Life After Death?

[SWIM]

Hello Folks!

 

This is my first post on this board, I only recently discovered it.

 

A little about me so you know where I am coming from. I am 47 years old, retired, and live in Florida. My father was RC but not my mother, she was more of a passive christian, non-denomination. I was not forced into the Catholic church, but I was forced to go to church every sunday.

 

One of the things that made me a strong christian as a child was my mother's tale of her near death experience where she recounts seeing jesus in her "experience". Later in life I came to understand that people see what they expect to see on their death bed, as a result of the dying brain.

 

I am not a recent exchristian, I have not had faith for close to 30 years now. I have always been a "closet" agnostic because there are just too many people in my "world" that claim xtianity as their own. (My wife included). One of the things that irritates my by the believers in my family is that they think I am going to go to hell... I just hate that air of superiority, them "feeling sorry for me, praying for me etc etc", so I just don't talk about it.

 

I noticed here that most of you are atheists. That's fine, I walk a fine borderline of being one too. I identify as an agnostic, not so much because "I believe", but because I have theories. I do not have faith in any of my beliefs and can change what I feel might be probable at the drop of a hat.

 

Dying and being dead seems horrible to a lot of people, but I don't really have a problem with that. Think about it. What greater absolute peace could there be besides non-existance? No pain, no worries, never be bored, in fact it pretty much could be the ultimate peace!

 

I want to share with you a couple of ghost stories I have.

 

 

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Can the dead speak to us?

 

I can answer this personally with a resounding YES. Let me start this article off with my own stories. First off, I do not consider these "ghost stories" because they do not fit that category entirely, at least not in the traditional sense.

 

The Story of Hi-Jack The Fisherman

 

During a time when I was young I was a commercial snapper fisherman. I was unskilled, and very young, so the only boats I could get a job with were the older more dangerous boats. As snapper fishermen we would go out for about a month at a time in the gulf of mexico. I met a man that was also a fisherman, and he was very infatuated with my mother who tended a fisherman's bar near the marina.

 

His name was Jack, a hard core alcoholic and very jovial in nature. He was the kind of person who was always laughing, even when drunk (more so even). He was a gentle man and easy to get along with. We called him "hi-Jack" because whenever I saw him and said "Hi Jack" he would respond with a "High jack who?" in a loud humorous fashion. He loved my mother very much, though she had little to do with him.

 

We heard a rumor that Jack had died, he had fallen overboard while out at sea. We did not confirm it at the time, since we really were not very close to him, just an acquaintance. One night he came into a bar that I was in, it was only me and the barmaid (not my mom) since it was late and the bar was about to close. I was opening the door about to leave, when there he was in the doorway! What a surprise! I said "Jack I thought you were dead". He told me not to believe everything I hear, but he did NOT come right out and deny it either.

 

He was different, he had a more intelligent, deeper look in his eyes,and he held himself better, more confident, but not arrogant. I offered him a beer, which he took, but he never took a drink of it. Unusual since he was an alcoholic, even more unusual was the fact that he was sober late at night!

 

We sat at the bar, and he asked me how I was, but mostly he talked about my mother. He was very much in love with her and felt it important that I know that. He got up and left, walked down the street to the other bar, and that was the last time I saw him.

 

My mother had a similar experience, he walked into her bar (there were people there, not empty like the bar I was in), sat with her and had a long talk with her. After saying his "I have always loved you" speech, he took off heading for the marina.

 

The After Death Communication:

 

The next day my mother and I talked about this, and agreed that it was very odd. I later went to the fish house and asked about him, and sure enough he really had died! I later talked to Donna, the barmaid where I spoke to him, and she says he never was there and that I was sleeping at the end of the bar while she was preparing to close, and that no one sat with me...

 

The people that were in my mother's bar told my mother that during that time she was also alone, and had her head down at the bar, like she was resting or sleeping...

 

Could we both have had the same dream? Was it all in our minds? I don't think so, to me this profoundly convinced me that we do survive death, and that the dead can communicate.

 

 

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My Dog Wolf

 

Later on I migrated back to the north where my father lived (my parents were divorced). We had a dog that I grew up with named "wolf". I went to feed and water him, he lived outside chained to a tree, and there was something profoundly different about him. You see, wolf was a happy dog, puppy like his whole life, tongue hanging out, jumping around, etc. But this time he was very different. He look regal, almost majestic and proud, and a look of intelligence was in his eyes, a look I have never seen in him before. He laid his head in my lap and looked up at me, a feeling of love and togetherness washed over me from him, a feeling that made me concerned that he may be sick or something. It was almost like he was saying goodbye.

 

The next day while outside near the area where we kept him chained, I could smell something bad, like a dead animal. Investigating, I discovered wolf's body around the other side of the tree he was chained to, in a hole he dug (he liked to dig), but out of view from where I was the day before when I was visiting with him. His body was decomposed badly. The eyes were even gone. My dad had been on a drunk before I arrived and had neglected him to death. But I saw him the day before... How? His body was too decomposed to have happened overnight...

 

The After Death Communication:

 

It hit me. It was my dog's spirit, he was saying goodbye. This re-affirmed my belief in the afterlife, and also showed me that animals have spirit too, not just people like some religions would have you believe. This simple, sweet animal also had the ability to communicate after he died.

 

 

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My Grandmother's Funeral

 

(This is many years later) My Grandmother on my father's side suffered for many years with Alzheimer's disease. I was close to her, and loved her when I was a child, but did not stay in touch with her over the years. She passed away and I was over a thousand miles away and could not attend her funeral. Several years later, my father began to die from liver failure. Times were better then, so I was able to afford to come stay with him in his final days.

 

After my father died, the night before the funeral I had a vivid dream. It was set in a cemetery near an open grave site, with flowers and a picnic table type bench with a covered awning over it. On the bench sat my Grandmother, with my cousin Randy. She was of very clear mind, but had a serious, almost sad look about her, much different then when she was alive. Randy being there was puzzling because I was not close to Randy and seldom thought about him (so why would he be in the dream?). My grandmother was saying goodbye to us, and wished us well.

 

The After Death Communication:

 

Later, when we buried my father (near my grandmother, same cemetery) I was surprised to see that the cemetery, which I never saw before in my life, looked identical to the one in the dream! Also the setting, with the picnic table bench and awning were the same as well! But the real kicker was when I talked to Randy and mentioned the dream, he had a similar one AND it turns out that Randy and I were the only relatives that did NOT attend her funeral!

 

I have had other spiritual encounters in my life, but the above three convinced me beyond any shadow of a doubt that we do survive death, and that we can indeed communicate after we are gone.

 

 

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After Life Communication Rules

 

All these stories share a common thread. There appear to be rules to communicating with the living, rules that are strictly adhered to. I have confirmed this by examining other people's ghost stories, people that I know and trust. These are the rules:

 

1. You are not allowed to scare anyone. If your appearance is going to frighten that person, then visiting them is not allowed. This is why most afterlife communication is done through dreams, its easy to dismiss something as a dream, therefore you are not frightened. In both Hi-jack and Wolf's cases above, I did not really "know" they were dead at the time of the visit, so there was no need to be scared.

 

2. You cannot reveal what goes on after death. Never have I encountered a ghost or ghost story (that I felt was genuine) where the spirit said anything at all about the afterlife.

 

3. You are not allowed to talk about material things. Again, never have I had or heard of a real experience where the loved one spoke about money, houses, cars or any other thing material.

 

These three rules I feel apply to true communications with the other side, Be wary of any communication that does not follow these rules.

 

 

Interestingly I have come up with a "ghost" theory, one that pretty much "fits" and explains why nobody can photograph a ghost.

 

I think it's a mental thing, in other words, it happens inside your own head. If energy cannot be created or destroyed, then it stands to reason that when we die we are "released", no body, brain or anything. In order to "appear" to someone, it has to be done by the "spirit" (for lack of a better word) invading the mind of the living and stimulating some area of the brain to cause a "vision". Thus it cannot be photograhed or recorded.

 

Bear in mind these things a speak of are theories of my own, not concrete beliefs. In light of my experience it is very hard for me to be full blown athiest, however my understanding of life the universe and everything is probably equivalent to a puppy staring up at a scientist's chalk board full of equations. The puppy has no idea what the stuff means, and being a puppy, stands no chance whatsoever of understanding it.

 

A few ideas about time:

 

Do you folks believe time travel is possible? I am unsure if it is or not. IF it is possible does that mean that somewhere in the past, which would be the present if I traveled back there, am I still alive? After I die, will this "window" I call "myself" close and re-open inside the mind of the baby me back in 1961?

 

We cannot remember our past lives (if we even had them) I think because memory is a product of cells in the brain "recording" events. Since you no longer have the cells of you past life's bodies brain, it would make it impossible to remember, since there is no physical record in your head.

 

Another thing. If infinity is TRULY infinity, no beginning or end, then it is kind of like a "rolling number" by that I mean -(99999999spining)(spinning 999999999)+ Now, if infinity is true, and time is also infinite, does not the existence of just one, mathimatically prove the exisitance of countless others of the same? In otherwords, some unknown science caused me to "appear" in this window of consciousness. Does that mean that "I" will again appear somewhere in infinity based on the fact I exisit now?

 

Do you folks that are not total atheists have any similar theories? I would be very interested in reading them!

[trashy]

any chance this thread can get moved into the 'theism or spirituality' forum?

[SWIM]

any chance this thread can get moved into the 'theism or spirituality' forum?

 

 

Why? Isn't curiousity about the afterlife part of a lot of ex-christian's life?

[Robbobrob]

Welcome to the boards.

 

If there is an afterlife where our consciousness lives on, I hope that it is not directly connected to the physical universe. Knowing that dead relatives are watching me when I'm doing sexual things is not the way life should be lived.

