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Goodbye Jesus

Sin was never part of God's plan


Ouroboros

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Did God know that Adam and Eve would sin in the garden of Eden, or didn't he know?

 

If he did not then he was not omniscient.

 

If he did, well then he let it happen, and he had a plan for it.

 

My opinion is that Genesis clearly shows a God that knew the outcome, but pretended to be upset, because his plan from start was to make the thinking-robots that would lay down their free-will to God under force and threats.

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Since Biblegod is supposed to be omniscient, I see no way that he couldn't have known.

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This is the paradox of the apple. Since Adam and Eve had no knowledge of right and wrong until they ate the fruit, how could they know that what they were doing was wrong? An obvious case of entrapment.

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This is the paradox of the apple.  Since Adam and Eve had no knowledge of right and wrong until they ate the fruit, how could they know that what they were doing was wrong?  An obvious case of entrapment.

Yes, totally. I think the concept of the fruit of knowledge is the prominent proof that God totally knew what would happen.

 

You give a loaded gun to a child, and ask him to play with it.

The child will injure himself or someone else, or at least cause a lot of damage.

 

***

 

If God didn't know what would happen, then he was either 1. stupid, 2. ignorant, 3. not omniscient, 4. non existent.

Choose 1,2,3 or 4...

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Did God know that Adam and Eve would sin in the garden of Eden, or didn't he know?

 

If he did not then he was not omniscient.

 

If he did, well then he let it happen, and he had a plan for it.

 

My opinion is that Genesis clearly shows a God that knew the outcome, but pretended to be upset, because his plan from start was to make the thinking-robots that would lay down their free-will to God under force and threats.

 

 

I mentioned this jokingly in another thread today, but it's more appropriate here I think.

 

First, is not incest a sin? I long ago discarded my bible, but I'm sure it's covered.

 

Second, god created Adam and Eve and then told them be fruitful and multiply. So multiply they did. What about the second generation though. Didn't Kane and Abel have to boink their sisters to carry on god's command to be fruitful?

 

Ahhh, so god commanded a sin. That was awfully nice of him.

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I mentioned this jokingly in another thread today, but it's more appropriate here I think. 

 

First, is not incest a sin?  I long ago discarded my bible, but I'm sure it's covered. 

 

Second, god created Adam and Eve and then told them be fruitful and multiply.  So multiply they did.  What about the second generation though.  Didn't Kane and Abel have to boink their sisters to carry on god's command to be fruitful?

 

Ahhh, so god commanded a sin.  That was awfully nice of him.

 

This is something that I started asking at the beginning of my stint in christianity.

Why didn't god create at bunch of people instead of just two.

 

Also this brings up the point that EVE is the root of SIN she fed Adam after chatting with the serpent. Now if god had made Adam & Steve with the ability to procreate then the whole thing would have worked!

 

Women + Knowledge=Sin (not my equation GODS)

 

PR

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Ahem. More fun quotes.

 

"I always thought about that Garden of Eden story," said Ford.

 

"Eh?"

 

"Garden of Eden. Tree. Apple. That bit, remember?"

 

"Yes, of course I do."

 

"Your God person puts an apple tree in the middle of a garden and says, do what you like guys, oh, but don't eat the apple. Surprise suprirse, they eat it and he leaps out from behind a bush shouting 'Gotcha.' It wouldn't have made any difference if they hadn't eaten it."

 

"Why not?"

 

"Because if you're dealing with somebody who has the sort of mentality which likes leaving hats on the pavement with bricks under them you know perfectly well they won't give up. They'll get you in the end."

 

 

And about the incest bit....remember, it would have happened twice. After the Flood, it wasn't as if Noah's family had a whole lot of diversity to work with.

 

Also, consider that there's Jewish apocrypha citing the reason that Eve was created from Adam's rib as he slept was because there were two women created before her; Lilith, who was created equal with Adam, as they were joined at the back and God passed his/her/its hand through them to seperate them, and the unnamed wife who was created entirely in front of Adam's eyes - but he was so horrified at seeing her organs and blood that he never named her, and she was thus uncreated. So Lilith, who considered herself as strong and equal to Adam, was effectively kicked out for being so, the second wife was unnamed, and the third, Eve, was supposedly created to be less of a being than Adam, and yet still fucked up. That's quite a track record for the ol' Omniscient Creator there.

