Life After Death?

[SWIM]

I did some googling last night and I found something similar to my "time loop" theory in the OP.

 

http://www.scienceforums.net/forum/archive...hp?t-18241.html

 

I thought it was pretty facinating!

 

 

I only had time to glance at the link but it seems to be similar to the eternal reoccurrance. I find it a very interesting idea. I love different questions also.

 

Michael--do you think there is such a thing as objective reality. In other words, is time just a mental concept?

 

I tend to believe time is like darkeness. Darkeness does not exist, there is merely an absence of light. Just like cold does not exist, merely an absence of heat. Time may not exist either, just our perception of change. Though the time question is harder to dismiss. Are there time theories in science? Is time travel considered possible in science? Not sure (not a trick question, I don't know..) I might google it later.

 

Gotta run gonna go sin in Bilioxi with the wife for a couple of days.

 

What do you mean by "objective reality?" don't really understand the question. Reality is to me, percieved by the senses. We see hear taste touch things, therefore we feel they must be real, but are they? For all we know we are all sitting in a "matrix" like pod, and this is all a virtual reality feed to our senses with advanced computer systems...

[SWIM]

Next question: In your opinion, are Christians stupid if they "skate around" these tough questions? Please consider a man who can argue intelligently about any topic under the sun in about eight different languages, ancient as well as modern, and read ten other languages? He lived from 1797-1878. Or a man alive today who can at the drop of a hat lecture for three hours straight on the history of European and North American Christianity complete with the names of several hundred theologians and other religious leaders, along with the dates of their births and deaths, and the names of their denominations and how all of these related to each other and fitted into other existing social patterns of the day? Better give him six hours because this is too much information to crowd into three.

Brainwashing has a very unique way of making otherwise intellegent people "stupid". Skating around tough questions is a defense against a belief threatening idea. There is little threat in other issues since they do not challenge the individuals core beliefs.

 

 

 

In my opinion they are in no way stupid. So why do they limit themselves and not follow questions to their logical conclusion? The first man believed in an afterlife so fear of death could have played a part in his religion. But the second man is my prof who seems to be agnostic about the aferlife. Therefore fear of death seems not to play a factor, but he is religious all the same. That is why I ask if in your opinion he is stupid because evading tough questions can come across as being stupid.

 

Stupid is perhaps a bad choice of words, "in denial" or "unable to think past a certain parameter" might be more accurate.

 

I feel that fear of death is the CORE to religion. The subconscious mind is a wonderful thing. Deep inside man created god and religion imo, to fill a void, why am I here? Surely this cannot be all, just die and be dead?

 

Dying and being dead is a greatly feared concept. Even if logically it is really the ultimate peace. This is rooted deep in people's minds.

[Robbobrob]

I do acknowledge that the words are very troublesome, since they connote specific things to most people. If I had had other words to use at the time of writin, I would have.

 

Didn't mean to sound critical, Robborob. I very much appreciated your point of view. Also, I did notice you put Heaven in quotes. Words are indeed difficult sometimes.

Did not take it as you being critical, you just gave me a chance to clarify that I am not using completely conventional meanings of the two words in question. maybe, over time, better meanings will be take as the norm. It has happened many times before, especially with those two words.

[Robbobrob]

Here is an off topic question maybe someone can answer. On the left under my avatar, is another avatar that looks like a book on a pedestal. I preffer the "Ex Christian Unite" one, however I did not see anywhere in my personal profile to change this.. How? Thanks.

That is all in the mods hands. Better not to think about it. You could end up with a Fundie one instead.

[I Broke Free]

Hi Michael,

 

I too am 47 years old and have been an exchristian for 30 years, but once I read you were retired I was just too jealous to read any further.

 

IBF

[Grandpa Harley]

Here is an off topic question maybe someone can answer. On the left under my avatar, is another avatar that looks like a book on a pedestal. I preffer the "Ex Christian Unite" one, however I did not see anywhere in my personal profile to change this.. How? Thanks.

 

It's Sergeants stripes, old thing... you've earned it.

[Bongo]

Hi all. This is a response mainly to the original post and not the subsequent ones. I saw a large discussion after that but did not follow it.

 

Michael. Nice stories!

 

Me, I'm of three minds--all undecided.

 

one: on the one hand, we die, we're dead. done.

two: we die, and enjoy whatever afterlife that we discover. Hell and christianity are NOT part of it.

three: we die, we reincarnate.

 

Ok. Also, number Four: like robbobrob said, we rejoin the Core. Or, as I put it, the Great Glob. We enter it like raindrops in the ocean.

This would also allow reincarnation because as another pinch of the glob goes to inhabit the next baby, that pinch may contain a mixture of the memories of the previous lives in the Glob. Sometimes, that pinch contains a lot of memories from one individual, so it would seem he was reincarnated.

 

I pretty much "believe" in either an afterlife with or without reincarnation, and also the Great Glob scenario.

 

------------------------------------------------------------

I had a pretty good after death communication myself, from my Dad whose funeral I did not attend. I'll try to be brief:

 

first of all, I was awake, lying on my bed face up, and I felt a vigorous strong tug on my earlobe. It hurt a little. no one was there. this was the day after he died.

 

Second, an object was mysteriously relocated in the center of a room. Those are both "explainable" I suppose.

 

Finally, I had a vivid dream within 24 hours of death where I entered a Visitors' Room in "heaven" or wherever. Other living people were there too, all there to meet their dead relatives. Soon, my father was standing next to me. He looked absolutely terrific. He died when he was 70. In this dream he was about 30 or so. Beaming, happy, healthy. Still my Dad, but YOUNGER than me. Now, I remind myself that I've heard before that the dead are brought to their prime in the afterlife, but if I was chosing an appearance for him, it would have been as I most remember him back when he was in his healthy 50's and 60's. I barely knew him in his 30s!

 

Anyway, he was happy. We hugged. We talked about several things, my Grandma who was there with him, the question of reincarnation (he said "no", but I persist anyway and keep it as a possible outcome), and interestingly to me, we talked about the human nature and how we are often driven by our bodily influences (lust and such) and how because of that our "sins" are understood. ("Sin" was a word neither of us used.) (I had heard something unsavory about him so I talked about it with him to "forgive" him for this and to let him know I understand in a human way.)

 

-----------------------------------------------------

 

But if we just die and decompose and that's it, i'm ok with that. I was NOT ok with that, until I changed the way I thought of it. I mentioned this in some other thread, so sorry for any repeat readers:

 

We die, decompose, and our atoms become part of the world again. Or part of another person. Our particles, then, have an eternity of life in them. When this earth is blown to smithereens by the Red Giant sun in a few billion years, our atoms will be there. They'll become scattered and adventure throughout the cosmos. My pieces will fly to other solar systems, sink into a black hole, become parts of another alien life, and/or drift forever among wondrous vistas as little emmissaries of me. I wont see it, but I'll be there.

 

bongo

[Islington]

My believe is definitv nondualistic, for we live but are dying already - so medicine states. If this is the case, then I think we must life in some parts (comming more to live or walking further away?) when we are dead.

And we are part of our kommunity, we hold someone alife (in some way) if we talk of him. His deeds and spirit will still be there. They guides us in our live right now and why should it not give us some advise if it could not let go without doing so? One of my friends visited his uncle in hospital - he had not been awake for a long time but did so then, said far well und died.

On the other hand I believe in rebirth and afterlive. I have some close friends who say that they have experienced pastlifes and I do believe them. I meet some new friends again - I mean I met them first time this live but I new a lot of them without asking.

I think, if I believe in a free will that allows me to choose my course of way in living it will be there in dying, just to decide wether to go on to what ever, to return to a human live to learn some lessons again or just to say: Fuck you! I have enough of being, I stop my existence.

