Evolution_beyond Posted June 23, 2007 Share Posted June 23, 2007 Having watched a program here in the UK about Keith Allen interviewing the Phelps family and then checking out some of Louis Theroux's program where he interviewed them, I realised that it is time I stopped being cowardly about my own values. In future when I am talking with someone who is trying to tell me about Jesus, I am going to stick rigidly to this issue and not let go. To a fundamentalist I will simply say "that book you follow says that homosexuality is a sin. It is bigoted and intolerant and I want nothing to do with it" A more moderate christian might talk about historical context and it reflecting the culture of the times rather than any God-given truth. But then i will say "can you admit then that there are certain things in the Bible that are wrong" because this isn't a matter of symbol or metaphor. The Bible says that and it means it when it says it. Until i can get the christian to admit that sometimes the Bible is just plain wrong then I'm not going to even discuss anything further with them. I don't associate with intolerant and bigoted people. I don't generally have philosophical discussions with nazis and other racist groups. Why should christians be any different? It is a matter of moral outrage. It is a matter of my principles and deeply held values. Until you have admitted that your Bible is wrong about this then I simply won't discuss anything else about your faith because it is an intolerant and bigoted faith and I want nothing to do with it. Liberals have to start getting tough! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jun Posted June 23, 2007 Share Posted June 23, 2007 Hear, hear. On those very grounds of intolerance and bigotry, many many Japanese bookstores and libraries won't carry the bible. It's time "Western" nations followed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted June 23, 2007 Share Posted June 23, 2007 Testify! Another thing that makes my teeth itch is the idea that being gay is a choice. From what I know of my gay friends, theirs was as much a choice as my abiding love of women... It is NOT a choice... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deva Posted June 23, 2007 Share Posted June 23, 2007 A more moderate christian might talk about historical context and it reflecting the culture of the times rather than any God-given truth. But then i will say "can you admit then that there are certain things in the Bible that are wrong" because this isn't a matter of symbol or metaphor. The Bible says that and it means it when it says it. Until i can get the christian to admit that sometimes the Bible is just plain wrong then I'm not going to even discuss anything further with them. Evolution Beyond: Good luck with getting them to admit that the Bible is just plain wrong. In the rather liberal Episcopal Church where I was formerly a member, a deacon (now a priest) once said that the letters of Paul were not much taught there because "it is hard for people to correctly understand them". This is really just the idea that the bad parts in the Bible will go away because they are ignored. Maybe no one will read them. Then the clergy will not have to provide excuses or explanations for why, since the book is in error, it is still "holy". I think probably most liberal churches do the same. Also there is the implication that the Bible is somehow beyond the understanding of the average person, one must be "led by the Spirit". In every other area of life, if confronted with contradictory nonsense it would be rejected by them absolutely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. S. Martin Posted June 23, 2007 Share Posted June 23, 2007 Testify! Another thing that makes my teeth itch is the idea that being gay is a choice. From what I know of my gay friends, theirs was as much a choice as my abiding love of women... It is NOT a choice... Finally I meet a wise man. For years I have not known any other heterosexual beside myself who will stand up for gay rights. Evolution_Beyond, I am thinking of applying your theme to other topics, too, esp. about atheists being bad people. Last night I met with three atheists. They talked about standing up for their beliefs, not slinking meekly behind the crowd with their tail between their legs. From now on: Atheists are good people. I will discuss nothing else until you agree with that. Let's see if I have the courage to do it. My guess is that Christians might agree with one tiny part of their mind but not change the core of their heart beliefs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted June 23, 2007 Share Posted June 23, 2007 "From now on: Atheists are good people. I will discuss nothing else until you agree with that." Sorry, can't agree... there are good ones and bad ones. Some of my closest friends are Christian... I think the'yre good people... I've known shit heads who are gay, atheist, Christian, Hindu, Muslim and Jew... and I've known virtual saints who are... you get the drift. To say 'Atheists are good people' is as broad a brush as 'Atheists are the devil's pizzle' Atheists are people... good, bad, struggling and apathetic. Nothing more, nothing less. It's always easier to dehumanise 'the enemy'... and extol the virtues of the 'good' guys. There are some good, some bad and some most right thinking people would shoot on sight like a rabid dog... same as everyone else. A world away from saying 'Being Gay Is Not a Sin'... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. S. Martin Posted June 23, 2007 Share Posted June 23, 2007 Harley, I see I worded it wrong. What I meant was that atheism in and of itself does not make a person good or bad, same as religion does not make a person good or bad. And until a person accept this, talking with them is beside the point. I know people for whom the word "good" and the word "atheist" cannot co-exist. For such people, simple normal human acts like petting a dog or grieving the loss of a family member take on moral value. For them, such little things indicate one of two things: 1. the person is rethinking religion OR 2. the person has an ulterior motive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted June 23, 2007 Share Posted June 23, 2007 In the end, some people will always seek the evil in man's actions, some will seek the good. Both are equally deluded... Atheists are not tools of the Devil, in denial, or deluded. I will discuss nothing else until you agree with that. Not pithy but accurate. Bear in mind, you go in with some half baked comment and they will rip it apart... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. S. Martin Posted June 23, 2007 Share Posted June 23, 2007 It looks like you commented while I was revising my post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garnet Posted June 23, 2007 Share Posted June 23, 2007 Christians don't get a free pass from me anymore either. The judgements of homosexuals are bad enough but I think that is just symptomatic of the exclusivity of Christianity coupled with the arrogance of the followers. In America, Christians say brazenly rude and disgusting things all the time and get away with it. Makes me sick sometimes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted June 24, 2007 Share Posted June 24, 2007 It looks like you commented while I was revising my post. seems so... I wasn't critting the sentiment, just the wording... After all, going in with a logical hole leaves an opening... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D Laurier Posted June 24, 2007 Share Posted June 24, 2007 Homosexuality is not a "sin". Left handedness is not a "sin". Epilepsy is not a "sin". Dark skin is not a "sin". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amethyst Posted June 26, 2007 Share Posted June 26, 2007 Homosexuality is not a "sin".Left handedness is not a "sin". Epilepsy is not a "sin". Dark skin is not a "sin". There should be a bumper sticker: Being different is not a "sin". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike D Posted June 26, 2007 Share Posted June 26, 2007 Why would a Christian agree that homosexuality is not a sin when the Bible is pretty clear that any type of sex outside of heterosexual marriage is a sin? Hell, you don't even need to actually have sex with anyone to sin, just a fleeting thought of sex will have you commiting the "lust of the heart" sin and bound for the hottest fires of hell. Not only is it a sin to be gay, in fact "god" himself hates gay people so much he commands them to be violently murdered in the OT: "If a man lies with another man as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them." - Leviticus 20:13 The only reason Christians today don't round up gay people and drag them to the town square to be stoned (along with atheists, those you hear curse, anyone who's had premarital sex [probably 50% of US teenagers], drunks, divorcees, idolators, gluttons, those who work on the Sabbath, etc.) is because they believe Jesus did away with all those laws. Well most Christians anyway.... the ones that don't believe the law was abolished don't have the manpower to round up and stone 1/2 of the population to death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jun Posted June 26, 2007 Share Posted June 26, 2007 "god" himself hates gay people Yet "God" "made each and every one of us how we are" the Christians tell me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramen666 Posted June 26, 2007 Share Posted June 26, 2007 Hear, hear. On those very grounds of intolerance and bigotry, many many Japanese bookstores and libraries won't carry the bible. It's time "Western" nations followed. Really? That is kind of something that I never new before that proves Japanese people are smart. ( Generalization and a steroptype because in the West we think Japanese people are smart) They got it they see the intolerance and bigitory and hate good for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Japedo Posted June 26, 2007 Share Posted June 26, 2007 Why would a Christian agree that homosexuality is not a sin when the Bible is pretty clear that any type of sex outside of heterosexual marriage is a sin? Hell, you don't even need to actually have sex with anyone to sin, just a fleeting thought of sex will have you commiting the "lust of the heart" sin and bound for the hottest fires of hell. This is simple to address and I have done it more times then I can count. Ask the Fundy if they support incest. The reaction is always the same, a horrified absolute no. Go on to explain that Sodom and Gomorra where supposedly destroyed over sins of sex... The fundy will agree... Ask them to explain why the only 'righteous" in gods eyes (Lot) went on to have sex and father his own grandkids with his own daughters. Is that not a sex crime? Did lot marry his daughters? You can also throw in that he offered his daughters to be raped and brutalized by the mob for more of an effect. Why is this considered righteous and other types of sex deserve death? I haven't met a Christian yet who can answer it, they will see their own contradictions and will "need to study this further'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nude Disintegrating Parachutist Posted June 26, 2007 Share Posted June 26, 2007 Without god there is no sin (sin after all is a god thang), to date I have no evidence of the existance of any god or gods (by any name) so NO...I don't think homosexuality is sin. I don't think that homosexuals should have any special rights or laws but I damn sure think they should have the same benifit of rights and laws not because they are homosexuals but because they are citizens, being homosexual should never be a reason to deny someone thier due rights. Me personally, as a male, I like big squishy boobies and virtical smiles, but if you are gay I say whatever works for you, more power to ya it's all good! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted June 26, 2007 Share Posted June 26, 2007 Indeed. When a government decided to try and permanently proscribe the rights of around a 20th of its citizenry, there is an inherent problem. The point of civil partnerships is to give equal rights in terms of inheritance and splitting up. When a friend of mine lost his partner of 35 years to cancer, he had no rights. His sister tried to take over the whole show (she'd never accepted the fact he was gay) and if it hadn't been for his daughter's insistence that David (yet another David... there are a lot of them out there) was involved, and if it came to a choice her dad's sister had no niece if she insisted that David had no part... Very ugly... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LosingMyReligion Posted June 26, 2007 Share Posted June 26, 2007 Now, if only gay christians would get a clue... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted June 26, 2007 Share Posted June 26, 2007 David is a Gay Christian... as in my friend David, mentioned above... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LosingMyReligion Posted June 26, 2007 Share Posted June 26, 2007 I will NEVER understand it. Some of my friends are still into x-tianity...Albeit a whitewashed and watered down version. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted June 26, 2007 Share Posted June 26, 2007 Hey, I didn't say it was logical... He disregards virtually everything except Mark, so go figure... It's like following the Jefferson bible... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike D Posted June 29, 2007 Share Posted June 29, 2007 Now, if only gay christians would get a clue... They just forgot to read in the Babble where Ja-Hoover and his only begatten son Jebus IV tell us that homerseckshurals are abomberations and bound for hellfire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lupis Noctum Posted June 30, 2007 Share Posted June 30, 2007 The only reason Christians today don't round up gay people and drag them to the town square to be stoned (along with atheists, those you hear curse, anyone who's had premarital sex [probably 50% of US teenagers], drunks, divorcees, idolators, gluttons, those who work on the Sabbath, etc.) is because they believe Jesus did away with all those laws. Well most Christians anyway.... the ones that don't believe the law was abolished don't have the manpower to round up and stone 1/2 of the population to death. Nah, main reason they don't round up the athiests, fornicators, drunks, divorcees, idolators, and gluttons is financial. If they killed all these types of people, there'd be maybe one or two people left per congregation, and certainly no one behind the pulpit. No butts on seats, no cash flow... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts