Kirangel Posted September 11, 2007 Share Posted September 11, 2007 Aaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrghhhhhhhhhhhhh Okay, breathe...I feel a little better now. This is one thing that just annoys the hell out of me, when Christians make statements like that. When they say that there would be no reproof without God, people would go unchecked and they would magically turn evil and indulge in every vile aspect of life. I personally think that selfless acts are important to humanity (for those of you who don't think there is such a thing as selfless acts, then just showing kindness to others...giving a helping hand). I try to be kind. When I give donations to charities I do it in hopes that it will help out another human being. I don't do it because I think it will appease some amazingly awesome sky God. I don't know, maybe I shouldn't let it get to me so much but I take it as a slap in the face. I mean I'm not perfect I've done some shitty things in my life, but I don't think I lost all sense of morality when I stopped being Christian. I think I gained some because I no longer give money because God said so, I don't try to be kind to people just so I can go frolicking around in heaven after I die... I do it because I think it's important, we're all stuck here for some time, why not try to make it less miserable for each other? Maybe I should just play along next time. Say something like: "Yep you're right, I have sex every day with different people, mostly women. That's just in the morning, by 1 pm I'm filming porn, at 2 pm I work on my drug trafficking schemes and brainstorm different ways of selling it to teenagers. Then early evening, I run around the streets kicking dogs and then sneak in the churches to steal from them. And I do it all because I don't believe in God so I can get away with it." It's kind of shitty for them too, they're saying that without Christianity they would turn into monsters just because they didn't have a God looking down on them. Why don't they just think about these things before speaking and save me the mental anguish? blah...rant done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legion Posted September 11, 2007 Share Posted September 11, 2007 Yeah, that’s an old one. “You can’t be moral without God.†I think that was a fairly decent rant Kirangel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sage Nabooru Posted September 11, 2007 Share Posted September 11, 2007 Well, I try to argue that other religions and philosophies have morals too. It just turns out that just because a Hindu or atheist believes that killing is wrong, doesn't mean that they're moral. It just means that their morals seem right when they're actually wrong. If you're not abstaining from murder for Jesus, then you're abstaining from murder for SATAN. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirangel Posted September 11, 2007 Author Share Posted September 11, 2007 Yeah I'm sure the subject has already been exhausted. I've just been dealing with it lately though. I had to let off some steam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
junkpoet Posted September 11, 2007 Share Posted September 11, 2007 Yeah I'm sure the subject has already been exhausted. I've just been dealing with it lately though. I had to let off some steam. "A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death." - Albert Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
junkpoet Posted September 11, 2007 Share Posted September 11, 2007 sorry, just had to add another... “When I do bad, I feel bad. When I do good, I feel good. That’s my religion.†Abraham Lincoln Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. S. Martin Posted September 12, 2007 Share Posted September 12, 2007 sorry, just had to add another... “When I do bad, I feel bad. When I do good, I feel good. That’s my religion.†Abraham Lincoln Abe Lincoln? Okay. Ignoramus me. I thought that should say Dave Van Allen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. S. Martin Posted September 12, 2007 Share Posted September 12, 2007 Kirangel, I think next time Christianity sets out to trick people with half-truths and out-right lies it should be more subtle about it. Claiming sole monopoly on morals is so-so not true and so easily proven wrong that one wonders what else they are misrepresenting. I could prove them wrong without ever setting foot outside the community. Who do they think is running our country? Our hospitals? Our law-enforcement? Well, okay, I know some of them suck some of the time but some of them do great jobs some of the time. We got this far right-side-up because somebody is doing something right some of the time. Oh yeah now I remember, they're doing it all for Satan. Yeah right. Well, it doesn't much matter who they're doing it for so long as they're doing it. We'll let the great god in the sky do the sorting after the last trump has blown. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted September 12, 2007 Share Posted September 12, 2007 I still can't figure out if God is moral and is a Christian and have a God too or not... before that problem is solved, I think the argument is completely moot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lycorth Posted September 12, 2007 Share Posted September 12, 2007 Yeah, that’s an old one. “You can’t be moral without God.