 

I am not convinced that there is a place where our consciousness remains intact. Our bodies are what hold that energy together. Once the body lets go, what is left to keep the "soul" (for lack of a better word for the energy considered our consciousness and mind) in one piece. It should, as energy does when it is not contained in a field, dissipate. This is when I feel particularly Atheistic.

 

A different theory I have kicked around, when in a more theistic mindset, is that our souls all merge back into a spiritual whole, "Heaven", where we lose our individuality and blend back into the One. Kind of like our soul is a teaspoon of water, and it is dropped into a pool, a lake, an ocean. And when a baby is concieved, a random sampling of energy is scooped up and sent down into the embryo. Not reincarnation, because it would be highly improbable to get the exact same mix of soul from one baby to the next.

 

Course, take anything I say with a grain of salt....I am holding out hope that Heaven has bunless hot dogs, beer valcanos, and stripper factories.

[Legion]

Isn't curiousity about the afterlife part of a lot of ex-christian's life?

Michael, welcome to the forums. We are not a homogeneous group. Our beliefs are wide spread and we often have disagreements with ourselves. In other words, we are not of one mind.

[SWIM]

Welcome to the boards.

 

If there is an afterlife where our consciousness lives on, I hope that it is not directly connected to the physical universe. Knowing that dead relatives are watching me when I'm doing sexual things is not the way life should be lived.

 

LOL I know what you mean, I wouldn't want them watch me do the nasty either.

 

I am not convinced that there is a place where our consciousness remains intact. Our bodies are what hold that energy together. Once the body lets go, what is left to keep the "soul" (for lack of a better word for the energy considered our consciousness and mind) in one piece. It should, as energy does when it is not contained in a field, dissipate. This is when I feel particularly Atheistic.

 

Sounds reasonable. Also it is our brains that store our past experiences in the form of memories. Those memories in part shape our personality. But what is interesting is that "I" came about once. Right now in this lifetime. In infinity shouldn't it be possible to Come about again?

 

In my ghost stories I wrote that I had no doubt in an afterlife, but I wrote that article for my website a few years back, I have doubts now. Just because me and Mom shared a similar experence can be explained by telepathy or some other thing unknown to me, in otherwords even for me, the guy who experienced it, I still have doubts.

 

A different theory I have kicked around, when in a more theistic mindset, is that our souls all merge back into a spiritual whole, "Heaven", where we lose our individuality and blend back into the One. Kind of like our soul is a teaspoon of water, and it is dropped into a pool, a lake, an ocean. And when a baby is concieved, a random sampling of energy is scooped up and sent down into the embryo. Not reincarnation, because it would be highly improbable to get the exact same mix of soul from one baby to the next.

 

I have kicked that one around too, it is in my bag of maybes.

 

Course, take anything I say with a grain of salt....I am holding out hope that Heaven has bunless hot dogs, beer valcanos, and stripper factories.

 

I hope its full of hot chicks and weed myself

[SWIM]

Isn't curiousity about the afterlife part of a lot of ex-christian's life?

Michael, welcome to the forums. We are not a homogeneous group. Our beliefs are wide spread and we often have disagreements with ourselves. In other words, we are not of one mind.

 

As it should be. You all would be quite boring of you all thought alike! That's why I said "part of a lot of" as opposed to "part of everyone's"

 

Thanks for the welcome guys

[Piprus]

any chance this thread can get moved into the 'theism or spirituality' forum?

 

 

Why? Isn't curiousity about the afterlife part of a lot of ex-christian's life?

Not necessarily. Many if not most of us believe that the whole of what we are is in the here and now, and that's plenty enough to occupy our time and efforts. At death we apparently cease to exist and revert to what we were before birth. If there is any afterlife at all, and there's no evidence that there is, then it will take care of itself, but we would probably be some kind of totally different being with its own sense of existence...in another time, another world, another universe perhaps. Too big to ponder over, and too easily relegated to fantasy.

[Deva]

A different theory I have kicked around, when in a more theistic mindset, is that our souls all merge back into a spiritual whole, "Heaven", where we lose our individuality and blend back into the One. Kind of like our soul is a teaspoon of water, and it is dropped into a pool, a lake, an ocean. And when a baby is concieved, a random sampling of energy is scooped up and sent down into the embryo. Not reincarnation, because it would be highly improbable to get the exact same mix of soul from one baby to the next.

 

I am almost in agreement with the above statement, with some differences in wording. I just wouldn't use the words "soul" and "heaven".

 

Nondualism - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nondualism seems to me to be more in line with the true nature of reality. To really determine if there is life after death, one must know the true nature of life and consciousness now. Are we really individuals or is this an illusion? What is the nature of consciousness? There are many deep and complex questions involved.

 

My views are subject to revision, but I have always thought that consciousness survives the death of the body.

I don't see how memories survive, but something like tendencies or patterns of energy may carry over into another form. I know I can't prove it but if the nature of reality is nondual, what could ever truly be created or destroyed?

 

I have also played around with the idea of the eternal reoccurrance. Given enough time, could it all not happen again?

