Honesty To Be Thrown Out With The Bathwater?

[ToHellWithMe]

Thanks to the discussion in my previous thread, i've begun to question honesty and sincerity. In the end what matters is whether you and your loved ones are happy. Sometimes this might require lies, and if you think you're intelligent enough to maintain those lies, you should go for it.

 

One simple application of this principle could be ex-christianity. I, for one, haven't properly come out of the closet to my parents and other relatives about this yet. I've never told them i don't really believe the christianity shit anymore. I've just expressed uninterest by saying "nahh" when they ask me to go to church.

 

I've lived a pretty secluded life the last 5 years. Not having real friends, except for one last year, but having many acquaintances who enjoyed bullying me and hearing about my experiences and whom i liked to listen to and bully whenever i got the chance. I wasn't happy, though. I'm now trying hard to become compatible with the world again. To be happy. Not that i even know what 'happy' is...

 

Still, i feel like what i really should do is die. World doesn't accept me as i want to be: honest. That hurts the most. To be liked i have to be crafty, i have to control others and their thinking. Otherwise i'll be a loser and controlled. It's been a long while since i last was in this kind of phase where i'm, well, kind and nice. I like to do things for others. But once again they treat me like a dog. "Fetch me this, fetch me that." And i will fetch, hating it more and more every time i do.

 

Anyway, since i don't want to die, i should learn to be dishonest and cunning in an utilitarian and altruistic way. (I'm not giving up those principles yet, even if honesty has to go.) I could become poison to the religion to kill it off from those that i love. I could say that i indeed do believe and then try and become a believing abomination, the kind of fundie they couldn't even imagine and still act exactly within the principles they profess. I could be jesus-like and learn everything well and then question the sermons in church - loudly. Point out inconsistencies with the bible where it's usually found inappropriate: where you should just sit quietly and play good lamb, baa. That should create sufficient cognitive dissonance in their minds to make them question it all........ No. Fuck this. I only now realize the religion in itself is a lie that makes them happy. Fuck. I HATE THIS SO MUCH!

 

HOW ON EARTH do you others get by in this world? Are you really happy? How?! Do you separate good and bad lies and propagate the good ones and try to undo the bad ones? It's so fucking difficult and i'm not even very stupid as far as i know, so i should be able to make it. I took the Mensa test last sunday to be sure of that. Too bad it takes a few weeks to get the results...

[Vigile]

Still, i feel like what i really should do is die. World doesn't accept me as i want to be: honest. That hurts the most. To be liked i have to be crafty, i have to control others and their thinking. Otherwise i'll be a loser and controlled. It's been a long while since i last was in this kind of phase where i'm, well, kind and nice. I like to do things for others. But once again they treat me like a dog. "Fetch me this, fetch me that." And i will fetch, hating it more and more every time i do.

 

It sounds like you believe in absolutes. Your thinking seems very binary to me. There are no absolutes. Do you shit in public? Is it shameful to hide the fact that you shit behind closed doors? Why then do you want to force every last thought that comes to your mind on everyone around you? Keeping some thoughts to yourself is a sign of maturity, not a mark of dishonesty. Not keeping your thoughts in check just results in verbal diarrhea and no one wants to be subjected to that.

 

As for the rest, there is nothing wrong with being loving and kind. Loving and kind does not involve being a doormat. Again, you are applying absolutes to a situation that calls for you to adapt to nuance.

[OnceConvinced]

I still haven't told my parents about my falling away from the faith and I hope I never have to. They are retired now and I don't want to put any stress on them having them worried about my salvation. Not only that, but my mother would just keep nagging me and trying to convince me to start going back to church. I can do without that hassle.

 

Fortunately they live four hours away from me and I only see them once every few months or so. It is awkward when they ask me how church is and stuff like that.

[mwc]

I don't know if I should take up with you again since you have a number of issues that a profession therapist should attend to but one thing caught my eye...

 

One simple application of this principle could be ex-christianity. I, for one, haven't properly come out of the closet to my parents and other relatives about this yet. I've never told them i don't really believe the christianity shit anymore. I've just expressed uninterest by saying "nahh" when they ask me to go to church.

And what's wrong with this? They ask and you basically say "no." Where's the lie? Do you really want to go to church? If so, then you're lying. Otherwise you don't owe anyone an explanation. Just the same if they asked you to dinner and you said "no" (It's different if you made plans to go and broke them under false pretenses but that isn't what is happening here so your honesty is intact...of course an exception could be made if you were going to surprise them for a birthday party or something and this was part of the plan).