†I think that was a fairly decent rant Kirangel. Indeed It's (one of) the most annoying things Xians stamp their feet and proclaim as truth, despite the fact they have no way of proving it. Then again, their religion is rife with elitist moralizing, so it naturally follows that they think that only their religion is the source of human morality. Morality is best understood as a set of self-imposed rules of behavior, entirely man-made. Only then can humans come to a better understanding of morality and its usefulness, as opposed to believing some spook gave us a bunch of rules and that's that. We've seen what that leads to :angry: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legion Posted September 12, 2007 Share Posted September 12, 2007 Morality is best understood as a set of self-imposed rules of behavior, entirely man-made. I agree Varokhar. I guess men and women with intellects better than my own have tried to analyze morality. But really, it seems very simple to me. Most of it comes down to a "do unto others as you would have them do unto you." And I believe this "golden rule" predates Christianity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirangel Posted September 12, 2007 Author Share Posted September 12, 2007 Yeah, that’s an old one. “You can’t be moral without God.†I think that was a fairly decent rant Kirangel. Indeed It's (one of) the most annoying things Xians stamp their feet and proclaim as truth, despite the fact they have no way of proving it. Then again, their religion is rife with elitist moralizing, so it naturally follows that they think that only their religion is the source of human morality. Morality is best understood as a set of self-imposed rules of behavior, entirely man-made. Only then can humans come to a better understanding of morality and its usefulness, as opposed to believing some spook gave us a bunch of rules and that's that. We've seen what that leads to :angry: It makes it even worse when that spook gave us a bunch of rules that I personally find to be morally unsound. I started this post out of frustration because of a discussion on myspace. It's about same sex marriage. We got into religion a bit deeper so I sit there and read people saying how their God told them it was immoral and that is the end of it. This one guy tried to get them to at least question it, he said that if it has a negative impact and no positive one then maybe it didn't come from an all loving God. Then they say that we don't understand because we do not follow God or his laws so we can't understand it. I still am very hesitant about going too far with speaking down about someone else's beliefs (especially when the group is more aimed at Christians), and for the purpose of discussion I don't think it would get me anywhere, but I have called them out on the morality of their God. The first response they had for me was: "I'm not directing this at you specifically but you'll never find the truth if you don't search for it and you are stuck in the dark" There's the "you're blind" comment thrown at me again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke Wolf Posted September 12, 2007 Share Posted September 12, 2007 Well shit. Christianity does exist, and I can be a very vile person. Fucking fuckards don't fucking know what the fuck they are talking about. I started this post out of frustration because of a discussion on myspace. I've posted a few times on Myspace, but have found it too be filled with mindless, brainless, idiots. Especially on the religion boards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurisaz Posted September 12, 2007 Share Posted September 12, 2007 Every morontheist who hurls that type of shit in effect says that it bases all its morals on the crappy book - in other words, that it doesn't have any morals or ethics on its own. "Without da jebus cult there are no morals" thus translates into "We cultists don't have morals". 'nuff said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
מה טבו Posted September 12, 2007 Share Posted September 12, 2007 Most of it comes down to a "do unto others as you would have them do unto you." And I believe this "golden rule" predates Christianity. A story is told in the Talmud, Tractate Shabbat 31a. A man went to Rabbi Shammai and told him that he would convert if R. Shammai could teach him the entire Torah while he stood on one foot. R. Shammai chased him away with a builder's measuring stick. The gentile then went to Rabbi Hillel with the same question. R. Hillel responded, "What is hateful to you, do not to your neighbour: That is the whole Torah, while the rest is the commentary thereof; go and learn it." In fact, the verse that Christians like to quote "... love they neighbor as thyself." is actually in the Torah. Leviticus 19:18 / Parshat Kedoshim. The concept of treating others as you yourself would like to be treated is far from a uniquely Christian idea. In fact, some verison of the Golden Rule exists in at least 21 world religions, many of which predate Christianity by a long shot. There's the "you're blind" comment thrown at me again. Heheh. I've never had that one used on me in person. (I'm legally blind since birth. Dark glasses, cane, and all.) Even the most brazen have tended to stop before going there with me. //edit: I will give you a quick one-liner that I use when people point out my vision loss: "Yeah, but regular waxing keeps my palms silky smooth." I've gotten slack-jawed silence on more than one occasion using that one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted September 12, 2007 Share Posted September 12, 2007 TBH, without Christian thought, there would be a little more peace in the world (at least my little bit of if) since it would mean that there were fewer people I want to throw to the ground and kick some sense into... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
