I've Had Enough...

[mlr72]

I just got kicked out of the forum over at christianity.com, and while I never thought I'd say this, it felt pretty damn good.

 

As the title of this post suggests, I've had enough! I went through it all: the baptism, the laying on of hands, the devotionals, the tears, the anguish, the deep, heart-felt prayers, asking God to forgive me of my sin and help me to grow in my spiritual life. Then one day, I had a question.

 

I posted the following at christianity.com, but saved it. I hope you don't mind if I post it. I actually had a Christian praise me for this:

 

I can't take it anymore. I have to get this off of my chest.

 

I've come to the conclusion that God doesn't play an active role in our lives, except for those He favors most. Even worse, I'm starting to believe that God is just a big kid with a mean streak and a magnifying glass. Once, just once, it would be nice for God to leave His throne, come down to each of us individually and have a little chat. You know...tell us what He wants us to do, where He wants us to go, tell us what He wants us to do with our lives, who to marry, etc. Of course, this isn't living by faith.

 

But, still, is it too much to ask from a holy, omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient God to sit fireside with us under the stars by lake and talk things out? Even Jesus said that if you have faith, you can literally move a mountain. So far, I haven't seen God walking local streets, issuing advice and healing the sick, much less Mount Everest leave its foundations and take up residence in the Rockies.

 

So, we're born, and since God is the author of life, He creates us with certain limitations, genetic make-ups, levels of intelligence, and predispositions to certain diseases, like cancer, or sickle cell anemia, etc. And so we fight through our maladies, and should we overcome, we are to give God praise and worship.

 

But I have to ask, why? Wasn't He the very one who decided to give us the dilemma in the first place? Or at least allow us to suffer through it? I'm starting to thinks it's wrong to praise a God who allows us or even strikes us with affliction, only to have us worship Him. This sounds more like megalomania than anything resembling love. If you and I were to do this, we'd be told how we're filled with self-righteous hubris, but God can afflict us with anything He wishes, and it's considered holiness and divine right.

 

A tornado devastates a community. Some houses are shattered into shards of glass and splinters of wood. But there are some houses, literally a few feet away, that are untouched. When one house is destroyed, it is referred to as God's will, but the house that is spared...oh well...that's just an example of God's blessing and divine protection. How can God say that He loves His people whose house he just obliterated? Yet, the rapists and murderers and elitist pigs go untouched. They're practically blessed.

 

And since God can stand outside of space and time, He has the unique ability to look down through the annals of time, and see certain people, regardless of how good of a person they are, are going straight to hell. Hell, which was intended for the fallen hosts of heaven, is now a place for even the best that humanity can offer. Picture, if you will, Mother Teresa, or someone of similar caliber. Now, imagine she didn't ask Jesus to rescue her while she was with the living. All of a sudden, a woman of her stature is condemned to eternal torture and separation from a holy, loving God. "Worship Me or else!"

 

Does this seem fair to you? (By the way, I'm not saying that Mother Teresa is roasting right now.)

 

I think Neil Peart said it best when he penned:

Faith is cold as ice --

Why are little ones born only to suffer

For the want of immunity

Or a bowl of rice?

Well, who would hold a price

On the heads of the innocent children

If there's some Immortal Power

To control the dice?

 

This world is going straight to hell in a hand basket complete with a Hemi and twin racing stripes, and God refuses to get involved. Meanwhile, New World Order dirtbags like John Hagee are preaching to the sheep in their mega churches saying that government is God, and we should just roll over, play dead, and take whatever the government says is best for us. All the while stating that Jesus isn't the Messiah, mind you.

 

And if the United States is a Christian nation, how come we don't see statues of the saints on every street corner? Instead, we see statues of gods and goddesses standing throughout the country, like the Statue of Liberty. Look atop the Congress Building. That's not a statue of Mary. Does the name Persephone ring a bell, anyone?

 

I know I sound extremely shrill, and I'll bet that you're thinking, "This guy is nuts! Yep, hellbound is this dimwit! And on a looooooong, greasy, steep slope, too!"

 

But, all I really want to know is, where in the universe is God?

 

Of course, the responses that I got were the usual drivel: "You need to pray more," "you need to read more of the New Testament," "you need to buy this book," "have more faith," "Satan really has his claws in you doesn't he?" etc. After a couple of posts, one "Christian" in particular actually had the spine to insinuate that I am a Holocaust denier. When I took him to task over it, every single one of his cohorts came spilling out of the woodwork in his defense. I was stunned.

 

So, I posted a question today. I wasn't mean, harsh, caustic, or anything of the sort. All I asked was for a dialogue relating to the dissimilarities between Vespasian's curing of a blind man in Tacitus', "The Histories," and Jesus Christ's curing of a blind man in John 9:1. My post was deleted. I reposted, then got a nasty-gram, basically telling me that I could stay as long as I didn't rock the boat and respected other people's beliefs.

 

I'm not a person who loses his temper very easily, but I was furious. I posted another response, and like the last I saved it because I knew after the moderators read it, they'd can me. Sure enough, I was canned. Maybe I'll post that one at another time.

 

Anyway, I'm here, thinking maybe I can find someone who still struggles with their faith in God, while trying to make sense of the world around them. But please, please, please, don't quote me anymore Scripture. I just can't take it anymore.

[♦ nivek ♦]

mlr...

 

Set'cher fuckin' oars in water and paddle up a storm.

