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Goodbye Jesus

Christianity With No Heaven


Fweethawt

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To the Christians™ here. :scratch:

 

 

If Heaven were not part of the Christian Faith, would you still believe in it?

 

What else would have to be offered in place of Heaven for you to believe if your answer to the first question is "No."?

 

Fwee

 

 

 

Obviously, I posted this as a sister-thread to TAP's other thread. :scratch:

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Obviously, I posted this as a sister-thread to TAP's other thread. :scratch:

 

Ya think?

 

I gotta really think about this one. My standard line would have been "If heaven was never promised to me, it would have been worth it all."

 

I think I still feel that way.....................

 

I'll answer this more in-depth tomorrow. I'm not using my words very wisely this evening.

 

Tap

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Ya think?
:cunn::HaHa:

 

I gotta really think about this one. My standard line would have been "If heaven was never promised to me, it would have been worth it all."

 

I think I still feel that way.....................

 

I'll answer this more in-depth tomorrow. I'm not using my words very wisely this evening.

 

Tap

 

And in the mean time, I'll wonder how this couldn't be a simple 'yes' or 'no' answer. :Doh:

 

 

:kiss:

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:cunn::HaHa:

And in the mean time, I'll wonder how this couldn't be a simple 'yes' or 'no' answer.  :Doh:

:kiss:

 

I'll tell you why so you understand why I need to think on it.

 

 

 

 

Is it heaven I desire or hell that I fear? Is it a desire to live with Christ for eternity or fear of eternal torment?

 

I believe it's the first. However, the second also weighs heavily.

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I'll tell you why so you understand why I need to think on it.

Is it heaven I desire or hell that I fear? Is it a desire to live with Christ for eternity or fear of eternal torment?

 

I believe it's the first. However, the second also weighs heavily.

 

But, IF there wasn't a Heaven in the belief system.... :Doh::shrug:

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can i share a poem I wote?

 

For 15 billion years, I never had a name

I never felt Love, never felt hate

 

For 15 billionyears, i never felt alone

before I found my home of brain, skin , and bone

 

Again:

time travels on after I am gone.

 

My birthright

is to see the sunrise

within a single lifetime

 

Tonight, I know I am finite

I know the end is just a single breath away

 

Humans from Earth, humans of mud

of egos evolved from phobias

humans make love, createing humans of hate

still a billion years left to speciate.

 

Today

is a good day

Today

I find myself wide awake

Today is a good day

cuz, its never, ever , not Now

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Very good point, thankful.

 

No heaven and hell and eternal afterlife in the pentateuch, hmm..

 

I wonder what Zoroastrianism taught about this....

 

So much to think about.. :scratch::scratch:

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Heaven plays on people's selfish nature. Not necessarily heaven itself, but the thought of a "reward system". You know the scriptures, "well done, thy good and faithful servant". Come on in and get all the good shit I got stored up for ya.

No one who gives up family, friends, etc. will not be rewarded a hundred fold.

 

Christianity doesn't promote selflessness. It promotes selfishness with it's promise of heaven and eternal bliss, ultimate happiness, forever glee.

 

If it could be proved beyond all doubt today that there was no such thing as an eternal soul, that when the brain dies, you die, you'd see a lot of churches being converted over to 7-11's and Wal-Marts.

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To the Christians here. :scratch:

If Heaven were not part of the Christian Faith, would you still believe in it?

 

What else would have to be offered in place of Heaven for you to believe if your answer to the first question is "No."?

 

Fwee

Obviously, I posted this as a sister-thread to TAP's other thread. :scratch:

 

Fweethawt, thank you for this thread! And may I ask you to consider this..

 

Jesus says that the 'kingdom of God' is within us, hence heaven is ALSO within. Inside myself is where I really live, no?

 

Of course I journey through the world and interact with it... but I live and experience the world from within this body and the confines of my mind, no? We have the ability to creat this environment within each of us, where we really reside.

 

Jesus presents principles that offer the way to a place referred to as 'heaven' within, ...'hell' could be there too... as well as variations in between... it is totally up to the individual. Could one entertain the idea that perhaps there is a war between heaven and hell within each of us? :shrug:

 

I can't even imagine heaven not being part of the Christian faith!!!!! These principles given in the Christian faith are of the ways to achieve that domain... no matter what is going on in the outside world! Have I found myself totally immersed in this place called heaven? No, but I've had enough of a taste of it that I want to continue the journey to be there. Perhaps you have to, you just didn't 'define' it the same way? :scratch:

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I highly doubt it Amanda.  Jesus's principles include HATING your family in order to get there  If you do not HATE your family you ARE NOT WORTHY. What part of that scripture do you not understand???