 

mwc

[Robbobrob]

I think you are mistaking filtering your thoughts with lying to others. No one wants to know every thought in your head, or your position on ever issue. Self-censorship is not lying, it is being a civilized part of society. Like stated above, there are no absolutes. Topics are appropriate in certain situations, and not appropriate in others.

[ToHellWithMe]

Ugggggggggh!

 

I'm thankful for you taking the time to read and reply, but, vigile, roborob and mwc, i feel you're still too stuck in my last thread.

 

I already found the need to filter, as i told in post #20 there:

 

Yesterday evening this shit culminated by making me tell every single thought that passed my mind to my girlfriend. She just stopped listening and went carrying on her usual stuff while i somewhat continuously babbled to her. Then, after a hour or so, self-reflection hit me and i wondered (aloud, of course) whether she even understands anything of my train of thought. She replied "no, when i try to listen, something just starts buzzing inside my head". I then fell silent for a few minutes and asked if she would mind it if i shut up and contemplated alone and told things to her only when they've become clear to me. She said she wouldn't mind. I asked whether it would be dishonest do do so, and to that she also said no. I lost control and started crying then. Because of the great relief i felt.

 

There's still more to honesty than that. The thing you keep talking about was a momentary lapse of sanity that i'm done with already. A lot of the general honesty problem still remains. How to generally get along with those you love when very important beliefs conflict...

 

Onceconvinced:

Yeah, I might go for just that myself. Still, it's irritating. For example i can't benefit for their possible wisdom if they fail to even question what i have questioned and rejected. If they knew i don't believe that, they wouldn't base whatever they say on premises that i don't accept. For one, they think that what i should do to be happy is work, because Luther said so. If i'm not happy, the first thing they'll make me do is homework and that makes me feel even worse, so i can't tell them that i'm not happy. If they don't profoundly realize that i respect Luther just enough to take a shit on his grave and hate his ideas, they'll never understand me.

 

Anyway, i've done thinking on this topic over the last couple of days. Only proper result is that my despair has turned into depression and resignment. That's not good. I really want to do something firm and effective to avoid losing my feelings for years again.

 

How to come to understanding when those of the family that are supposed to be old and wise believe in stupid shit? Am i to assume the position of the wisest and make them question that stupid shit? I love them so i have to do something. How the hell?!

 

Prentending to be more fundie than they ever would think to be is one, but i am not really sure if i could pull it off. How have you people come to terms with your family and maintained good relations? How do you lie so that the lies don't nullify your relationship?

 

mwc:

I don't like your suggestion to get a therapist to help. I don't like it at all. I feel you're just making a show of washing your hands of me.

 

There's no lie in saying "nahh", agreed, but there's dishonesty in that anyway. I'm not telling them everything.

[R. S. Martin]

thwm, I responded via pm. It should show on your screen.

[mwc]

mwc:

I don't like your suggestion to get a therapist to help. I don't like it at all. I feel you're just making a show of washing your hands of me.

There's some "washing of the hands" to be sure but that, in part, comes from my knowing that I cannot address things properly in a web forum and I don't wish to make matters worse for you due to a miscommunication or simply because I am not qualified. Things went way beyond leaving the "faith" as it were and so I recommended you to someone that could deal with these other issues in more depth than this venue was designed to do. If you feel that's wrong then I apologize but I still feel that it would be beneficial. It was not meant as an insult towards you.

 

There's no lie in saying "nahh", agreed, but there's dishonesty in that anyway. I'm not telling them everything.

This is one way someone, in person, might be able to help you better than a forum such as this could help you. You seem to be hung up on full disclosure in some parts of your life but seem to be able to accept that it is normal to hold back information at other times. Your own guilt is causing this but why? Why do you need to tell these people everything and why do you equate it with lying if you do not? My *guess* at part of this is you were trained to do so. You are afraid that the longer you hold the secret the worse your "punishment" will be when you are finally "discovered." By coming clean now you can get your "punishment" reduced or be "absolved" of the "crime" altogether...especially if you're "good" from now on. My *guess* is this is a variation on how things worked when you were a child. If you did something "wrong" and confessed things went much easier on you. If you held out then you got the harsher punishment. A secret can then become a lie depending on the context. Does any of this sound reasonable?

 

mwc

[Grandpa Harley]

I still haven't told my parents about my falling away from the faith and I hope I never have to. They are retired now and I don't want to put any stress on them having them worried about my salvation. Not only that, but my mother would just keep nagging me and trying to convince me to start going back to church. I can do without that hassle.

 

Fortunately they live four hours away from me and I only see them once every few months or so. It is awkward when they ask me how church is and stuff like that.

