Praying For Me Is Imposing Their Beliefs

[R. S. Martin]

Here's my logic on it. If someone says to me, "I'm praying for you," they impose their beliefs on me. How so?

 

1. It presupposes that I believe in God; no one is asking me--they're telling me.

2. It requires that I believe in God. If I don't believe in God then "I'm praying for you" makes no sense. It's just sound-waves.

 

I am supposed to feel like they are caring for me when they pray for me. This involves the feelings. Therefore, it's manipulation. And that is imposing.

 

It would feel more like they cared for me if they helped me in my situation.

 

Another rant on prayer. My very religious cousin is looking for work. In one email she said, "Please pray that I will get this job if it's God's will."

 

That hit me between the eyes. How can anyone keep her from getting the job if it is God's will? Let's see, is this where Satan comes in (in the myth)? Somehow Satan can keep God's will from being done.

 

I am so glad to be free to actively choose the options I want in life. No more waiting around for god to make the wind blow in the right direction to prove that this really is what I should do--no more laying out the fleece. If I see something that benefits me I am free to go get it. I'm not being selfish, vain-glorious, or conceited. I'm just being human looking after my own human needs.

 

Does any of this make sense, especially the part about imposing beliefs.

[Taphophilia]

I was on this other forum a while back where this Christian I was debating said, "I'm praying for you." So, I replied " and I'm thinking for you." Pretty much pissed him off, but it's a perfect come back to the "I'm praying for you" crap.

[Eccles]

The rare times a person, usually a woman, says she is praying for me, I tell her I am an Atheist and do not believe in that stuff. The reaction is usually interesting. The person does not know what to say back. This I must say is in Australia, a country which does not suffer the scourge of Christianity like the United Christian States of America where I would have to endure the wrath of such a woman accompanied by copious references to the "holey babble" and threats of my demise in "hell".

 

Thank no-god that I do not live in America.

[HuaiDan]

To them, god exists whether you believe or not. They think you're the delusional one. And they believe the will of the lord can be evoked through prayer.

[Kirangel]

I was on this other forum a while back where this Christian I was debating said, "I'm praying for you." So, I replied " and I'm thinking for you." Pretty much pissed him off, but it's a perfect come back to the "I'm praying for you" crap.

 

I like it. That's the only time it would irritate me, is if they used it negatively in an argument. If it is said to generally be nice then I have no problems with them expressing their beliefs in such a way. Like if I tell a someone I have an important test that I need to do well on and they respond by saying, "I'll be praying for you" Than I just smile and tell them thanks. I don't take issue with statements like that.

[Unknowing1]

When someone says they are praying for me I do feel that they impose their beliefs on me. Even when I was a Christian I felt that way because to me I'm praying for you" was used indiscriminately regardless of the circumstance. For instance when conversing with someone they were much more likely to say "l'm praying for you" over a test someone had to take, a job a person was applying for, making it to the gas station without running out of gas or a hang nail than they were to say it when talking about world hunger and children starving.

 

Usually when someone says they are praying for me, I just say thanks but I did once when in a really pissy mood say, that's nice of you but please don't, direct your prayers to someone who needs them more than me.

[Grandpa Harley]

Depends on what they're praying for... if it's for you to return to the fold, then yes, it's passive-agressive bullying.

 

If they're praying for your recovery from illness, for your life to take a better turn, etc, then, I'd take it a 'good wishes in the third person', no more and no less than someone saying 'I'll keep my fingers crossed', 'Good luck!', or, for the Thesps, '"Break a leg!".

 

It then may depend how much they're going to crow if you don't die, your life gets better, etc. but that is a bridge best left uncrossed until you get there...

[Ro-bear]

My mother always said you've got to pick your battles. The "I'm praying for you" is one I usually let go, because it is an expression of concern and sympathy from someone who cares about me and may not even know I'm an atheist. In a different context, like a fundy stranger who utters it after learning that I am an atheist, I would take offense and fire something back. I like Taphophilia's rejoinder; it highlights the inefficacy of prayer compared to rational thought.

[Japedo]

I was on this other forum a while back where this Christian I was debating said, "I'm praying for you." So, I replied " and I'm thinking for you." Pretty much pissed him off, but it's a perfect come back to the "I'm praying for you" crap.

 

 

I love it Taph!! I'm going to have to remember that line!

[Toxic]

Here's my logic on it. If someone says to me, "I'm praying for you," they impose their beliefs on me. How so?

 

1. It presupposes that I believe in God; no one is asking me--they're telling me.

 

It also presupposes that you are at some unspecified time in the future going to join their particular religion/sect/denomination/church.

