Manipulation and Coercion in Church

[fallenleaf]

I never fell... EVER... I refused to fake it and demanded nothing less than the spirit of God himself knocking me down. I had them try everything... pushing... firm slap on the forehead... blowing their stinky breath in my face (that nearly did it a couple times... yuk)... etc. I was told it was okay and that I needed to allow myself to fall. Which was bullshit and I refused to listen to them say that. I tried very hard as a believer (and a few times as a non-believer) to see if it could be done to me. I was often very aware that something was going on (I later discovered that this was an altered state of consciousness) but had trained my mind to not allow me to fall for anything less than God himself.

 

Needless to say, this was another area where God never bothered to come. I would be the only person standing near the altar at the end... hands up, rocking back and forth, and clearly moved... but still standing. I'm sure that drove people nuts to no end... but I refused to fake it, I refused to take a dive for the holy spirit.

 

No one ever commented on it, besides the comments that I had to allow myself to fall -- which was really telling me I should pretend to fall or something.

[Vigile]

I never fell...  EVER... I refused to fake it and demanded nothing less than the spirit of God himself knocking me down.  I had them try everything... pushing... firm slap on the forehead... blowing their stinky breath in my face (that nearly did it a couple times... yuk)... etc.  I was told it was okay and that I needed to allow myself to fall.  Which was bullshit and I refused to listen to them say that.

 

 

I'm with you Eric. I once went to my grandparent's AOG pastor for some personal advice (can't recall what it was now) and he insisted that I needed to get the holy ghost baptism going. I went along for the ride and let him pray over me. He kept coaching me to just say whatever came to my mouth; just let it flow. He even tried to get me to repeat some nonsense after him to get the ball rolling. I refused. I figured if it was from god then it would come without effort on my part. I wasn't going to fake it. Later I told my mom about it and she admitted faking it herself when she was a teenager.

 

Long story short, he told me I needed to go off by myself for a few days - or as long as it takes - to pray for the b of hg. I gave it a shot for a few hours I think but quickly got bored. Perhaps I should have taken some peyote first, I would have gotten a better response.

[bob]

When I was a good Baptist, I tithed every two weeks (pay day) by writing a check to the church. One day, I came to the conclusion that, what I gave to the church was my business, between me and god, so I stopped writing checks, and put cash in the plate. A couple weeks later, one of the deacons (henchmen) approached me and expressed the pastors concern for my spiritual well-being since I had stopped tithing. I admit I was surprised.

I stopped tithing soon after that.

[fallenleaf]

When I was a good Baptist, I tithed every two weeks (pay day) by writing a check to the church.  One day, I came to the conclusion that, what I gave to the church was my business, between me and god, so I stopped writing checks, and put cash in the plate.  A couple weeks later, one of the deacons (henchmen) approached me and expressed the pastors concern for my spiritual well-being since I had stopped tithing.  I admit I was surprised. 

I stopped tithing soon after that.

 

I did tithe when I believed, which when your income is mostly from lawn mowing is a big deal. I always gave loose cash even though we had the envelopes to put our name on. Like you, I figured what I gave was my own business. One of the reasons they wanted me on the official membership list is because it required a pledge to support the church with my tithes -- thus making my accountable to them and giving them a reason to hassle me about how much I was giving. Of course, at that point I didn't believe so I was giving jack squat... but just because their impressions happened to be correct did not make it right.

 

As a side note: My mother insisted I tithe 10% of my income. This was later when I didn't believe and I was working in a food store. So I would make a point about setting it aside when I got paid to put it in the offering at church. It actually ended up in an envelope in the back of my desk. I sat apart from her so she never saw if I was actually putting it in or not. At one point I bought a new truck (~$700 -- it was a cheap beater) completely with cash... it was my tithe cash. If my mom ever figured out how I managed to have nearly a thousand dollars laying about in cash... she never said a thing to me.

[Japedo]

A few months later, the membership classes roll around again.  This time, from the pulpit on Sunday morning, he gave the following 'command:'  "I want all those people in leadership positions to show their dedication to this church by coming down to the front and committing to taking the membership course."  Now, it was fairly common knowledge that I was the only person in this situation.  So half the church is looking at me... he's looking at me... he makes the command again... and I'm just sitting there.  The church is dead silent.  And he was kindof stuck because there was no way he could ignore my refusal to come down.  If there had been another person he could have moved on and pretended I didn't exist.  But as I was the only one, it looked really bad for him.  Those who didn't know what was going on saw that those in leadership positions weren't going to stand up and show their commitment.  Eventually, three of the people who were already members went to the front and the service went on.  It was a very uncomfortable 5-6 minutes.

 

My name was mud for several months after that.  To those who asked, I just said that I felt a call to become a member but the heavy-handed manner in which that was done had been a sign for that that God wanted me to wait.  Most accepted that... still they thought I was weird.

 

 

 

What an Inspiring Story! I admire your stamina to be able to just sit there as 'peer pressure ' was being applied to you publicly, Thanks for sharing your story of flipping the guilt trip on them.