 

The answer is, 'Oh, same old same old, how's church with you?' and then listen to whos' shagging whom for the next hour...

[Grandpa Harley]

and On topic... councelling is a damned fine idea. If this place is AA for Ex-Cs without the 'Higher Power' crap, then it's wise that someone has the nerve to suggest professional help. The well intentioned amateur can wreak more havoc than flood water. We can share our meandering experiences, but we can't, nor should we really try, to foist solutions on people. To do so is dangerous and arrogant in equal measure (and I know arrogance... I'm the most arrogant person I know) The combination may be convenient, but I'd not care to try and pick up the mess, given a scoop and a bucket in the after math.

 

Thus, you may not like the advice... tough. To accuse MWC of pulling a Pilate, however, is uncalled for. He's one of our most supportive members (I tend to leave the wounded and run when the 'swinging from the "crazy" tree' gets topside... or worse, pull a knife to see if they bleed... depends on how much they annoy me)

[Robbobrob]

Well, to be honest, I had forgotten about that thread when I read this one, and I was surprised to find that I was even there.

 

All I can say is I have been where you are, and it is not a good place to be. I hope you can find peace within yourself, because you are stuck with yourself for the rest of your life.

[Unknowing1]

I don't see anything wrong with counselling. It doesn't hurt to talk to someone about things that are on your mind. Someone on the outside looking in can offer a lot of feedback and give you ideas that may cause you to rethink things or may even confirm that you are on target with your thought process.

 

As for the honesty issue, it does depend on what you describe as honesty. I agree with whomever said saying no to the question about going to church is not lying. Had you said yes that would have been lying. You don't need to say much more than that.

 

Just because others are dishonest doesn't mean that you need to be as well. I have found that most people are honest. And frankly those that aren't soon have their true colors show thru and end up not being well liked.

 

Me, I prefer to be honest and telling someone that I can't talk to them about something right at that moment and the reason why (ie: I'm not ready, been asked not too, whatever) or telling someone who is just being nosy and doesn't have any right to know all of my business, that it is none of their business, to me is being honest.

[R. S. Martin]

Thus, you may not like the advice... tough. To accuse MWC of pulling a Pilate, however, is uncalled for.

 

He didn't.

[Grandpa Harley]

"I feel you're just making a show of washing your hands of me."

 

I'd point you to the trial of Jesus

 

Matt 27:24

 

24 When Pilate saw that he was not succeeding at all, but that a riot was breaking out instead, he took water and washed his hands in the sight of the crowd, saying, "I am innocent of this man's blood. Look to it yourselves."

 

Thus the accusation of doing a Pilate.

[R. S. Martin]

Harley, I knew full well what you meant by that. We are entitled to our feelings. Read what he says. He says "I feel...." That is not the same as an accusation. Have you never felt mistreated when no one else thought you were? If not then you're just lucky.

[Grandpa Harley]

Perception is reality, and maybe I read a level of passive-aggressive accusation where there was none. However, reading it over, I still don't see it any different. MWC is one of the most supportive (and down right NICE) posters on here. The comment, even prefixed by 'I feel...' was, and remains, uncalled for IMO.

[ToHellWithMe]

Whoa!

You know what! This is totally on topic!

 

Should i hold my thoughts to myself if i'm offended and there's a risk that expressing my feelings further offends the one who offended me?

 

Is staying silent honest, though?

 

I could totally ignore what i were told. Is this the proper way?

 

OR i could try to think up another reason why what i was told is wrong other than why i feel offended. Wouldn't that be pretentious and divertive?

[Grandpa Harley]

you want a monopoly on being offended... Antler offended you, you offended me... I'll live. I'm certain you will too.

 

If I say something you don't like, feel free to rip me a new one

 

BTW, good advice is easy to give and bloody hard to take. If you ask for advice, belly aching you don't like it is just graceless...

[Amethyst]

I think it depends on the situation. I've been told I am too honest, no doubt it is because of my upbringing.

 

Certainly don't commit suicide. If you are seriously contemplating this, get professional help.

 

I would say it's the Christians who feel the need to wear their beliefs on their sleeves, in bright neon colors, no less. The rest of us should not have to. It really is nobody else's business what you believe, especially if you are an adult. Oh, they may try to make it their business, but it's not.

 

As for your family, old people are especially bound to be more religious than the younger ones. Their generation was steeped in it (at least, in the US).

 

I don't think staying silent is being dishonest. Sometimes you have to pick your fights, especially if you know your bridges will be burnt to a crisp and you don't want to burn those particular bridges. But each to their own.

[R. S. Martin]

Should i hold my thoughts to myself if i'm offended and there's a risk that expressing my feelings further offends the one who offended me?