[R. S. Martin]

any chance this thread can get moved into the 'theism or spirituality' forum?

 

 

Why? Isn't curiousity about the afterlife part of a lot of ex-christian's life?

Not necessarily. Many if not most of us believe that the whole of what we are is in the here and now, and that's plenty enough to occupy our time and efforts. At death we apparently cease to exist and revert to what we were before birth. If there is any afterlife at all, and there's no evidence that there is, then it will take care of itself, but we would probably be some kind of totally different being with its own sense of existence...in another time, another world, another universe perhaps. Too big to ponder over, and too easily relegated to fantasy.

 

Piprus, thank you for that "statement of faith." You left religion decades ago yet you can still apply an almost poetic speech to a topic that Christians claim atheists refuse to think about. I'm struggling with the "atheists are monsters" image my family imposes on me. What I read in this thread is so opposite of that.

 

Michael, I think the reason trashy asked whether this thread would be moved is that fairly recently a new section was opened for people who aren't "quite atheist" because they felt uncomfortable discussing their spiritualities with "complete atheists." It seems you have no problem. I don't know what the mods will decide about this thread.

 

You're three-four years younger than I am and you are asking the exact same questions I was asking at your age. I invite you to at least take a look at my forums where I discuss some of these questions. Click on the website in my sig and it will take you to the forums.

[SWIM]

any chance this thread can get moved into the 'theism or spirituality' forum?

 

 

Why? Isn't curiousity about the afterlife part of a lot of ex-christian's life?

Not necessarily. Many if not most of us believe that the whole of what we are is in the here and now, and that's plenty enough to occupy our time and efforts. At death we apparently cease to exist and revert to what we were before birth. If there is any afterlife at all, and there's no evidence that there is, then it will take care of itself, but we would probably be some kind of totally different being with its own sense of existence...in another time, another world, another universe perhaps. Too big to ponder over, and too easily relegated to fantasy.

 

Piprus, thank you for that "statement of faith." You left religion decades ago yet you can still apply an almost poetic speech to a topic that Christians claim atheists refuse to think about. I'm struggling with the "atheists are monsters" image my family imposes on me. What I read in this thread is so opposite of that.

 

Michael, I think the reason trashy asked whether this thread would be moved is that fairly recently a new section was opened for people who aren't "quite atheist" because they felt uncomfortable discussing their spiritualities with "complete atheists." It seems you have no problem. I don't know what the mods will decide about this thread.

 

You're three-four years younger than I am and you are asking the exact same questions I was asking at your age. I invite you to at least take a look at my forums where I discuss some of these questions. Click on the website in my sig and it will take you to the forums.

 

I have no problem talking to atheists or anyone else for that matter, as long as they possess a measurable level of intelligence.

 

Well if you feel you are further along the elightenment ladder then me due to a mere 3ish year difference, I guess you are entitled to that opinion, I dont feel any real evolution or growing, quite simply I just gots a bunch of questions, not "burning ones" just interesting ideas I like to talk about.

 

Thank you for the link. It was informative, but unless I am missing something, nothing in that site was on the subject of my original post.... Of course I have not read the threads, but none of the titles seemed even close? I will take a look at it later on more in depth.

[R. S. Martin]

I think I have now read the entire thread. I thought I read all the stories and posts before but it seems I missed a few. There's a few more theories in there about reincarnation than I had picked up at first.

 

I'm heading to my fifty-first birthday. My guess is most of you are somewhat younger than I am. I don't know if this is a good excuse but I feel totally exhausted from all the decades of questioning--and finding zero answers. I know others over age forty have talked like this, too, so maybe it's not just me.

 

There are all those voices of authority--parents, other relatives, preachers and other church leaders--drilling endlessly in my head how we absolutely dare not let up the good fight, how we absolutely MUST believe what we were told. But guess what. These people--most of them--were probably younger than I am now when they said this stuff...Okay I did a bit of math just now. My mother's influence on my beliefs was probably biggest up till she was age 54--that is only three years older than I am now. The teaching began when she was in her mid-twenties. Some of my preachers and teachers were that young, too. This means I'm twice the age of some of the people whose authority I was expected to live by. And I am today punished for rejecting those same people's authority.

 

One of my biggest problems when I lived way over my mid-thirties was that Jesus never learned how to cope with life beyond his mid-thirties. He did not have to develop a coping strategy for impossible life situations that lasted half a century or longer. Like one of my professors said, back when marriage laws were insituted, life expectancy was so short that a ten year marriage was a long time. Now a days, marriage is a 60-year life sentence.

 

I wasn't stuck in a bad marriage but it was an impossible situation and neither Jesus nor religion leaves us any guidelines on how to deal with it. Only psychology gives us any indication. I would say even psychology is too new. How many sixty-year longitudinal marriages has psychology had time to examine since Freud developed his theories in the 1930s? Psychology is still in its infancy! I don't think one such test has been done yet. Besides, people haven't been used to living long enough for that. People born about 1890 were the first generation of whom significant numbers lived to be ninty or a hundred years old. And that is the kind of population we need in order to study sixty-year marriages with any level of meaningfulness.