 

I think from Amanda's position that it is all allegory. (I'm sure she will correct me if I error.) She is perhaps a modern Origen looking for the "deep, hidden, spiritual truth" among the incidental and sometimes unsavory stories that may or may not be about real events. I only say this because you are bound to be frustrated in trying to get her to address literal meanings. Literal meanings are unimportant, except as a spring board into the unknown.

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Very good point, thankful.

 

No heaven and hell and eternal afterlife in the pentateuch, hmm..

 

I wonder what Zoroastrianism taught about this....

 

So much to think about.. :scratch:   :scratch:

 

Zoroastrianism introduced the cleansing with fire.

I don't think they really mean a hell, like a punishing place, but more like a cleansing from sins, and that was the redemption... Maybe it was more like cleansing for a while, but then you go to heaven afterwards... You've done your time in the bin, so to speak.

 

Fire was a big part of their symbolism.

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I think from Amanda's position that it is all allegory. (I'm sure she will correct me if I error.)  She is perhaps a modern Origen looking for the "deep, hidden, spiritual truth" among the incidental and sometimes unsavory stories that may or may not be about real events.  I only say this because you are bound to be frustrated in trying to get her to address literal meanings.  Literal meanings are unimportant, except as a spring board into the unknown.

You hit the head on the nail!

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I highly doubt it Amanda.  Jesus's principles include HATING your family in order to get there  If you do not HATE your family you ARE NOT WORTHY. What part of that scripture do you not understand???

 

Dear Thankful, I aplogized for troubling you... but can you tell me the specific book and verse from the text you reference? Thank you.

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Luke 14:26. It says:

 

If any [man] come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

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Luke 14:26. It says:

 

If any [man] come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

For the longest time I had a problem with that verse.

The only way to explain it was to say that J didn't mean "hate" in its fullest meaning, but just "dont spend your time with the family". So basically put your priorities in the right place, i.e. religion. But the word he uses there is "hate" and not "less priority". He should have said what he meant instead.

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This may sound terrible ... but I spent more time being troubled by the concept of heaven than I ever did being troubled by the concept of hell.

 

For much of my life - when I accepted the idea that a literal hell and heaven exisited somewhere - I relied on my knack of finding last minute ways to get out of trouble to keep me out of the hot spot and so I didn't give much thought to hell ....

 

Heaven - I assumed I'd get there - but I really really wasn't looking forward to it - any description I've ever heard sounds hellish to me.

 

What kind of a reward is it supposed to be? What kind of person hangs around a religion because they think it will get them into heaven - if it's heaven as described in mainstream christianity?

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Amanda: you portray yourself as a christian, but I'm not thinking too many christians are gonna think you're a christian.

 

What exactly is your gig? And I don't mean to put you in a box, but, on the other hand, you shouldn't mislead people here either. You seem incredibly tolerant of gays and other things (that are admirable in my book), but NOT conventionally biblical or orthodox in thinking.

 

People on this site who haven't had a lot of experience in christianity won't recognize that you aren't representative of the christian faith in general.

 

If you're new age, then that's cool. If you're gnostic, that's cool too. Doesn't really matter what you are, you're cool here. I find your ideas interesting. I poke fun at you, but I'm only kidding with it. I attended the Church of Religious Science as a teenager, and much of your stuff is similar. (Dr. Ernest Holmes founded this philosophy in the early 1900's) In that religion, Jesus is not the unique Son of God, he is just a slightly more enlightened son of god who possessed more of the Christ Consciousness than most others, just like we are all sons of (and parts of) god

Science of Mind is another name for it.

 

So, how 'bout it, Amanda. Lay your cards out. One answer will settle it for me..

 

WHO WAS AND/OR IS JESUS, IN YOUR OPINION?

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I highly doubt it Amanda.  Jesus's principles include HATING your family in order to get there  If you do not HATE your family you ARE NOT WORTHY. What part of that scripture do you not understand???

 

Thankful, that does seem like its not a very loving, caring, or compassionate way of treating your family! But, closer inspection of Luke 14:26 taken in context of the whole chapter does provide, perhaps, a more comprehensive meaning without the connotation of maliciousness. Remember, they were not as articulate as we are now.