[Grandpa Harley]

Honi soit que mal y pense...

 

Wholly attributed. Unless each person tells you that, then you're making it up to piss yourself off...

[R. S. Martin]

Thanks for your responses. This is a "new" area for me. In the horse and buggy culture where I come from prayer was considered to be such a sacred and personal thing that we never said, "I'll pray for you." In really tender situations one person might say to the other, "We will be thinking of you." It was understood that prayer was meant and it indicated real sympathy. Audible prayer was not part of our life. The only audible prayers ever spoken were one prayer in church by the minister.

 

My question is based on an experience I had with a Christian I'm rather fed up with. She was clearly ruffled by things I had said. However, she pretended to be happy with things in a sarcastic kind of manner. And she said she would be praying for me. Since she has been married to a Baptist minister most of her life this is probably second nature for her to say. However, she does not say it in every email. This is the person I've been talking about in other threads in recent weeks. Someone suggested to just block her email.

 

I don't know why I don't. I would like for her to accept that I don't want so much contact. She refuses to do that. Or, if she doesn't want to settle for ending the relationship, I would like an open discussion of the issues. But she refuses to do that, too. She will do the guilt trip thing with finesse.

 

Her last proposition was being in contact, even if only twice a year. To me, that is not a friendship; it's totally meaningless. It's just an obligation. I don't understand why anybody would want that. Maybe people here know. I assume a lot of my problems with that kind of relationship have to do with dsyfunctional family and emotional abuse all my life. I have no idea how normal friendships should be conducted.

 

But relationships where people are in contact only a few times a year and say "I'm praying for you" when I don't cooperate or agree with their wishes--these are things I don't understand. It is out of respect for our past friendship that I don't want to just cut her off (block email). I would like to remain friends but I'm sick and tired of the kind of friendship she wants to conduct. If I want to discuss an item she will discuss it only if she has time on her hands. But I am supposed to feel a desire to stay in contact for its own purpose.

 

I gave her a link to my website (that is in my signature here) and she told me she won't treat me like a celebrity and just read my websites. She claimed to be interested in people. What I don't get is that if she is interested in me as a person, why wouldn't she be interested in my projects? She claims that I am her Canadian daughter. Don't all interested mothers want to see the projects their daughters are doing? Don't all decent moms feel pride and joy when their daughters accomplish something? Don't all kids bring home their school projects for mom to fuss over?

 

I don't think this woman is going to be such a loyal friend once she knows how seriously I am set against fundamentalist religion. She claims not to be fundy but I can't see the difference between her and regular fundies. She puts much stock in the "empty tomb." Isn't that about as fundy as you can get?

 

I am not sure what all I told her. It is possible that she does not know that I have permanently deconverted. She's awfully stupid if she doesn't believe it's permanent because she knows all the questions I was asking and that her answers did not satisfy. Nor the did the answers of her minister husband or army chaplain brother satisfy and she knows that. She has also commented many and many a time on my sharp brain. Can't she just know that a brian such as mine is not going to be content believing stuff that makes no sense?

 

Also, she is a couselor. This combination of skills should surely inform her that my decision is well-researched, and that I have been searching for longer than I have known her. We "met" in the mid-90s when I was in my late thirties. All this knowledge about me should make her realize that this is for real. Yet she is praying for me. In case she doesn't know where I stand, I told her in an email yesterday what I believe and requested that she not impose her beliefs on me. I said that telling me she is praying for me is imposing her beliefs on me. (Then I wrote this opening post for this thread. I wanted ammunition in case she tells me prayer is not imposing beliefs.)

 

I told her that she should pray in the privacy of her room like Jesus said. I didn't bother looking it up. She will probably explain it away no matter what I say or don't say. Public prayer has been part of Christian life for so long that she would hardly accept it any other way. And she did not exactly pray in her letter. Just informed me that she was praying. She can pray without telling me about it. I can't critique her for stuff I don't know. I've never met the woman. At one point I tried convincing her to visit me. She's in Pennsylvania and I'm in Ontario. People are always visiting back and forth between Ontario and Pennsylvania. She can go to Europe and spend several weeks each summer in Texas with her family. If I am such an important family member why the heck don't she and her husband ever come see me?

 

And if she's such a pastorly woman, why did it take her several weeks to acknowledge my mother's death in March? She asked a few questions about it so I wrote back the answer. But she never replied. Don't true friends care that much? even if they're Christian? I mean, this would surely be right down her ally as a lifelong pastor's wife, wouldn't it? Maybe Baptists are just different from Mennonites.