 

There may be only one generation in which such a population is likely to be found in large numbers--people who were born in the 1920s-1940s and got married in the 1940s-1960s and stayed married for life, and who will also live to be very old. That would be the generation that is entering nursing homes while also looking after very old parents and possibly babysitting great-grandchildren at this very moment.

 

Whoa! I'm talking like a-uh-yeah--might as well confess it--I guess I'm talking like a social scientist or something. Well, even if I weren't, these things would still be happening. And life would still be just as complicated. And we still don't have any guidelines from religion or from Jesus or from anybody else on how to live so long because this is news even for our old people and it's not good news for a lot of them, by the sounds of it. Uh, I guess the topic of this thread was the AFTER-life.

 

I'm also supposedly a theologian so I should know something about an aferlife. (All this talk about bodies being born at different times makes me think about an afterbirth--isn't there a relationship???) Now I went back to read the beginnings of this post. I see I wandered quite a bit. I personally really like what Piprus says. On top of that, the seminary where I am studying Christian theology, the professors do not think that there is an afterlife. The emphasis is on finding peace in this life, in living well in this life.

 

I asked my thesis supervisor, with whom I have also taken several other courses, why he thinks religion is of value if he does not believe in hell. He replied that he thinks it make people feel better or happier. I think that if this is a person's experience, then it is a legitimate reason for being religious. The religion they teach at that seminary is the most humane religion I have yet seen and I think it is what Jesus had in mind. My only problem is the theology. I have been unable to find out why it hangs together for others when it doesn't for me.

[R. S. Martin]

Thank you for the link. It was informative, but unless I am missing something, nothing in that site was on the subject of my original post.... Of course I have not read the threads, but none of the titles seemed even close? I will take a look at it later on more in depth.

 

Yeah, you'd have to look at the threads. No obligations but I think some of the threads are of the same topic.

 

I am not sure if I am "further along" but in the past I was asking questions I've basically stopped asking. I'm not sure what would happen if someone like you started taking my theories apart. Maybe my interest would be rekindled. Who knows. But maybe my theories are so far from your own that you're not interested.

[trashy]

any chance this thread can get moved into the 'theism or spirituality' forum?

 

 

Why? Isn't curiousity about the afterlife part of a lot of ex-christian's life?

Sure it is (not sure about a 'lot' but...)

 

But the moderators came up with a whole forum for such topics. And your post seemed to be a big "ghosts are real, here's how I know" so.....

[Robbobrob]

A different theory I have kicked around, when in a more theistic mindset, is that our souls all merge back into a spiritual whole, "Heaven", where we lose our individuality and blend back into the One. Kind of like our soul is a teaspoon of water, and it is dropped into a pool, a lake, an ocean. And when a baby is concieved, a random sampling of energy is scooped up and sent down into the embryo. Not reincarnation, because it would be highly improbable to get the exact same mix of soul from one baby to the next.

 

I am almost in agreement with the above statement, with some differences in wording. I just wouldn't use the words "soul" and "heaven".

I do acknowledge that the words are very troublesome, since they connote specific things to most people. If I had had other words to use at the time of writin, I would have.

[Deva]

I do acknowledge that the words are very troublesome, since they connote specific things to most people. If I had had other words to use at the time of writin, I would have.

 

Didn't mean to sound critical, Robborob. I very much appreciated your point of view. Also, I did notice you put Heaven in quotes. Words are indeed difficult sometimes.

[SWIM]

I'm heading to my fifty-first birthday. My guess is most of you are somewhat younger than I am. I don't know if this is a good excuse but I feel totally exhausted from all the decades of questioning--and finding zero answers. I know others over age forty have talked like this, too, so maybe it's not just me.

 

Well, one of the reasons that I personally am not exhausted with my questions is because they are not burning enough. Besides, I don't really seek "answers" because there are none other then really good questions and plausable theories. I pretty much find ZERO answers too, but its the questions that I find the most interesting.

 

Age imo, is never a determining factor on intelligence. I have relatives far older then I am that are basically dumb as a stump. Other things come into play. IQ, memory capacity, willingness to think outside the box, common sense, TIME (some folks just have more time to think over things, while other work 16 hours a day at jobs that require focus).

 

There are all those voices of authority--parents, other relatives, preachers and other church leaders--drilling endlessly in my head how we absolutely dare not let up the good fight, how we absolutely MUST believe what we were told. But guess what. These people--most of them--were probably younger than I am now when they said this stuff...Okay I did a bit of math just now. My mother's influence on my beliefs was probably biggest up till she was age 54--that is only three years older than I am now. The teaching began when she was in her mid-twenties. Some of my preachers and teachers were that young, too. This means I'm twice the age of some of the people whose authority I was expected to live by. And I am today punished for rejecting those same people's authority.

