God Has Hardened Your Heart.

[Antlerman]

The only church you'll be starting is The First Church of Holy Agony.

Well yes, of course. The hardness of the heart (or solidification as the trained clergy call it) is most quickly achieved through direct microwave exposure. It causes a great deal of agony, but like it says in the Good Book, "Blessed are those who suffer". The other way to achieve hardness of heart is to listen to televangelists for 72 hours straight. But the risk of that is possible insanity, and the Good Book says nothing of the feebleminded getting anything special from God.

[R. S. Martin]

Do you think "God has hardened your heart" is sort of a cop-out for the Christian? They can't convince us to believe a lie, so they save face by saying that God is hardening your heart -- so no wonder they couldn't convince us.

 

I've never heard that kind of thing from my family. I don't think they know anyone except me that does not believe in God. All they have to go by is the stereotypes of atheists floating throughout christendom. This thing about god hardening Pharaoh's heart so that he couldn't believe has always bothered me BIG TIME. Maybe everything else in the Bible can be explained away but there is no explaining that away. God did it and he did it for the very serious consequence of making Pharaoh a bad guy. That contradicts everything else in the Bible. Pretty much the same treatment is given Esau in that same chapter. One person did point out to me that it does not say that Esau and Pharaoh were condemned to hell.

 

I tried taking consolation from that but no matter how hard I twisted it to make it say that, I couldn't. In the end, it was god who did it, and god did it for very severe punishment. There is no way around that. And the injustice of that is overwhelming. To have a parent say that to a child is simply not acceptable in my book. You have every right to be seriously offended. I don't know if there is anything you can do about it but knowing that you have been mistreated is perhaps some consolation.

 

As others suggested, if you are in a position to take a hard line with your mother you can tell her that it is unacceptable. Better have a plan in mind for how you will respond in case she does not stop saying that sort of thing. In my case, I am in a position not to have contact with my family. For young people still living at home, the case is different. You can still try telling her how much it hurts you, but that would open you for any kind of sermonizing any Christian relative sees fit. (Depends whether or not your mother would keep it to herself or if she would tell everyone else.)

 

Many people, including myself, have just kept our mouths shut about our deepest convictions until an expedient time. My sisters who were closest to me could have known had they taken to heart what was behind the questions I was asking. Perhaps there would have been a greater demand on the church to come up with answers if people had taken my questions seriously.

 

The way they tended to treat my questions was to condemn me for having questions. I learned exactly how far to push my questions and of whom it was safe to ask them. I had some pretty deep conversations with some of my sisters, except that I was doing most of the talking and they were just agreeing with everything. I did not know until about a month ago that my one sister who seemed most interested did not actually think about the topics. I got a letter from her a few weeks ago where she apologized for seeming to agree when in fact she didn't.

 

Not much lost there. I did not trust her at all and had been drawing away from her. All the same, she had been seriously considering leaving the Old Order Mennonites. I guess someone has now convinced her that she had been on a "wrong path" and she has now returned to the fold in full obedience. She says she did have much peace while she was seeking outside. From that perspective, it is tragic that she gave in. If she had been as desperate as I had been, she would not have given in. Things are a lot easier for the entire family if she conforms.

 

I assume she has to find a way to deal with my apostacy. Maybe that is why she apologized; that liberates her from any responsibility because she has duly warned me. The fact of the matter is that no matter how she treated me, she is not responsible for my deconversion; she just made life a trifle easier for me because I knew there was at least one family member who loved me enough to listen to my questions.

 

Sorry, I keep rambling off in my own story. I have no idea about your situation. But know this: You are not the first and only person to be seriously rejected by family for your beliefs. It just so happens that Jesus' saying about people being persecuted for following truth applies to atheists more than Christians in our time and place.

[Jessica Sideways]

Yeah, my parents are also fundies. There is no limit to what they will say. The latest tactic from my mom in a letter was: "I apologize to you because didn't love you enough as a child", the rest of her letter was all Bible quotes. John 3:16 etc. My mother naturally thinks of herself as a worthless sinner. Too bad she has been so totally brainwashed after 45 years of fundamentalist indoctrination she doesn't realize what a fine person she is.

 

Perhaps if she had said instead "I apologize to you for forcing you to go to the Fundamentalist Baptist Church three days a week for eight plus years" then we might have gotten somewhere.

 

Note that the fundie can never admit that a person can actually make a decision, after reviewing the evidence (or lack thereof), not to accept Christianity. It always has to be another reason like "I didn't love my children enough" or "god hardened your heart." Something ridiculous like that which is totally unrelated to the facts.

 

Sorry snowlion, it does make one angry. I am dealing with it myself. This Christianity is a horrible religion.

Both Christianity and Scientology have installed numerous cop-outs in their religion. You can't question either to be a good follower. But alas, only sheep follow.