[Grandpa Harley]

In the case you outline, tell the cone headed fucking moron she can boil her head for all you care...

[Grandpa Harley]

and she's a hypocrite.

[R. S. Martin]

Honi soit que mal y pense...

 

Wholly attributed. Unless each person tells you that, then you're making it up to piss yourself off...

 

Sorry GH. What language is that first sentence? Spanish? What is it in English?

 

y=and in Spanish, I think

mal=terrible or bad in Latin, i.e. malpractice; I think it means all in some language or other

pense: looks a lot like pensive; is it related to feeling?

que=what in French or Spanish I think

Honi=sounds a lot like Honey in both English and German and I can't think of a single reason you would be calling me honey

soit=no idea what that might mean; it's close to suit or soot.

 

That leaves me with no idea what you might be trying to convey. Maybe you weren't talking to me. If so, fine.

 

Daydt's bessa schaffa wenn ich Deutch schwetza daydt?

 

Translation: Would it work better if I spoke [Pennsylvania] German?

[Grandpa Harley]

Sorry... honi soit qui mal y pense...

 

 

Old french... evil to him who evil thinks.

[R. S. Martin]

To them, god exists whether you believe or not. They think you're the delusional one. And they believe the will of the lord can be evoked through prayer.

 

I know that's what they think but it makes no sense. If god acts only upon request then it's magic. And they claim magic is very evil--the work of the devil himself. Besides, god seems perfectly capable of acting on his own without anyone asking him to. Take Hurricane Katrina for example. If god can wash away the entire Gulf region in one go-off without ever being asked, why can't he just cause my cousin to meet the right person who will hire her on the spot? She's a person with a disability, for crying out loud. She walks with a cane and she's not retirement age yet. Doesn't god care for such people?

 

Just telling her in a dream one night who needs her services would make life lots easier for her. Or causing the right help-wanted ad to float under her nose. And while he's at it, he could cause it to be that no better qualified person also applied. But no, that doesn't happen. She has to hobble and limp to all these interviews via public transporation, only to get turned down. Somehow she clings to faith in god. And I have no intention to intervene. Just asking questions of people who perhaps see life somewhat like I do. I was really stunned by the email: Pray that if it is God's will I get the job.

 

GH said:

 

In the case you outline, tell the cone headed fucking moron she can boil her head for all you care...

 

and she's a hypocrite.

 

Thanks. I won't tell her exactly that but that assures me that in the opinion of one person I am justified in no longer holding onto the friendship no matter how she feels about it.

 

Sorry... honi soit qui mal y pense...

 

 

Old french... evil to him who evil thinks.

 

Hmm. Okay. Don't know how to fit that into the conversation but at least I understand the words. Old English and Luther's German are the only out-of-date langauges I can read half-decently. Let's rephrase that; those are the languages I can read because I was raised on Luther's Bible. I know a few words from other languages but that's about it.

 

Toxic said:

 

It also presupposes that you are at some unspecified time in the future going to join their particular religion/sect/denomination/church.

 

Not in this case because I live in Ontario and she lives in Pennsylvania.

 

Ro-Bear said:

 

My mother always said you've got to pick your battles. The "I'm praying for you" is one I usually let go, because it is an expression of concern and sympathy from someone who cares about me and may not even know I'm an atheist. In a different context, like a fundy stranger who utters it after learning that I am an atheist, I would take offense and fire something back. I like Taphophilia's rejoinder; it highlights the inefficacy of prayer compared to rational thought.

 

I guess I got the "fundy feeling" from it. Not "fundy stranger" because we've been corresponding for a long time though we've never met. However I didn't do as she liked me to do and then getting the "I'll be praying for you" feels like something other than real love, esp. given the context of the situation.

 

I've seen Taph's response on here before. Someone has it in their signature, I think. Somehow, I never thought of that while I was trying to think how to respond.

 

Unknowing, great insight. I'll try to remember that, but I will also weigh it against how much I want to fight, okay?

 

Grandpa Harley said:

 

Depends on what they're praying for... if it's for you to return to the fold, then yes, it's passive-agressive bullying.

 

I have no idea to what extent this kind of thing was going on because as I said above I forget exactly what all she knows. I have not been in touch with her. For example, I doubt that she knows about my membership in the local humanist group, or that I have been asked to write a column in their newly launched Freethinker magazine. I would have loved to tell her that but I feel she has not earned the right to know. Besides, she might start praying for me in earnest if she knew. That's one reason I wished she would look up my website--to see if she even wanted to be connected with me--or me with her, depending on her reaction.