 

They really only have authority as long as you let them have it (as an adult, not much choice as a kid). This is how I managed to stay "cross free" for the last 30 years. I broke from the faith early in life, and have relied on basic common sense to stay free of it. And to the defense of others here, I firmly believe had the dice ben rolled different for me, meaning had I been in a fundy family, preacher dad etc etc, I might not be 30 years xtainy free, might actually still be wrapped up in it. The xtian influnce was weak in my past, this makes me one of the lucky ones.

 

One of my biggest problems when I lived way over my mid-thirties was that Jesus never learned how to cope with life beyond his mid-thirties. He did not have to develop a coping strategy for impossible life situations that lasted half a century or longer. Like one of my professors said, back when marriage laws were insituted, life expectancy was so short that a ten year marriage was a long time. Now a days, marriage is a 60-year life sentence.

 

Good point. However, we really don't even know if he existed or wrote anything, so even if he had an old age doctrine, it still would not matter.

 

I wasn't stuck in a bad marriage but it was an impossible situation and neither Jesus nor religion leaves us any guidelines on how to deal with it. Only psychology gives us any indication. I would say even psychology is too new. How many sixty-year longitudinal marriages has psychology had time to examine since Freud developed his theories in the 1930s? Psychology is still in its infancy! I don't think one such test has been done yet. Besides, people haven't been used to living long enough for that. People born about 1890 were the first generation of whom significant numbers lived to be ninty or a hundred years old. And that is the kind of population we need in order to study sixty-year marriages with any level of meaningfulness.

 

I agree, the church did a really great job at surpressing science in any form for a very long time. All sciences are still in their infancy if you think about world history.

 

Whoa! I'm talking like a-uh-yeah--might as well confess it--I guess I'm talking like a social scientist or something. Well, even if I weren't, these things would still be happening. And life would still be just as complicated. And we still don't have any guidelines from religion or from Jesus or from anybody else on how to live so long because this is news even for our old people and it's not good news for a lot of them, by the sounds of it. Uh, I guess the topic of this thread was the AFTER-life.

 

No matter, I don't mind if you derail the thread, you speak intelligently so that's all that matters.

 

I'm also supposedly a theologian so I should know something about an aferlife. (All this talk about bodies being born at different times makes me think about an afterbirth--isn't there a relationship???) Now I went back to read the beginnings of this post. I see I wandered quite a bit. I personally really like what Piprus says. On top of that, the seminary where I am studying Christian theology, the professors do not think that there is an afterlife. The emphasis is on finding peace in this life, in living well in this life.

 

Afterlife stuff allways has facinated me. I don't get all hung up on it because one day I will know for sure as each of us will. It is a favorite "pondering" of mine, and the various answers I find stimulating and entertaining. I like Piprus's response too, in fact starting this thread was kinda a fishing lure for just those types of responses.

 

I asked my thesis supervisor, with whom I have also taken several other courses, why he thinks religion is of value if he does not believe in hell. He replied that he thinks it make people feel better or happier. I think that if this is a person's experience, then it is a legitimate reason for being religious. The religion they teach at that seminary is the most humane religion I have yet seen and I think it is what Jesus had in mind. My only problem is the theology. I have been unable to find out why it hangs together for others when it doesn't for me.

 

 

I think religion serves people because it relieves a fear of death. They are willing to give up free-form thinking in exchange for a reason to not feel doomed. This is why hell is used so often. Fear is strong in those that believe, so why not throw a padlock on the person to make sure they dont wander? It also serves as a recruiting tool. Pascals Wager comes to mind.

[SWIM]

any chance this thread can get moved into the 'theism or spirituality' forum?

 

 

Why? Isn't curiousity about the afterlife part of a lot of ex-christian's life?

Sure it is (not sure about a 'lot' but...)

 

But the moderators came up with a whole forum for such topics. And your post seemed to be a big "ghosts are real, here's how I know" so.....

 

I gotcha. Actually, yes it does sound like I am all "ghosts are real" because the ghost stories part of that post was an article I wrote for one of my web sites a while back, which I explained above. Scroll up this thread it's in one of my responses. I (even though I experienced them) am no longer hardcore about "I know". There are other reasons and explainations for what happened to me.

 

But I suppose this thread might be a better fit in there, I went and read some posts in there, so I agree. I have no problem with the thread being moved.

[SWIM]

Thank you for the link. It was informative, but unless I am missing something, nothing in that site was on the subject of my original post.... Of course I have not read the threads, but none of the titles seemed even close? I will take a look at it later on more in depth.

 

Yeah, you'd have to look at the threads. No obligations but I think some of the threads are of the same topic.

 

I am not sure if I am "further along" but in the past I was asking questions I've basically stopped asking. I'm not sure what would happen if someone like you started taking my theories apart. Maybe my interest would be rekindled. Who knows. But maybe my theories are so far from your own that you're not interested.

 

Well, if you happen to come across some threads there that cover time-loops or infinity concepts, please shot me a link. I will likely end up reading some of the threads. Only thing that turns me off about that site is it is geared toward fighting fundies. I never really had that problem (except with an inlaw) so it's hard to relate.