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I like the Arthur Miller version from "Creation of the World and Other Minor Business". See...Satan thought he was doing God a favor...after all, if they didn't understand good and evil, and all things were good, what incentive is there to multiply? It's just as good to pet a turtle as it is to boink...

 

But seriously, if BibleGod is omniscient, then he knew just what was going to happen. I've heard Christians argue that before...and that he set the whole thing up just so Jesus would have to be crucified! Basically, if it hadn't been for the first sin, BibleGod would have had no way of making mankind dependent on him for redemption.

 

I've always thought that Satan gets a bad rap in Christianity...after all, if he hadn't tempted Adam and Eve to sin, there'd be no need for Jesus, and their whole religion wouldn't exist. I think Christians need to give Satan some props.

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I mentioned this jokingly in another thread today, but it's more appropriate here I think. 

 

First, is not incest a sin?  I long ago discarded my bible, but I'm sure it's covered. 

 

Second, god created Adam and Eve and then told them be fruitful and multiply.  So multiply they did.  What about the second generation though.  Didn't Kane and Abel have to boink their sisters to carry on god's command to be fruitful?

 

Ahhh, so god commanded a sin.  That was awfully nice of him.

 

Hey Board,

 

My take is that both Adam & Eve and Noah and his family lived before Moses who the Law was given to. Prior to the Law, incest was not a sin.

 

Peace!

 

BtR

 

PS: Cool thread, Han.

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Guest WhatIsTruth9

Well in the OT BibleGod says that he was a jealous god. If he created sin to begin with then he did it so people would pay attention to his jealous and clingy ass, and offer him sacrifices be scared and obey his rules. A jealous, whiny and miserable person is only happy when he can make others miserable and draw attention to himself.

 

If you have haven't heard the Jewish version of how BibleGod choose them it goes like this.

 

BibleGod goes to every other nation on earth and they tell him to get the fuck out. They already have their own gods.

 

BibleGod goes to the Jews and they say "Ok...we don't have any gods"

 

BibleGod thinks, finally someone is paying attention to me! And so there it goes.

 

The whole thing with blaming women for sin, I think tends to be a Pauline Christian thing, as if you talk to any Jewish person, they would probably say that Adam and Eve are both to blame, because while Eve had the first bite, Adam had the knowledge that he wasn't supposed to do it and did it anyway.

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This is something that I started asking at the beginning of my stint in christianity.

Why didn't god create at bunch of people instead of just two.

 

Also this brings up the point that EVE is the root of SIN she fed Adam after chatting with the serpent. Now if god had made Adam & Steve with the ability to procreate then the whole thing would have worked!

 

Women + Knowledge=Sin (not my equation GODS)

 

PR

 

Hmm, well..

 

 

I think the Creation story was Created in order to make women second class citizens. No other reason. It is the base of all that's wrong with men, which of course is Women, with out us Men would have been perfect so say's the story. :nono:

 

It's the very root of the problem of chauvinists and women haters IMO. Not just in the Christian Culture, where wives are to be submissive to their husbands, but also in all Cultures that base their belief on the Creation story. Look how the Muslims view women for example. :twitch:

 

 

Adam is rarely ever held accountable for his actions, instead the fall of man is laid at the foot of women. It's such bullshit.

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Hey Board,

 

My take is that both Adam & Eve and Noah and his family lived before Moses who the Law was given to. Prior to the Law, incest was not a sin.

 

Peace!

 

BtR

 

PS: Cool thread, Han.

 

 

:twitch: Hey BTR, Murder was a "SIN" before the "Law" was given how you explain that? (Read Cain and Able)

 

Also, Your killing me here.. :lmao: How do you suppose Sodom and Gomorrah was destroyed if the "Law" wasn't given yet? according to you there was no "Sex" sin.

 

I'll wait while you try to weave your web of lame excuses..

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Guest WhatIsTruth9
Hey Board,

 

My take is that both Adam & Eve and Noah and his family lived before Moses who the Law was given to. Prior to the Law, incest was not a sin.

 

Peace!

 

BtR

 

PS: Cool thread, Han.