 

She is apparently barely computer literate because she said I didn't send a website address. I had included a live link and I guess she doesn't know what that is or how to use it. Maybe that is the biggest reason why she won't look at my website...hard telling. It would be awfully nice of her to be honest and not make up excuses.

[R. S. Martin]

I found the response I sent to her. Here is part of it:

 

I do not share your belief in God, humanity's need for spiritual salvation, or life after death. I believe that it is my responsibility to be true to myself and to live this life as best I know how. This makes me the kind of person Jesus and Paul said we should be. Abraham H. Maslow's model of self-actualization and Jesus' beatitudes and Paul's "fruits of the Spirit" are basically all the same. I am living on those models. Therefore, if God exists and if there is life after death, I will be admitted to heaven.

 

That is who I am. I prefer that you not impose your beliefs on me. Please do not inform me that you are praying for me because that is imposing your beliefs on me. If you must pray, please do so in the privacy of your room, as Jesus commanded. Thank you.

***************

I think that is decent enough and it should keep her from thinking I appreciate prayer.

 

I didn't tell folks here but she ridiculed the idea that I posted on a website about this problem with her. Just who does she think she is???

 

Oh yes, now I remember. She's the mother who is very loving and concerned when she has time on her hands and nothing better to do.

[Grandpa Harley]

It fits in because one can take 'I'll pray for you' as foisting their damn faith where it's not wanted or simply wishing you well in a slightly pious way...

 

In the case you're out lining, there's not much room for doubt... but in a lot of cases either tale could be true, and it's down to the individual to choose which version they like... and I like to go for the one that doesn't piss me off.

 

But then, so many other things piss me off

[R. S. Martin]

I'm trying to think how she might respond to that. One classic Christian response is, "But god wants us to believe in him!"

 

I think, "Yeah right! He does not want that anymore than I want you to believe what I say."

 

Even the couselor in her might not actually hear what I am saying there. I am saying, "I really, really want you to believe what I say because it's true!"

 

Thanks everyone for listening. Maybe it's time to go do something else for a bit.

[R. S. Martin]

It fits in because one can take 'I'll pray for you' as foisting their damn faith where it's not wanted or simply wishing you well in a slightly pious way...

 

In the case you're out lining, there's not much room for doubt... but in a lot of cases either tale could be true, and it's down to the individual to choose which version they like... and I like to go for the one that doesn't piss me off.

 

But then, so many other things piss me off

 

Me too. Just so you know, I live in a house where everybody else goes to church. I am studying Christian theology in a Christian insitution because I love theology. I will hardly be pissed off by people using religious language in a fair and respectful manner. This thread is giving me much better insight into things.

 

I felt I should not be upset if she just says she is praying for me. Like I said above, I did not grow up with this kind of language so I wasn't sure how to read all of it. I just knew that it felt totally wrong in some way or another. One of the people who is helping me in some things keeps saying, "Our prayers are going in the right direction." I finally figured out that she means we're doing all we can and we have reason to believe things will work out in the end. That's fine with me.

[Lycorth]

I like Taph's response too. Filed for future reference

 

I agree that it can be a passive-aggressive form of pushy evangelization, or just a method of well-wishing. It all depends on the person uttering the phrase, in the end.

[Unknowing1]

A true friend does take interest in you, meaning all of you, your projects, your work, your school, your thoughts and feelings, everything that makes you who you are. In otherwords a friend would have looked at your website and a friend would have asked why you feel the way that you do.

 

I'm not sure exactly what her counseling credentials are, or even what type of counselor she is, but based on what I have read in this thread if it were me in your place I think I'd be a bit wary of her and keep my friendship with her on a superficial level for the time being.

 

I agree with Varoker it does depend on who is saying it but I also think it depends on what leads up to it being uttered.

[Mankey]

Depends on what they're praying for... if it's for you to return to the fold, then yes, it's passive-agressive bullying.

 

If they're praying for your recovery from illness, for your life to take a better turn, etc, then, I'd take it a 'good wishes in the third person', no more and no less than someone saying 'I'll keep my fingers crossed', 'Good luck!', or, for the Thesps, '"Break a leg!".

 

It then may depend how much they're going to crow if you don't die, your life gets better, etc. but that is a bridge best left uncrossed until you get there...

This makes very good sense to me.

 

For Christians with a sense of humor I say "And I'll think for you" in response. But I feel that that is not always appropriate depending on the Christian. I choose to try to maintain the few relationships I do have with loved ones who believe. Some are family and some are friends. These are the ones who genuinely love me.

[Grandpa Harley]

I only make sense because the normal distribution curve has a far end