least something out of me and whoever else before he realized that not everyone was participating in the game.

[Ouroboros]

I recognize that game playing that was going on in our church too. When there was prayer for people, there was always the “laying hands” ritual. But not only the ritual had to be there, if you didn’t fall “from the power of the Holy Ghost”, then you didn’t receive anything.

 

During some time I had start feeling that most of this “falling in the spirit”, was nothing but self induced by the participants of the “game”. So I decided I wanted the real thing, and next time I would fight against the “power”, and wait for the Holy Spook to really knock me down.

 

So the next time, when I was up there to get anointed, I was fighting back to fall, even though the preachers hand was heavy on my head. The preacher started to pray louder and press harder, and I started to feel he was pushing me. At one point he did push me, and I fell over because I lost my balance. Now that was not the Holy Spook, so every time after that, I just refused to fall. And many times the preacher would push and push until you fell, because it was the ultimate proof that God was there. But to me, it started to look more faked by the minute.

[Guest Gypsy]

yeh, i wish they could have just been upfront about it all

they get caught in their own stuff. your preacher had to know it was him and not the h.g. or it's like the h.g. is a bully, and if you don't fall it's gonna push you down. the first time i was in the a.o.g. church when someone came in to do that to us i didn't fall either. the guy kept trying and trying. my row was in the back of the church and most everyone was already on the floor. the usher behind me said quietly that it was fine, you were allowed to fall on purpose and that he would catch me. so i did. i don't know where the logic is in all of that. once they tell people that, and deliberately pushing like they did to you, how can they feel anymore that any of it is real?