 

 

Um...as far as I know things like Murder where sins before Moses got his "law". Otherwise why would Cain be punished for Murder, and why would BibleGod get so pissed off, that he flooded the earth to get rid of the sin. :nono:

 

And besides..BibleGod didn't want you to have fun in any respect. Including sex. Wouldn't that still make incest wrong? I think so.

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Hey Board,

 

My take is that both Adam & Eve and Noah and his family lived before Moses who the Law was given to. Prior to the Law, incest was not a sin.

 

Peace!

 

BtR

 

PS: Cool thread, Han.

 

 

Are you arguing relativism? I thought that was a no no for you guys.

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...

Adam is rarely  ever held accountable for his actions, instead the fall of man is laid at the foot of women. It's such bullshit.

Yes and Adam was tempted by Eve (who was lesser than he) whereas Eve was tempted by a 'supernatural being'

 

<relevent probably not, I usually leave the brain stuff alone but this is a fun thread>

 

PR

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Um...as far as I know things like Murder where sins before Moses got his "law".  Otherwise why would Cain be punished for Murder, and why would BibleGod get so pissed off, that he flooded the earth to get rid of the sin. :nono:

 

And besides..BibleGod didn't want you to have fun in any respect.  Including sex.  Wouldn't that still make incest wrong?  I think so.

 

Right, and since when did the god who is the same yesterday today and tomorrow ever shift the rules?

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Yes and Adam was tempted by Eve (who was lesser than he) whereas Eve was tempted by a 'supernatural being'

 

<relevent probably not, I usually leave the brain stuff alone but this is a fun thread>

 

PR

 

And how could Eve be responsible for her actions since she had not yet eaten from the tree of knowlege? She didn't even have a concept of right and wrong.

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Hey Board,

 

My take is that both Adam & Eve and Noah and his family lived before Moses who the Law was given to. Prior to the Law, incest was not a sin.

 

Peace!

 

BtR

 

PS: Cool thread, Han.

 

:grin: You always make a twist explanation! Gotta Love it! Not a bad one, but very unique!

 

But what about the end part of the Eden story, “A man shall leave his mother and father …” and stuff? Isn’t that part used to explain monogamy?

 

So then BtR, what was the sin A&E committed? Was it disobedience or was in greed for knowledge? Just to throw you some more bones…

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Yes and Adam was tempted by Eve (who was lesser than he) whereas Eve was tempted by a 'supernatural being'

 

<relevent probably not, I usually leave the brain stuff alone but this is a fun thread>

 

PR

 

And the fruit was the fruit of knowledge, so A&E were schtupid, literally, while the snake was clever, sly, smart and educated, and had free will, so who had the upper hand here?

 

And where were the angels protecting the garden from snakes and other vermin before it happened?

 

Why did God place the angels to protect the garden after the fact???

 

It's like the 9/11, security at airports didn't take effect until something bad happened.

 

I think our own shortcomings are displayed unto God's character. God is just a fallible as us!

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Yes and Adam was tempted by Eve (who was lesser than he) whereas Eve was tempted by a 'supernatural being'

 

<relevent probably not, I usually leave the brain stuff alone but this is a fun thread>

 

PR

 

 

Well tempted isn't the right word, she supposedly "Tricked" him into sin, Adam is punished by having to leave the garden, till the land, work et al. That being said, the majority of faiths blame women for the fall of mankind. Which women are perpetually punished with labor pains and being second class citizens. Please don't misunderstand. I believe a large part of men today view women as an equal. I'm simply stating from a religious point of view.

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Also, consider that there's Jewish apocrypha citing the reason that Eve was created from Adam's rib as he slept was because there were two women created before her; Lilith, who was created equal with Adam, as they were joined at the back and God passed his/her/its hand through them to seperate them, and the unnamed wife who was created entirely in front of Adam's eyes - but he was so horrified at seeing her organs and blood that he never named her, and she was thus uncreated. So Lilith, who considered herself as strong and equal to Adam, was effectively kicked out for being so, the second wife was unnamed, and the third, Eve, was supposedly created to be less of a being than Adam, and yet still fucked up.    That's quite a track record for the ol' Omniscient Creator there.