[SWIM]

Finally, I had a vivid dream within 24 hours of death where I entered a Visitors' Room in "heaven" or wherever. Other living people were there too, all there to meet their dead relatives. Soon, my father was standing next to me. He looked absolutely terrific. He died when he was 70. In this dream he was about 30 or so. Beaming, happy, healthy. Still my Dad, but YOUNGER than me. Now, I remind myself that I've heard before that the dead are brought to their prime in the afterlife, but if I was chosing an appearance for him, it would have been as I most remember him back when he was in his healthy 50's and 60's. I barely knew him in his 30s!

 

Anyway, he was happy. We hugged. We talked about several things, my Grandma who was there with him, the question of reincarnation (he said "no", but I persist anyway and keep it as a possible outcome), and interestingly to me, we talked about the human nature and how we are often driven by our bodily influences (lust and such) and how because of that our "sins" are understood. ("Sin" was a word neither of us used.) (I had heard something unsavory about him so I talked about it with him to "forgive" him for this and to let him know I understand in a human way.)

 

Heyya! Interesting story! Very few stories I have ever read where the one that passed on even talks about the afterlife, but then again this was more a dream as you stated. Pretty interesting stuff though!

 

Just got back from Bilioxi, won about 600.00

 

glad to be back though

[SWIM]

My believe is definitv nondualistic, for we live but are dying already - so medicine states. If this is the case, then I think we must life in some parts (comming more to live or walking further away?) when we are dead.

And we are part of our kommunity, we hold someone alife (in some way) if we talk of him. His deeds and spirit will still be there. They guides us in our live right now and why should it not give us some advise if it could not let go without doing so? One of my friends visited his uncle in hospital - he had not been awake for a long time but did so then, said far well und died.

On the other hand I believe in rebirth and afterlive. I have some close friends who say that they have experienced pastlifes and I do believe them. I meet some new friends again - I mean I met them first time this live but I new a lot of them without asking.

I think, if I believe in a free will that allows me to choose my course of way in living it will be there in dying, just to decide wether to go on to what ever, to return to a human live to learn some lessons again or just to say: Fuck you! I have enough of being, I stop my existence.

 

Some folks are under the belief that you can choose your parents and such before you come back. I tend to back away from things that appear more wishfull thinking. Nature tends to be very cruel. We see it all the time in the animal world. Freewill for the most part is an illusion. We MUST eat to live, breath to live, kill life to eat, be it plant or animal life, something always must die so something can live.

 

Nature is also full of cycles. The earth moving around the sun, the birth then death cycle, the moon phases etc etc. It is logical to think consciousness could cycle too, ebbing and flowing throughout eternity.

 

Even the Great Blob theory fits into cycles. If you theorize that you progress through reincarnation to the point of re-joining the great bunny, you may start off again at some point as a lower life form and start the climb all over again... What a thought...

[SWIM]

Hi Michael,

 

I too am 47 years old and have been an exchristian for 30 years, but once I read you were retired I was just too jealous to read any further.

 

IBF

 

 

LOL glad to see we got a lot in common. Don't be jealous, it was a tough battle to get to the point of retirement.

 

So far this board has a lot of people on it I can relate to, glad I found it.

[Mythra]

I'm not a believer in disembodied consciousness (whatsoever). Nice to think about it, but I can't buy it. (your personal accounts of ghosts notwithstanding)

 

But don't take it personally, Michael. If I had experienced those things myself, I still wouldn't buy it. After many years of being a gullible idiot with religion, I have turned into an ultra-skeptic of all things supernatural.

 

The brain goes caput, so do we. I'm completely at ease with the concept, after a brief (traumatic) adjustment period.

 

Still, it's not as I would have it if there was a choice. But there is no choice.

 

We all fall down. (do I really need to put an IMHO in there anywhere??)

 

A linky for anyone interested:

 

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/kei...mmortality.html

[Mythra]

Of course, I also firmly believe that it's a physical impossibility to go to a casino and come home a winner.

 

So, take everything I say with a grain of salt.

 

[Insanity personified]

I dont really believe in an afterlife...to me it takes away beauty from this life

[Mankey]

Michael :

....do you have any thoughts on a possible afterlife?

Read up on brain damage and what it does to a person. Neurology...er....stuff like that.

 

I would prefer to start a Jesus wiki.......I really do not wish to play this card. It is strange that other atheists never really talk about this either.