 

Thankful, if you would be so kind to indulge me, consider the following. The chapter from which you refer is talking about Jesus seeking disciples to perpetuate His principles/teachings for the sake of bringing emotional and physical healing to all humanity and ending condemnation.

 

Starting the chapter, He questions the popular view of the religous right, of the time, who went strictly by the literal interpretation of the law. The law of... 'do not work and keep the Sabbath holy'... was brought to their attention. So Jesus confronts them with a consideration to their previous interpretations... if one is sick, do not heal him? Jesus then healed a man on the Sabbath right in their presence! Jesus asserted that it is the intention/purpose of the law that is important, instead of the literal words/letters of the law.

 

Looking for disciples, He invited some of these people to come for dinner... to nourish them (physically and spiritually), yet He explained to them that NO ONE ever takes precedence over another. He called them to gather for their food, for it was ready... yet, they said they were busy and made excuses why they could not make it (probably because they knew Jesus would not exhalt them in a fashion they were accustomed to in their positions). Jesus commanded His servants to gather people on the streets, the lame, the poor, the blind, anyone but those He previously had invited... and the house was filled.

 

Jesus then said to the multitude who wanted to learn from Him, one has to hate their father, mother, wife, children, and even their self TO BE HIS DISCIPLE. This is in regards to recognizing that His ways are higher than our ways. Hate their families ways as well as one's own ways in comparisan to the ways of Jesus, to come to Jesus in recognition of His divine teachings. Perhaps it is better to come to Him hating/disgusted with all you thought you knew, and allowing the new formation of much stronger foundations.

 

Consider this thought as you read a few of these verses of the chapter I've inserted here for your convenience. The last sentence of this chapter, I did not include, Jesus says.. "For those who have an ear, let them hear."

 

Luke 14:21

So that servant came, and shewed his lord these things. Then the master of the house being angry said to his servant, Go out quickly into the streets and lanes of the city, and bring in hither the poor, and the maimed, and the halt, and the blind.

14:22

And the servant said, Lord, it is done as thou hast commanded, and yet there is room.

14:23

And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled.

14:24

For I say unto you, That none of those men which were bidden shall taste of my supper.

14:25

And there went great multitudes with him: and he turned, and said unto them,

14:26

If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot * be my disciple.

 

original text meaning of cannot from Strong Concordance:

Strong's Number: 1410 Browse Lexicon

Original Word Word Origin

duvnamai of uncertain affinity

Transliterated Word TDNT Entry

Dunamai 2:284,186

Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech

doo'-nam-ahee Verb

 

Definition

to be able, have power whether by virtue of one's own ability and resources, or of a state of mind, or through favourable circumstances, or by permission of law or custom

to be able to do something

to be capable, strong and powerful

 

Perhaps Thankful, the verse you refer to was what I said and just to attain a state of mind most suitable for understanding the charitable nature of His teachings. Leaving the ways of their families, leaving their past perception of what takes priorities, they come back to their families and friends with much richer gains than they had.

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I agree.  It sounds like a never ending church service or something.  So dull and boring.  I hear Christians say sometimes that they can't wait to get to heaven and spend and eternity bowing, singing and dancing before God.  Are they delusional?  High on drugs?  Just spouting out nonsense they don't really believe?  That sounded sooooo boring to me. 

 

An eternity of boredom or an eternity of frying.  Sounds like two different hells to me.

I think the idea of the perfect heaven, with no crime and no sin and hence no free will or search for more knowledge, it sounds like it hell to me!

 

Most people need challenge, change, progress, learn more things, think freely, even have the freedom to make a mistake. But in heaven, you will stand in the choir and sing for year, after year, after year, after year...

 

Probably more fun at the barbecue. The more I think about it, I probably prefer the party.

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Amanda:  you portray yourself as a christian, but I'm not thinking too many christians are gonna think you're a christian. 

 

What exactly is your gig?  And I don't mean to put you in a box, but, on the other hand, you shouldn't mislead people here either.  You seem incredibly tolerant of gays and other things (that are admirable in my book), but NOT conventionally biblical or orthodox in thinking.

 

People on this site who haven't had a lot of experience in christianity won't recognize that you aren't representative of the christian faith in general.

 

If you're new age, then that's cool.  If you're gnostic, that's cool too.  Doesn't really matter what you are, you're cool here.  I find your ideas interesting.  I poke fun at you, but I'm only kidding with it.  I attended the Church of Religious Science as a teenager, and much of your stuff is similar.  (Dr. Ernest Holmes founded this philosophy in the early 1900's)  In that religion, Jesus is not the unique Son of God, he is just a slightly more enlightened son of god who possessed more of the Christ Consciousness than most others, just like we are all sons of (and parts of) god 

Science of Mind is another name for it.