 

I think people get exhausted and stop asking questions because they were at one time expecting factual answers instead of just even more questions. This type of frustration is to be expected if you are not merely speculating and are honest with yourself that it is only speculation.

 

Statements like " I am older" and "I already asked those questions" DO imply, if only subconsiously, an air of superiority. To me it is kinda like what I run into with xtians, and it is a turn off.

[SWIM]

I did some googling last night and I found something similar to my "time loop" theory in the OP.

 

http://www.scienceforums.net/forum/archive...hp?t-18241.html

 

I thought it was pretty facinating!

[SWIM]

Here is an off topic question maybe someone can answer. On the left under my avatar, is another avatar that looks like a book on a pedestal. I preffer the "Ex Christian Unite" one, however I did not see anywhere in my personal profile to change this.. How? Thanks.

[R. S. Martin]

I asked my thesis supervisor, with whom I have also taken several other courses, why he thinks religion is of value if he does not believe in hell. He replied that he thinks it make people feel better or happier. I think that if this is a person's experience, then it is a legitimate reason for being religious. The religion they teach at that seminary is the most humane religion I have yet seen and I think it is what Jesus had in mind. My only problem is the theology. I have been unable to find out why it hangs together for others when it doesn't for me.

 

I think religion serves people because it relieves a fear of death. They are willing to give up free-form thinking in exchange for a reason to not feel doomed. This is why hell is used so often. Fear is strong in those that believe, so why not throw a padlock on the person to make sure they dont wander? It also serves as a recruiting tool. Pascals Wager comes to mind.

 

Yes, for people who believe in an afterlife. But note that I said these professors don't think there is an afterlife--no heaven, no hell. I think the theory falls apart when there is no belief in an afterlife. Yet they are fervent Christians who believe the Christian life is the best life. They believe salvation is a state of mind or soul in this life and that it comes through faith in Jesus and trust in God. They believe humans are depraved and saved only through Jesus' sacrifice on the cross and resurrection, etc.

 

My problem with that kind of salvation is that I had already found it before I entered the seminary and it had nothing to do with Jesus. It had everything to do with kicking oppresssive religion and rejecting the authority of people who will apply whatever level of social pressure is required to get what they want. Techniques: 1. Strictly control the social universe of members so that there is absolutely no support from outside. 2. Withdraw approval as punishment when standard behaviour is not met. 3. Withdraw fellowship if the person still refuses to comply. Loopholes: Canada Post, no ban on reading material, no ban on doing business with and working in public.

 

Through these loopholes, over the course of twenty years, I got the information, the strength, and social support I needed to get out. When plans were finally in place, I was flooded with a peace, joy, and freedom for which at the time I knew no other description or explanation than the new birth except that in my mind I was turning my back on all I had been taught to consider holy. This in itself was extremely confusing. (Why did I get the new birth when I defied God? Was God real after all? Could it be something else? If so, what?) It sent me into a tailspin that took me seven years to get out of. By now I am convinced it's a normal psychological response to getting out of a severely repressive religious situation.

 

For some people it happens when they accept Jesus and for some people it happens when they reject religion. That is the best sense I can make of it. Whatever the case, this was several years in the past by the time I entered the seminary as a graduate student. Abraham H. Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs in Psychology of Being is what makes most sense to me. Thus, I am not in need of their kind of salvation. Add to this that they are not the kind of Christians who are in the recruiting business.

 

Even though I still identified as a Christian when I entered seminary, I did not hold to traditional orthodox beliefs of salvation through Jesus. One professor asked me to write out what I did believe. I panicked and begged him not to try to convert me. He told me he does not think it is his job to convert people. Take that from a man who is also ordained clergy. These Christians are not in the recruiting business but they are sincere and serious about their faith.

 

This is a brand of Christianity I did not know existed until I was at the seminary. I think it is a brand of Christianity many people here at exC don't know exists. I should mention that I have not attended the church where these people go on Sunday mornings so I don't know what that atmosphere and the general congregants are like. All I know is the clergy who are the professors, and the students most of whom are training to be either counselors or clergy.

 

The questions that need to be answered in order for theology to make sense to me are never asked by any of these people. They are not asked by the theologians I read. The only people I have yet encountered who ask these questions are the people who are either outside Christianity or on their way out.

[SWIM]

Yes, for people who believe in an afterlife. But note that I said these professors don't think there is an afterlife--no heaven, no hell. I think the theory falls apart when there is no belief in an afterlife. Yet they are fervent Christians who believe the Christian life is the best life. They believe salvation is a state of mind or soul in this life and that it comes through faith in Jesus and trust in God. They believe humans are depraved and saved only through Jesus' sacrifice on the cross and resurrection, etc.

 

That's the difference between speculating that there might be an afterlife and actually believing it. I lean toward belief in an afterlife, but I am certainly open to the very real possiblity there is not one too.

 

I think most xtians are looney anyway so (delusional) ...