 

I suggest telling your mother flat out never do it again. The next time she does it or tries to blow you off as being too sensitive, tell her "NO. You are not brushing this off. You being incredibly rude and arrogant, and have really hurt my feelings. I am ANGRY with you and I'm not letting this pass anymore. I do not ever want to hear this ever again, do you understand?"

 

Then explain to her why. She does not get to tell you you are being too sensitive, the point is she IS hurting you with this. She can stop being insulting or she gets reprimanded. Parents have to be taught to be respectful of their adult children.

 

Or you can just say, "And God's hardened your head. End of discussion."

Yeah, Christians are hardly respectful. I had mormons come knocking at my door in the wee hours of the afternoon after trying to sleep. I had to install a sign near the door that says "NO MORMON/CHRISTIAN EVANGELISTS. VIOLATORS WILL BE BEATEN WITH A BLUNT OBJECT. SURVIVORS WILL BE PROSECUTED." That kept my doorstep pretty clean.

 

Yes! It's hard as a rock. What was it that Jesus said? Oh yeah, "Upon this rock will I build my church". There you go then... he whose heart the Lord hardens shall be saved. All these other wannabes can go suck sand.

Ah, I love the hypocrisy in the bible.

 

Well yes, of course. The hardness of the heart (or solidification as the trained clergy call it) is most quickly achieved through direct microwave exposure. It causes a great deal of agony, but like it says in the Good Book, "Blessed are those who suffer". The other way to achieve hardness of heart is to listen to televangelists for 72 hours straight. But the risk of that is possible insanity, and the Good Book says nothing of the feebleminded getting anything special from God.

Anyone who can survive the flood of crap from televangelists must have a hard heart, a hard head and a non-functional nose.

 

I've never heard that kind of thing from my family. I don't think they know anyone except me that does not believe in God. All they have to go by is the stereotypes of atheists floating throughout christendom. This thing about god hardening Pharaoh's heart so that he couldn't believe has always bothered me BIG TIME. Maybe everything else in the Bible can be explained away but there is no explaining that away. God did it and he did it for the very serious consequence of making Pharaoh a bad guy. That contradicts everything else in the Bible. Pretty much the same treatment is given Esau in that same chapter. One person did point out to me that it does not say that Esau and Pharaoh were condemned to hell.

 

I tried taking consolation from that but no matter how hard I twisted it to make it say that, I couldn't. In the end, it was god who did it, and god did it for very severe punishment. There is no way around that. And the injustice of that is overwhelming. To have a parent say that to a child is simply not acceptable in my book. You have every right to be seriously offended. I don't know if there is anything you can do about it but knowing that you have been mistreated is perhaps some consolation.

 

As others suggested, if you are in a position to take a hard line with your mother you can tell her that it is unacceptable. Better have a plan in mind for how you will respond in case she does not stop saying that sort of thing. In my case, I am in a position not to have contact with my family. For young people still living at home, the case is different. You can still try telling her how much it hurts you, but that would open you for any kind of sermonizing any Christian relative sees fit. (Depends whether or not your mother would keep it to herself or if she would tell everyone else.)

 

Many people, including myself, have just kept our mouths shut about our deepest convictions until an expedient time. My sisters who were closest to me could have known had they taken to heart what was behind the questions I was asking. Perhaps there would have been a greater demand on the church to come up with answers if people had taken my questions seriously.

 

The way they tended to treat my questions was to condemn me for having questions. I learned exactly how far to push my questions and of whom it was safe to ask them. I had some pretty deep conversations with some of my sisters, except that I was doing most of the talking and they were just agreeing with everything. I did not know until about a month ago that my one sister who seemed most interested did not actually think about the topics. I got a letter from her a few weeks ago where she apologized for seeming to agree when in fact she didn't.

 

Not much lost there. I did not trust her at all and had been drawing away from her. All the same, she had been seriously considering leaving the Old Order Mennonites. I guess someone has now convinced her that she had been on a "wrong path" and she has now returned to the fold in full obedience. She says she did have much peace while she was seeking outside. From that perspective, it is tragic that she gave in. If she had been as desperate as I had been, she would not have given in. Things are a lot easier for the entire family if she conforms.

 

I assume she has to find a way to deal with my apostacy. Maybe that is why she apologized; that liberates her from any responsibility because she has duly warned me. The fact of the matter is that no matter how she treated me, she is not responsible for my deconversion; she just made life a trifle easier for me because I knew there was at least one family member who loved me enough to listen to my questions.

 

Sorry, I keep rambling off in my own story. I have no idea about your situation. But know this: You are not the first and only person to be seriously rejected by family for your beliefs. It just so happens that Jesus' saying about people being persecuted for following truth applies to atheists more than Christians in our time and place.