 

So, how 'bout it, Amanda.  Lay your cards out.  One answer will settle it for me..

 

WHO WAS AND/OR IS JESUS, IN YOUR OPINION?

 

 

Hey Mythra, I think you are really, really cool yourself! Absolutely delightful... and as everyone here, quite refreshing! I could get mushy here, yet I won't... don't worry mates. :grin:

 

You wonder what I am... and I am not as good with labels as most here. I'm honored to give details concerning my foundations though.... only remember, I'm not implying in any way, shape, or form that anyone need conform to my views! :phew:

 

I do believe that the 'original text' of the Bible is the Truth, and one must keep that in context with another postulate that says Truth can not contradict Truth. There are many paths to Truth, and it appears that many have found Truth here without relying on the Bible... and I believe that can be done.

 

Jesus was a man that manifested the fullness and consciousness of God here on earth, hence an incarnation of that part of God, to set an example for us to overcome the ways of the world, including the condemnation of the religous right. The Buddhist speak of the Power, Consciousness, and Divine Rapture of God, which I sense adequately describes the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

 

Now I think that Jesus is the hidden man of the heart that brings a clearing of the conscience. A place in ALL of us that loves and cares about ourselves, as well as others, immensely... and recognizes that ALL are parts of the same force/energy/God, and is bringing each and every one of us into a priesthood and ministry of a compassionate, merciful, all powerful, ALL loving God.

 

Hey, you guys aren't going to hold that against me, are ya'? :eek: Gosh, I was just beginning to get the feeling that some of you great and wonderful people liked me... and I liked that. :thanks:

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Thanks Amanda. Now I've got lots of angles to attack ya.

 

:begood:

 

Are you a lone pilgrim, or are there others? Do you attend church?

 

 

Sorry, I'm just curious. You're kinda an oddity.

 

Got a feeling you'll get along better with the heathens here than the christians, though.

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Hey Mythra, I think you are really, really cool yourself! Absolutely delightful... and as everyone here, quite refreshing! I could get mushy here, yet I won't... don't worry mates.  :grin:

 

You wonder what I am... and I am not as good with labels as most here. I'm honored to give details concerning my foundations though.... only remember, I'm not implying in any way, shape, or form that anyone need conform to my views!  :phew:  

 

I do believe that the 'original text' of the Bible is the Truth, and one must keep that in context with another postulate that says Truth can not contradict Truth. There are many paths to Truth, and it appears that many have found Truth here without relying on the Bible... and I believe that can be done.

 

Jesus was a man that manifested the fullness and consciousness of God here on earth, hence an incarnation of that part of God, to set an example for us to overcome the ways of the world, including the condemnation of the religous right. The Buddhist speak of the Power, Consciousness, and Divine Rapture of God, which I sense adequately describes the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

 

Now I think that Jesus is the hidden man of the heart that brings a clearing of the conscience. A place in ALL of us that loves and cares about ourselves, as well as others, immensely... and recognizes that ALL are parts of the same force/energy/God, and is bringing each and every one of us into a priesthood and ministry of a compassionate, merciful, all powerful, ALL loving God.

 

Hey, you guys aren't going to hold that against me, are ya'?  :eek:   Gosh, I was just beginning to get the feeling that some of you great and wonderful people liked me... and I liked that. :thanks:

 

 

From your description of yourself, I would "label" you as a Christian-leaning Unitarian Universalist (they do exist, at least in my neck of the woods). Don't take offense please. :) I really respect your version of Christianity. :woohoo:

 

That said, what denomination of church do you attend? How do they see your views? Forgive me if you have already answered those questions..... :HaHa:

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Thanks Amanda.  Now I've got lots of angles to attack ya.   

 

:begood:

 

Are you a lone pilgrim, or are there others?  Do you attend church?

 

 

Sorry, I'm just curious.  You're kinda an oddity.

 

Got a feeling you'll get along better with the heathens here than the christians, though.

 

 

D'oh!!! :Doh:

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Hi Amanda!

I was thinking the same thing, that you sound rather new age when you talk about christ conscienceness and such.

I'm not picking on you here either, I can handle that a lot better than a fundimentalist, LOL!

In fact, you probably don't like fundies much either, huh?

 

Well, I hope you continue to develop your own ideas and thoughts...that's really important! :grin:

 

Take care!

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