 

My problem with that kind of salvation is that I had already found it before I entered the seminary and it had nothing to do with Jesus. It had everything to do with kicking oppresssive religion and rejecting the authority of people who will apply whatever level of social pressure is required to get what they want. Techniques: 1. Strictly control the social universe of members so that there is absolutely no support from outside. 2. Withdraw approval as punishment when standard behaviour is not met. 3. Withdraw fellowship if the person still refuses to comply. Loopholes: Canada Post, no ban on reading material, no ban on doing business with and working in public.

 

I dont believe in salvation at all. Sin is a concept. So is right and wrong. Is murder wrong? Not if you are a lion, if you didn't murder fellow creatures you would starve. (just an example). If there is no such thing as sin, then there is no need for salvation of any sort.

 

Through these loopholes, over the course of twenty years, I got the information, the strength, and social support I needed to get out. When plans were finally in place, I was flooded with a peace, joy, and freedom for which at the time I knew no other description or explanation than the new birth except that in my mind I was turning my back on all I had been taught to consider holy. This in itself was extremely confusing. (Why did I get the new birth when I defied God? Was God real after all? Could it be something else? If so, what?) It sent me into a tailspin that took me seven years to get out of. By now I am convinced it's a normal psychological response to getting out of a severely repressive religious situation.

 

Yup, normal response. When as a child your parents, whom you love and trust tell you "fire is hot, don't burn yourself on the stove" and you touch the stove anyway, it reinforces your "faith" that your parents are smarter then you. So when they tell you about the buybull, you blindly believe. When you break from it, you can sometimes feel subconsciously that you have betrayed them. It is so hard to break pre-programming.

 

For some people it happens when they accept Jesus and for some people it happens when they reject religion. That is the best sense I can make of it. Whatever the case, this was several years in the past by the time I entered the seminary as a graduate student. Abraham H. Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs in Psychology of Being is what makes most sense to me. Thus, I am not in need of their kind of salvation. Add to this that they are not the kind of Christians who are in the recruiting business.

 

I don't think I ever felt euphoria like you describe, either positive or negative. I have "ah hah" moments when I think I have stumbled onto something cool, but never been on the proverbial "cloud nine".

 

Even though I still identified as a Christian when I entered seminary, I did not hold to traditional orthodox beliefs of salvation through Jesus. One professor asked me to write out what I did believe. I panicked and begged him not to try to convert me. He told me he does not think it is his job to convert people. Take that from a man who is also ordained clergy. These Christians are not in the recruiting business but they are sincere and serious about their faith.

 

Of course they are! Muslims also are super serious. So was many cult followers, so much so they took their own life (heaven's gate for example). There is an inherent danger to blind belief. It is tempting to shut down one's mind and "give up" when you have not only pre-programming, a social network to join, a handy dandy book to use for everything... Then add to that the fear factor (pascal's wager) and BOOM. quite frankly, it is amazing that anyone is able to get out at all!

 

Here's food for thought. suppose xtainity were not so wierd and outlandish in it's content? If it were logical, IF the buybull were edited of ALL it's mistakes and inconsistancies it would hold FAR MORE people in it's grip then it currently does. I am thankful that it is off the deep end so often, it makes it far easier to turn away from.

 

 

The questions that need to be answered in order for theology to make sense to me are never asked by any of these people. They are not asked by the theologians I read. The only people I have yet encountered who ask these questions are the people who are either outside Christianity or on their way out.

 

No they skate around tough issues and give it up to god's mystery and wonder. Anything they cannot or will not address is ussually "god is god, only he knows".

 

Thanks for the replies.

[Deva]

I did some googling last night and I found something similar to my "time loop" theory in the OP.

 

http://www.scienceforums.net/forum/archive...hp?t-18241.html

 

I thought it was pretty facinating!

 

 

I only had time to glance at the link but it seems to be similar to the eternal reoccurrance. I find it a very interesting idea. I love different questions also.

 

Michael--do you think there is such a thing as objective reality. In other words, is time just a mental concept?

[R. S. Martin]

No they skate around tough issues and give it up to god's mystery and wonder. Anything they cannot or will not address is ussually "god is god, only he knows".

 

Next question: In your opinion, are Christians stupid if they "skate around" these tough questions? Please consider a man who can argue intelligently about any topic under the sun in about eight different languages, ancient as well as modern, and read ten other languages? He lived from 1797-1878. Or a man alive today who can at the drop of a hat lecture for three hours straight on the history of European and North American Christianity complete with the names of several hundred theologians and other religious leaders, along with the dates of their births and deaths, and the names of their denominations and how all of these related to each other and fitted into other existing social patterns of the day? Better give him six hours because this is too much information to crowd into three.

 

In my opinion they are in no way stupid. So why do they limit themselves and not follow questions to their logical conclusion? The first man believed in an afterlife so fear of death could have played a part in his religion. But the second man is my prof who seems to be agnostic about the aferlife. Therefore fear of death seems not to play a factor, but he is religious all the same. That is why I ask if in your opinion he is stupid because evading tough questions can come across as being stupid.