texmex2003 Posted September 12, 2007 Share Posted September 12, 2007 Without the Paulist, we probably would not have Islam. Life as we know it, would be different. However, it just would be another cult that wanted to rule the world. Just point out the "morals" of our leading evangelists, that should show that they do not own the "moral code" of the world. Greed-any TV minister will do just fine. Sex-Ted Haggard, Lonnie Latham, Jimmy Swaggert, Jim Bakker, etc. Murder-the Salem Witch Trials, the Inquistion, The BTK killer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurari Posted September 13, 2007 Share Posted September 13, 2007 Good rant. Christianity doesn't have a monopoly on morals...actually, most of their morals are repeated in most religions. Others that are much older than Christianity. If there was no Christianity, the same basic tenants of not killing, stealing, lying, and doing horrible things to other people would still exist. In fact, most of what's listed there is just basic common sense. Plus morality is simply defined as your sense of right and wrong. What is it about that definition indicates gods of any kind? Why can't having a sense of right and wrong be a natural human trait that comes with our naturally large brains and uniquely dexterous fingers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
מה טבו Posted September 13, 2007 Share Posted September 13, 2007 Plus morality is simply defined as your sense of right and wrong. What is it about that definition indicates gods of any kind? Why can't having a sense of right and wrong be a natural human trait that comes with our naturally large brains and uniquely dexterous fingers? Actually, evolutionary psychology has its own explanation for morality - altruism may have an evolutionary benefit. For a quick introduction, see this article from The Stranger on "Why You're Not a Complete Ass." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldjew Posted September 14, 2007 Share Posted September 14, 2007 Xians themselves have no morals as atheist have 99% more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garrisonjj Posted September 14, 2007 Share Posted September 14, 2007 Morality is best understood as a set of self-imposed rules of behavior, entirely man-made. I agree Varokhar. I guess men and women with intellects better than my own have tried to analyze morality. But really, it seems very simple to me. Most of it comes down to a "do unto others as you would have them do unto you." And I believe this "golden rule" predates Christianity. Absolutely correct! Fucking religions, church services and the fear of hell do not embillish the golden rule. I believe this predates religious concepts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robbobrob Posted September 14, 2007 Share Posted September 14, 2007 I'm not a big fan of the golden rule. It assumes everyone who is obeying it is a decent person, and there are just some people who are not people I want doing anything to me that they would want done to themselves. Really, we are, as the Christians are (and televangelists prove), free to do whatever we want. Christians are children and need the threat of Daddy God to keep them in line (yet he fails a lot, doesn't he?). It does frieghten me when I've heard Christians admit if there was no God, they would kill and rape and steal. Free thinkers act as adults, and as such, choose to act morally, because we see the benefits it brings to society and ourselves. Rather meet a Free Thinker in a dark alley than a Christian. Either the Christian is there to do something bad, or will attack me because they delusionally think I am there to do something bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted September 14, 2007 Share Posted September 14, 2007 The Golden Rule has flaws, and very unstable as a guideline. Like Rob said, it assumes that the person following that rule already is doing the "right" things. It's circular. Morality = Do to others what you want them do to you => What you want others to do to you is moral. - Which clearly isn't a good definition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
מה טבו Posted September 14, 2007 Share Posted September 14, 2007 The Golden Rule has flaws, and very unstable as a guideline. Like Rob said, it assumes that the person following that rule already is doing the "right" things. It's circular. Morality = Do to others what you want them do to you => What you want others to do to you is moral. - Which clearly isn't a good definition. This is why I prefer Hillel's "that which is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor." Basically, Hillel just says don't be a dick. The Golden Rule (as described by Josh of Nazareth) wouldn't be so bad if it were taken in context. If people applied the Golden Rule with the understanding that people have differing desires and circumstances, and that in order to understand how you'd want to be treated, you have to assess how you'd want to be treated in their circumstance - then this would be a real moral good. A lot of people (including, but not limited to Christians) forget that part. For example, a proselytizing Christian thinks, "well, if I were going to hell, I'd want someone to save my soul." They don't think "if I didn't believe this stuff, I'd probably get sick of hearing it all the time." Context is left out. And this is the important thing about morality - context. A lot of people decry this as moral relativism and dangerous, but it's actually a critical part of being a genuinely ethical person. One has to evaluate a situation before determining the best way to act in it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted September 14, 2007 Share Posted September 14, 2007 "What you want others to do to you is moral. " OK, you just know for some people that's being tied naked over a vaulting horse, while someone in Rocky Horror Show make-up and a leather Basque, lightly spanking their oiled buttocks with a riding crop, while reciting 'Pet Shop Boys' lyrics... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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