 

 

I had never heard this before ... I did a little goggling and it's fascinating stuff. This to me clearly shows how the stories were never meant to be taken literally by those who wrote them down, but that they were just attempts to explain the 'world' through stories. I think perhaps 'religious' types (and I count myself in this box ... although I've given up my religion') are often people who understand things best by the telling of the stories.

 

I read out your account of the two other wives to my hubby and daughter (she's 14). My hubby responded with a 'yeah? so what - what's so interesting about that?' whilst my daughter's response was to say 'wow - that's amazing' and in the face of her Dad's continued non interest - she began unpicking the story for meaning and trying to translate the metaphor for him.

 

The 'meaning' behind Lilleth is pretty straightforward I guess but my daughter had no problem extracting ideas about the second wife as well -she came up with 'is it about the male tendency to put women on pedestals - about their love of mystery and allure - about not wanting women to be just flesh and blood the same as them' ...

 

This led to a really great discussion with my daughter about human sexual relationships, gender differences and sexual inequality. I guess we could have done this with a feminist essay or something - but she's a 'religious' type as well - and best accesses concepts and ideals via stories.

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Well tempted isn't the right word, she supposedly "Tricked" him into sin,  Adam is punished by having to leave the garden, till the land, work et al. That being said, the majority of faiths blame women for the fall of mankind. Which women are perpetually punished with labor pains and being second class citizens.  Please don't misunderstand. I believe  a large part of men today view women as an equal. I'm simply stating from a religious point of view.

It's interesting that the Bible says that Adam was with her when she was tempted and ate the fruit.

 

So he was to blame for the event, he just stood there as a fool in love and saw here commit the sin, and he just drooled and let her do it.

 

Maybe the original sin was stupidity?

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Hmm, well..

I think the Creation story was Created in order to make women second class citizens. No other reason. It is the base of all that's wrong with men, which  of course is Women, with out us Men would have been perfect so say's the story. :nono:

 

It's the very root of the problem of chauvinists and women haters IMO.  Not just in the Christian Culture, where wives are to be submissive to their husbands,  but also in all Cultures that base their belief on the Creation story. Look how the Muslims view women for example.  :twitch:

Adam is rarely  ever held accountable for his actions, instead the fall of man is laid at the foot of women. It's such bullshit.

 

I'm not sure that the blame for sexism can be laid at the door of the creation story ... is there any evidence to suggest that before this story was widely circulated men and women occupied equal status in society? (Maybe there is is - I actually don't know for sure ... I think the equalities existed before hand but I don't know if I'm just looking back on history with a particular mindset. I know there have been ancient cultures where women held more equal status but was it widespread?)

 

If men and women were already seen as equal I can't somehow see a story that made everything the woman's fault and required her to submit to men getting to be such a best seller round the tribal camp fire.

 

Although I can see a group of male leaders deciding 'this tales going to compulsary from now on because some of those arsey little lasses that sit in the back row and keep challenging everything we say are threatening our hold on the power'.

 

I know it might seem like a small difference to go from 'the creation story was created to make women second class citizens' to 'the creation story was created because women were being treated like second class citizens and patriarchal society had looked at this and seen it was good (for the men) and desired to keep it that way' but I think it makes a big difference in an understanding of the Bible and how it developed.

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It's interesting that the Bible says that Adam was with her when she was tempted and ate the fruit.

 

So he was to blame for the event, he just stood there as a fool in love and saw here commit the sin, and he just drooled and let her do it.

 

Maybe the original sin was stupidity?

 

Was he drooling over the fruit or the woman ... it could make a difference to the name of the sin!

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Ancient Egyptians held their women in high regard, didn't they?  They were allowed to have property and everything the same as a man.  I could swear that I saw, read or watched that somewhere.  There were a couple of female Pharoahs also, if memory serves.  We know of Cleopatra, but there is at least another one.

 

I remember really admiring them and their 40 laws.  They would recite them before death...

 

I have never murdered anyone.

I have never eavesdropped...

 

etc.,etc.

 

I know they were celebrated as life givers (Women). I haven't heard about the land and what not, but found this on PBS which is interesting.

 

 

PBS Egypt's Golden Empire

 

Cleopatra I know was really of Greek heritage and not a full blooded Egyptian.

 

Queen Neferetiti was a very powerful women also,but more so because of her husband then who she was.

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