 

Heck, you might disagree with me about there not being an afterlife after words.

 

I won't argue with anybody about an after life......yet.

 

Waiting for a jesus wiki by really knowledgeable people. It is much easier to debunk God and especially a soul....don't make me do it.

 

Jesus wiki.

 

 

waiting.....

 

 

[Mankey]

I'm not a believer in disembodied consciousness (whatsoever). Nice to think about it, but I can't buy it. (your personal accounts of ghosts notwithstanding)

 

But don't take it personally, Michael. If I had experienced those things myself, I still wouldn't buy it. After many years of being a gullible idiot with religion, I have turned into an ultra-skeptic of all things supernatural.

 

The brain goes caput, so do we. I'm completely at ease with the concept, after a brief (traumatic) adjustment period.

 

Still, it's not as I would have it if there was a choice. But there is no choice.

 

We all fall down. (do I really need to put an IMHO in there anywhere??)

 

A linky for anyone interested:

 

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/kei...mmortality.html

oops missed your post here. now I can't threaten people into making a jesus wiki....

 

meh.

 

Why is it that not many of us play this card with theists? I will get very good at presenting arguments like this. Very good. Christianity pisses me off that much.

[SWIM]

Michael :

....do you have any thoughts on a possible afterlife?

Read up on brain damage and what it does to a person. Neurology...er....stuff like that.

 

I would prefer to start a Jesus wiki.......I really do not wish to play this card. It is strange that other atheists never really talk about this either.

 

Heck, you might disagree with me about there not being an afterlife after words.

 

I won't argue with anybody about an after life......yet.

 

Waiting for a jesus wiki by really knowledgeable people. It is much easier to debunk God and especially a soul....don't make me do it.

 

Jesus wiki.

 

 

waiting.....

 

 

Waiting for a what? Jesus wiki? uhm... no thanks, left that crapola behind long long ago, waste your time and write one if you are that interested, I have zero desire to either read one or write one...

 

Brain damage? Irrelevant, we all suffer some form of it I suspect, I seriously doubt ANY of us have totally perfect mental fuctioning. Consciousness, personality, tendencies etc etc are all products of the brain. But, that's not the point is it? The point being does this window into the world we call "self" does it survive? You know, getting knocked in the head can make you an idiot, yup! But it does not effect the perception that "you" are aware of "you" meaning only "you" look out of your eyes, hear through your ears, think your thoughts etc etc. SELF is more what I mean then consciousness. My speculations is more about the "YOU" that is you, not your level of intelect or memory capacity. I am totally sure with the correct brain damage, I could drool for hours and masterbate in public, but the idea that "I" "am" the window into this existance I have, will it appear again after death? (hence life after death) it is not dependant on brain chemistry, merely dependant upon will "I" be aware ever again, regardless of the state my brain is in.

 

And it's not about debunking, arguing or anything like that. I *speculate* and though I may believe a thing, I have no problem abandoning or altering that belief either. And actually *belief* is a strong word, most of my ponderings are theory or speculation.

 

Have phun writing or finding your useless wiki...

 

[RIPw4]

I must say I got chills when reading your "proof" of the afterlife..

while I personally don't know if there is an afterlife because I have not seen it with my own eyes, I sure hope there is one.

One thing that I personally will never do is to claim that I know anything that is not tangible. I used to claim I knew Jesus was real.. I cant claim he is now..

 

I too have had experiences that were unexplainable.. While in a drug induced stupor I talked to an Old man in my bedroom. We talked about my friend who was sitting next to me. My friend could not see him. the old man told me things to tell my friend sitting next to me. My friend was a HARDCORE Atheist.

After telling my friend some of the things the old man was telling me his eyes got really big and he had this scared look on his face. Apparently some of the things that I told him were stuff that him and his grandfather used to do together. He was even wearing the same clothes that my friend remembered him in..

Kinda weird..

 

Now wether that was real or only caused by drugs I do not know.

 

but I sure hope there is an afterlife. I believe in one but I dont know it to be real.. I just hope!