Legion Posted September 14, 2007 Share Posted September 14, 2007 "What you want others to do to you is moral. " OK, you just know for some people that's being tied naked over a vaulting horse, while someone in Rocky Horror Show make-up and a leather Basque, lightly spanking their oiled buttocks with a riding crop, while reciting 'Pet Shop Boys' lyrics... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted September 14, 2007 Share Posted September 14, 2007 and that is all but impossible to explain to your mother. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted September 14, 2007 Share Posted September 14, 2007 All so true. Morality is multi leveled. One of the first levels are: DO NOT do to others what you DO NOT what them do to you. - what I'd call the minimalist rule. (Hillel's Don't be a Dick, like Tovu said) The next level is more of a selfish survival and "what do I want in the long run for my life". The target, goal, vision of my future-self. But this should be done without breaking the first rule, since being a jerk could actually hinder me from accomplish my goals of life. (meaning of life) And the next level is more complicated, when it comes to arbitrary ideas of what altruism is and what it is not. That is very localized, not absolute, not relative, but defined by culture and situation. No one can say for sure for all situation what is the right thing to do. (justice and cultural rules) Well, I don't know. It's just thoughts... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amethyst Posted September 15, 2007 Share Posted September 15, 2007 Han has a good point, I think. A lot of people are moral because they avoid punishment that way. Certainly even more people would do stupid stuff if we didn't have deterrents in society. I think, though, that it benefits society as a whole in the long run if people are ethical. Think how fast we'd be living in the dark ages again if nobody was ethical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted September 15, 2007 Share Posted September 15, 2007 Han has a good point, I think. A lot of people are moral because they avoid punishment that way. Certainly even more people would do stupid stuff if we didn't have deterrents in society. I think, though, that it benefits society as a whole in the long run if people are ethical. Think how fast we'd be living in the dark ages again if nobody was ethical. True. In the dark ages, most of the groups of unethical people got killed while killing each other. The problem is that highly "moral" people will not kill unethical people, and there will be potential killes left (wolfs in sheep clothing). Hence you will reach some kind of equilibrium of a majority of ethical people who will not kill others, and a small group of people who potentially will kill people. (And I noticed I spelled like a crow in the previous post) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legion Posted September 15, 2007 Share Posted September 15, 2007 I think co-operation pays off. So why not be nice? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted September 15, 2007 Share Posted September 15, 2007 I think co-operation pays off. So why not be nice? That's the key. It pays off, but who does it pay off too? Well, to you! So selfishness can support altruism. Why am I married? Because I love my wife, but also because when I get old I want someone with me that knows me and I'm not gonna be alone. Do I want her to be happy? Sure, because when she gets what she wants, I know I can get what I want. Why do I have kids, of similar reasons. And why do I take care of them? Because if they succeed I can be proud and see how good parent I was. Selfish? You bet. But people think I'm a very kind and loving person. They should only know how much a selfish bastard I am... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legion Posted September 15, 2007 Share Posted September 15, 2007 I think co-operation pays off. So why not be nice? That's the key. It pays off, but who does it pay off too? Well, to you! So selfishness can support altruism. Why am I married? Because I love my wife, but also because when I get old I want someone with me that knows me and I'm not gonna be alone. Do I want her to be happy? Sure, because when she gets what she wants, I know I can get what I want. Why do I have kids, of similar reasons. And why do I take care of them? Because if they succeed I can be proud and see how good parent I was. Selfish? You bet. But people think I'm a very kind and loving person. They should only know how much a selfish bastard I am... I agree; selfishness can actually promote altruism. We are eukaryotes. Our cells have mitochondria. It is believed by many scientists that mitochondria were once free living organisms. But at some point they grew to co-operate with other cells, our cells, to the point of actually being internalized in those cells. Why? Probably because it was beneficial to both. Yin and Yang baby. Co-operate and compete. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted September 15, 2007 Share Posted September 15, 2007 Amen to that. And it's also believed that the mitochondria was a, or part of a virus. So it's a parasite that helps us survive. When the mtDNA fails, we get cancer. And also, I just connected how important it is to understand the tit-for-tat rule (game theory) applied to life, but also to business. That's how successful people really make it big. They understand how they can make progress by helping others get what they want. Religion teaches you to give without reason, and it will make you keep on failing. And that is also business and politics. The leaders want the majority have religion, because that gives them what they want (emotionalism, non-answers for questions, dull their minds) so the leaders can do what they want. Religion is the fake, pseudo product, that looks like the real thing, but is just a sugar pill. People take it, and the few that knows otherwise, they use it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. S. Martin Posted September 15, 2007 Share Posted September 15, 2007 And also, I just connected how important it is to understand the tit-for-tat rule (game theory) applied to life, but also to business. That's how successful people really make it big. They understand how they can make progress by helping others get what they want. Religion teaches you to give without reason, and it will make you keep on failing. And that is also business and politics. The leaders want the majority have religion, because that gives them what they want (emotionalism, non-answers for questions, dull their minds) so the leaders can do what they want. Religion is the fake, pseudo product, that looks like the real thing, but is just a sugar pill. People take it, and the few that knows otherwise, they use it. If this is true, then I'm beginning to see light. Religion throws all these non-questions at me in the form of questions. So I answer them. Or it throws all these non-answers at me in the form of answers so I question them. In either case, people get raving mad at me when I respond to their statement/question as logic dictates. I'm simply treating them as I want to be treated--when I ask a question I want an answer, when I make a statement I want it to be acknowledged. So why do they get so mad at me when I keep the Golden Rule (as the insist I must)? Treating religion as a reality would expose its fakenss, its pseudo product status. It would panic the masses. So they kill the messenger....I see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted September 15, 2007 Share Posted September 15, 2007 Ruby, Interesting... you're very likely right. And I also agree with a (in)famous person who said that religion is opium to the people. It is a drug. And as any true addict does, they blame everyone else, they defend their habit, and they would kill to keep it status quo. And you also can see the after effects when someone leaves it, they get depressed, they miss it, it's easy to fall back into it at first, but when you realize how destructive it was to you, you start rejecting it with gusto. Religion is also very much like fast food. It tastes good, but it's bad for you body. You get some nutrition, but not like the real home made, fresh products based, food. Why is it that USA got so many overweight people? One reason is that they eat wrong and don't do the right things, and it's because it's full of the lazy-car-driving-fast-food-eating-please-me-and-fulfill-all-my-desires people that apply the same attitude to life and faith. "Give me the fast food religion, and I don't care if it contains posion. I have no time to figure out what to believe, so tell me what to believe." And with the big marketing campains driven and funded by mega-churches and Christian based corporations, no wonder people rather take the product that got the most shiny and impressive package, without ever reading the "contents" label. I don't think we really live in the time of the "takers" generation. People don't take what they want. They expect to be served and given. They don't want to research and figure out things, they want to sit on a throne and be served the food, religion and entertainment, and they don't realize that the organizations feeding them have their own agenda and want something out of it... power and control. ... ooops, I started on a rant about politics and democracy here... but I removed it. I don't want to derail the topic too much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldjew Posted September 16, 2007 Share Posted September 16, 2007 Christians got morals? Have chickens got teeth? Can pigs fly? If Christians have got morals I am a black African Chinese Apache Englishman of German decent from Kalamazoo. Why they have no idea what the word even means. In fact their god has no more morals that a potato laying in the middle of the interstate during rush hour. Why their god has a much morals as a crack addict pimping donkeys to cattle. Why if Christians have morals President Bush is the greatest peace maker this world has ever known. If Christians have morals then hell is the North Pole and heaven is Death Valley California. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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