 

Is staying silent honest, though?

 

I could totally ignore what i were told. Is this the proper way?

 

I would say yes to all your questions.

[R. S. Martin]

I would say it's the Christians who feel the need to wear their beliefs on their sleeves, in bright neon colors, no less.

 

And some of us get so badly mangled and confused by The Church that we bring this need into exChristianland. I suspect that's what's going on here.

[ToHellWithMe]

to mwc, to grandpa harley

 

OK

You offend me.

You don't realize you offend me, but you still offend me.

 

I'm going to rip you a new one now.

 

I came here in hopes of meeting someone older and wiser and more experienced than i am, to get precious advice. What i get from some is "get professional help!"

 

Do you even know what that is? Miracle healing for the insane provided by modern medical science? Being conducted by professionals makes it good?

 

Grandpa Harley, you call yourself 'grandpa'. Is that what you are? What do you do if your grandson/daughter comes to you seeking wisdom and compassion and understanding that age can provide about a matter they're struggling with but find their own mental resources insufficient? "Ohh, i understand what this is about perfectly! What you need is therapy!" If they then don't like that advice, do you tell them belly aching over it is just 'graceless'?

 

Do you think this is how it went a hundred years ago? No way. 100 years ago it was "Ohh, i understand what this is about perfectly! What you need is God!". Those who just washed their hands off the deal probably got the priest or someone else to do the miracle for them. Should they fail, the authority judges the grandchild hopeless and insane that has brought their own misery on them by failing to be good and proper. The authority then maybe pats the shoulders of the grandpa who did a good thing and asked someone in close connection with THE OMNISCIENT, wise GOD, and says that it can't be helped, just let go. And go they let.

 

If therapy fails, that's what also the therapist often tells. "We cannot help the patient, he resists our attempts." It's just the modern day authority of understanding what's going on in a troubled mind.

 

Yet, there are those experienced who try to help with their own wisdom. They might seek for more REAL help if they need, but they DO take responsibility and understand their ability and own wisdom. "I don't want to meddle with this kind of problems, i could just make it worse" is just cowardice and running away from the responsibility. A filthy excuse.

 

Now, i do realize you don't care about some kid on the internet like you'd care about your own son or grandson, but 'go ask somebody else' is harsh anyway. "Get therapy" is just a nice way of putting it, but the only one it helps is you. It lulls you into a false peace, lets you think that you've really done something that means something. Hello! Nowadays any 10 year old kid knows of therapy. You introduce them nothing new.

 

My parents and grandparents aren't stupid but they believe in god. They are wise and understanding but their world view contains a lot of explaining with the divine. If i want their wisdom, i get something that contains a lot of what i cannot accept. So basically they're wise and i love and respect them and i think they're idiots to believe in invisible beings. Did you ever deal with this very hurtful issue? If not, tell me you have no idea and wish me luck, but don't tell me i should get therapy. That's not what i need. I need wisdom.

[Grandpa Harley]

Both Ruby and MWC gave you wisdom. you don't like it, and thus refuse to see it as wisdom. If you ask and don't like what's said, theres nothing much to be done and throwing your toys about won't help. It's down to your peconcpetions of what you want.

 

Me, I don't hand out wisdom... I just call it as I see it. and I'm deliberately NOT giving you what you think you want but what I think you need. And I think you need to grow up. My 'advice' is listen to Ruby and Ant... and I know I offend you. It gets your attention.

 

If you thought your elders had wisdom, you'd not be here. IF you didn't think their beliefs made them 'stupid', you'd not be here. Thus I see a child throwing a tantrum because people didn't stroke his little head and dry his tear stained face.

 

Problem with asking for advice is that you'll get stuff you don't want to hear. Look upon it as growing up... Life sucks. Honesty is mostly the best policy, but there are times that discretion is the better part of valour. Quite how one gets to adulthood unscathed without learning that life lesson escapes me, but it seems to miss about 5% of the population...

 

Did that upset the wee man too?

[ToHellWithMe]

Did that upset the wee man too?

Nah, the opposite: resignment. I just give up on trying to make you understand. You really won't. You don't care.

 

Thus I see a child throwing a tantrum because people didn't stroke his little head and dry his tear stained face.

Seriously, WHAT do you think you as a responsible and wise parent should do to the child throwing the tantrum?

[OnceConvinced]

The answer is, 'Oh, same old same old, how's church with you?' and then listen to whos' shagging whom for the next hour...

 

Yeah, pretty much so. lol. And my mother just loves her gossip. Now that I'm a "more mature" adult, I'm hearing about all the skeletons in every family member's closet.