[pandora]

Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 prohibits workplace discrimination based on religion, national origin, race, color, or sex.  If a business hires only Christians, and does not hire qualified non-Christians who apply, that is illegal, AFAICT, but IANAL.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Doesn't that only apply to gov't employees? At least that is what I was taught.

[fallenleaf]

Doesn't that only apply to gov't employees?  At least that is what I was taught.

 

The discriminations laws only apply to companies with more than a certain number of employees.

 

Edit: Here is a reference to that... I wish I had a better reference but I don't.

 

http://www.allinfo.net/wylielaw/employment.html

Title VII Prohibits discrimination in employment based on race, color, religion, sex and national origin. This law applies to public sector employers, as well as private sector employers who employ at least 15 employees (those with fewer than 15 are usually covered by state law).

 

Oh, and Florida state law (Statute 760.10.1.a, 760.10.2, and others) does prohibit it for any employer. But they'll just say you were fired for another reason.

[chefranden]

He kept coaching me to just say whatever came to my mouth; just let it flow.

 

Wouldn't it be fun to have this oportunity again.

 

Pastor: Just say what ever comes to your mouth.

 

Sinner: Really?

 

Pastor: Yes!

 

Sinner: Ok --- holy fucking Ralph! Don't foget to get milk on the way home. Suzy's got hot buns. I think I'll help myself next time the plate passes. Your breath stinks.

 

Pastor: No, that sounds like English.

 

Sinner: The spirit can't speak English?

 

Pastor: No, the spirit is a foreigner.

[bluewizard]

lol, I remember one glowing example of manipulation that I dealt with.  Even when I was "playing the game" I refused to become a member of the church.  Technically, at 16 or something you were eligible to join the church.  You went through a couple of courses about the theology of the church and did a bunch of other minor shit.  Eventually you made some lame commitment to it being your church or what-not.  As much as I feared being "out," I drew my line in the sand at that point.  I would never be a member of the church.  It was not on option... It was nothing I was going to even consider.

 

So, I become "able" to be a member.  And the new-members courses lessons come and I manage to avoid signing up for them.  A couple months later they come again... and I avoid them.  This went on for almost a year before the pastor himself approached me.  Over the year, I had been "appointed" positions in the various youth oriented programs.  Which means I was basically told that I was responsible for such and such.  The pastor came and informed me that if I wanted to remain in these positions, I really needed to be a member of the church.  I didn't even want to be doing the jobs... so I politely informed him that I would consider stepping down from those positions until I felt comfortable joining the church.  That alone was a huge breech of proper behavior.  The good Christian wouldn't have even had second thoughts about it... they would have pretended that they had just overlooked the members program.

 

This slipped a disk for the pastor.  He hadn't planned on that option.  He would be losing a sound tech, a youth leader, an assistant commander in the boys program (really the only acting commander -- but as I was a minor I could not be a full commander), and the other various odd jobs I performed.  So he back-tracked.  He told me that I could remain in those positions while I waited for God to show me that I should be a member.  I accepted that... and thus missed another round of membership classes.

 

A few months later, the membership classes roll around again.  This time, from the pulpit on Sunday morning, he gave the following 'command:'  "I want all those people in leadership positions to show their dedication to this church by coming down to the front and committing to taking the membership course."  Now, it was fairly common knowledge that I was the only person in this situation.  So half the church is looking at me... he's looking at me... he makes the command again... and I'm just sitting there.  The church is dead silent.  And he was kindof stuck because there was no way he could ignore my refusal to come down.  If there had been another person he could have moved on and pretended I didn't exist.  But as I was the only one, it looked really bad for him.  Those who didn't know what was going on saw that those in leadership positions weren't going to stand up and show their commitment.  Eventually, three of the people who were already members went to the front and the service went on.  It was a very uncomfortable 5-6 minutes.

 

My name was mud for several months after that.  To those who asked, I just said that I felt a call to become a member but the heavy-handed manner in which that was done had been a sign for that that God wanted me to wait.  Most accepted that... still they thought I was weird.

 

I managed to never become a member of that church.  After his little stunt from the pulpit the bastard refused to ever talk to me again.  I mean EVER... so nothing more was said and I remained in the positions I was in.  Although, I would have preferred to be removed from them.  That's the most obvious manipulation I can recall at the moment.  Of course, as my youth pastor always said, "You don't push Eric.  He's a knuckle-head.  The harder you push him the more committed to staying put he becomes."  Sadly, that youth pastor left right before this pastor had come in... so he hadn't heard that little tidbit of information.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Why did you go to the church for? I still have to go to church cause of my Dad and I am not becoming a member of it no matter how hard any1 tries. The preacher at the church I go to seems like he has given up hope on me being "saved". he should. I am an atheist, i can't wait till a year from now hen I won't ever have to go to church again, I'll be in college. At the church I go to, all you have to do is go to the front and act "saved" and hold the preacher's hand and say a prayer, age doesn't matter. It's a Southern Baptist church so you know it's stupid how they make fun of gays and believe in stupid stuff.

[fallenleaf]

Why did you go to the church for?  I still have to go to church cause of my Dad and I am not becoming a member of it no matter how hard any1 tries.  The preacher at the church I go to seems like he has given up hope on me being "saved". he should.  I am an atheist, i can't wait till a year from now hen I won't ever have to go to church again, I'll be in college.  At the church I go to, all you have to do is go to the front and act "saved" and hold the preacher's hand and say a prayer, age doesn't matter.  It's a Southern Baptist church so you know it's stupid how they make fun of gays and believe in stupid stuff.

 

Why did I do to church? I had no options. The story is long and involved but the short form is that I absolutely could not reveal that I was a non-believer to anyone. So I went to church 5-7 days a week for most of my life. I only escaped that when I left home for college and later when my mother finally figured out my non-belief status at a point where she was powerless to control it. "Playing the game" was deadly serious to me growing up for reasons I seriously don't want to get into. If it helps, when I first tried to come out of the non-belief closet, at 21 years old, I was forced into a camp to try and reindoctrinate me back into my beliefs -- which resulted is a complete breakdown and convinced me to go back to pretending for several more years. And that is at 21... not when I was a minor and completely in the grip of things. I had options at that point and a self-assurance which I did not have at 15 or 17. Had I tried to come out at the time you talk about, the "camp" would have been the least of my worries... although even that would have been soul-destroying.

 

Me, I wasn't Southern Baptist... I wish I was. Nope, I was in a very strong pentecostal church where routine exorcisms were just a normal thing and no one thought twice about anything which happened.

[Amethyst]

Me, I wasn't Southern Baptist... I wish I was. Nope, I was in a very strong pentecostal church where routine exorcisms were just a normal thing and no one thought twice about anything which happened.

 

And I thought the Baptists were bad. Jeez. I'm glad you made it out of that particular cult.

[bluewizard]

And I thought the Baptists were bad.  Jeez.  I'm glad you made it out of that particular cult.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The Baptists try to brainwash you making you think a God talks to you. I have to go once a week every Sunday. I just listen and analyze why any1 believes in the myth. The preacher said Israel had a drought cause it "sinned", and I thought dumbass, did you ever think things happen by chance and there is no God? The members of the church never analyzed the beliefs like i do. They hardly read the Bile. In fact, Southern Baptists are some of the least religious people you'll ever meet. Some get "saved" and think I don't have to do a thing, i'm going to Heaven.

[godlessgrrl]

I don't remember any church I went to being particularly coercive while I was attending.

 

But boy, you shoulda seen the response when I filed for divorce. Hoo, doggies!

 

My first marriage was to a guy I'd known for a long time. He has a devastatingly brilliant mind and a pretty sharp, very intellectual sense of humor; but the long and the short of it is, the guy shouldn't try to have a relationship with anybody, really, because he's such an emotional retard that it's a wonder he can relate to another person socially at all. I mean really, the guy is the kind of person who really would do better in life if he were a monk. And I shouldn'ta married him.

 

In a nutshell we'd had an extremely emotionally barren marriage, almost from the day it started. (Example: 3 years or so into it, my dad had a heart attack. When the spouse came home that day and I told him, he stared at me with a blank look for a moment, then said "Oh." and then wandered into his office to log on for the rest of the evening.) I got sick of this kind of bullshit and filed for divorce nearly 4 years into it.

 

As a bit o' background here, when we first got together, I was Xian and he wasn't, and I did the fundy freakout thing about being "unequally yoked", and later he converted. We ended up being members at a Presbyterian church. Mostly it was fine. I had a crisis of faith at one point, but hadn't stopped believing; so by the time I filed for divorce I was still a believer, though a troubled one.

 

Well, not a week after I filed, one of my study group friends from church called to invite me and the spouse to dinner. I let her know that we were splitting up, but since I did like this woman I decided to go anyway, alone.

 

Turns out she'd also invited the associate pastor and his wife, as well as a couple of other study group members. The focus of the whole evening's conversation was my lousy marriage, why I was leaving, and a whole bunch of pressure not to split the marriage up. Nobody was cruel or mean about it at all, it was just a whole lot of "have you tried X?" and a bunch of stuff about god wanting me to do X, Y, or Z, or praying about it, or whatever; and a whole undercurrent of "you shouldn't be breaking up your god-contracted, holy Xian marriage". So it was just excruciating. Plus I didn't think it was a good idea to tell anybody there that I was already seeing someone else - even though we'd been separated for awhile, I'd just filed, and there's a 90-day wait period in my state... so technically I was still married. Yeah, oops!

 

NOT. Leaving that miserable marriage was one of the best decisions I ever made. But boy it sucked being the subject of dinnertime conversation for the entire evening. I mean jeez! WTF couldn't we have talked about the weather?? And of course I didn't have the cojones yet to just tell ppl not to talk about it.

 

Oh well. I ain't in that mindfuck anymore. Thank Athena Glaukopis...