 

If there is one *pride* ExC has over any other "religious based content Board" on the IntaRWeb, it is that you can blast away with all the barrels you have and can borrow.

 

If you elect to participate in the science/op-ed/news sections, have a good set of asbestos undies ready, things tend to get hot there.

 

This section is for the more satisfied with having some form of higher power/gods/goddesses in their lives. If you find that cutting off xanity right to roots isn't something you can do *now*, then feel free to join in this little Community and try and find the direction you wish to go.

 

No one will ban your ass for yelling, screaming, and dumping your frustrations with the sectarians. We've got the Rants Section and the Lion's Den to go take some of the pressure off via keyboard.

 

I'm Webmaster Dave's Garbageman, and so far there has been very fuggin' little enough to piss me off, someone trying to either get out, or is out so shortly the wounds are red raw.

 

ExC exists in part for you. Use it.

 

kFL

[ChibiQ]

<snip>

 

... while I don't have much to thank the moderators here for, one thing is allowing my kind to stay (although it's basically for their own reasons, to try and make us look as low as possible)...

 

<snip>

 

Edit by KelliKat:

ChibQ: I have largely ignored you until now. We allow "your kind," as you put it, because as long as one is willing to follow the rules, we are very tolerant -- not because of some hidden agenda. (Methinks you suffer from paranoia). We even allow the rules to be bent and broken to a certain extent, but you've definitely crossed the line here. Read the rules section of this particular forum (Ex-Christian Theism And Spirituality).

 

Edit by Fweethawt:

ChibQ, our reasons for "allowing" your "kind to stay" are not to make you look as low as possible. You do very well on your own with that. Stay the hell out of this section of the forum, or your "stay" will most certainly be cut short. Have a good day.

[ShackledNoMore]

May I offer a little reminder from the rules for this section?

This area is for those who have left Christianity for some other form of theism or spirituality.

 

All members (except apologists) are permitted to post in this area.

Ironic that that's probably more of a response than mlr72 got on the xian board. Except for a passing comment that the responses are unsupported drivel and propaganda, I won't attempt to argue it as I might if it was posted in another more appropriate section (such as the Lion's Den) if I had the time and inclination that day.

 

Another case in point for the ugly, deceitful, controlling underbelly of this religion. For a religion of "love" and understanding of god, getting promptly banned for asking an honest question rather than getting a thoughtful answer (or attempt at one) on the board, really betrays that, doesn't it? And the answer here, where an apologetic explanation was attempted: "we are all sinful, we deserve eternal hellfire." Bullshit.

 

Welcome mlr72. I am sorry your perfectly legitimate question, similar to questions that many of us here have asked, got derailed in this manner.

 

PS: I see the mods read the post as I was typing this response. I'm glad they did something to "underail" things. My comments still stand.

[Skiergirl24]

I totally empathize with you. I joined a Christian community before I joined this group. I wanted help in restoring my faith. I was kciked out and got responses like "Read the Bible" and "You will burn in hell." I never once received an intelligent, well thought out answer. I have the same problems with Christianity as you do. I grew up Catholic and I think my parents did me a grave disservice when they decided to raise me in a spiritual home. Now, as an adult, my world has come crashing down and I realize everything I was taught about God is a complete lie. I have begun investigating the Judeo/Christian God and what I find is an evil, arrogant prick of a deity. My mother recently died at a very young age (prayer does not work) and I am having the hardest time dealing with it. Every Christian I have spoken to has fed me bullshit like "God has a plan for you" or "We cannot question the Lord" or "We cannot understand God, he is so great that he is beyond human comprehension." Excuses. Christians make up silly excuses for an evil God. I would rather believe there is no God than believe in a God who is all-powerful yet decides to allow people to die from AIDS, cancer etc.

 

Why would a God who LOVES mankind, create us in such a way that we would be so confused? Why wouldn't a loving a God give us the clear answers? If we need to prove our faith to God then God has severe self-esteem issues and is not Perfect! God is supposed to be perfect. If something is perfect, it is complete--it needs nothing else. So why did God create the Earth? Why did he create us?

 

More on pain and suffering: God could have created us in a way so that all we were able to feel was joy and pleasure and we would be able to FULLY experience the extreme ecstasy of joy without having to suffer. God did not do that though, did he? Also, our goal here on the earth is to live according to God's laws so that we may gain entrance into the Kingdom of Heaven (according to the Bible). God could simply skip this whole Earth business and we could all be in heaven with him.... but he doesn't do that. He intentionally places us here on Earth to make us suffer and test our faith. That is not a perfect God. That is an evil tyrant.

[R. S. Martin]

Welcome to exChristian.net, mlr! Your rant fits right in. Thanks to Burnedout and ShackledNoMore, I get some idea of ChibiQ's post. In my opinion, the part that remains shows what a lame excuse of a human being Chibbie really is. Whew! I hope you didn't take him too seriously, mlr, and that you come back. There are answers to your questions but the Christians don't have them. The Christians have to make us out to be horrible creatures so they can "fix" us. Surprise! we're born decent creatures and need only be nurtured to bring out our best; no "fixing" is needed, as SNM and Burnedout argued. Keep reading the forums, rant and rave as needed. All of us do that. That's what this place is for. Again, welcome!

[♦ nivek ♦]

ChibiQ,

 

After reviewing the various problems with your participation here in the Ex-Christian Spirituality I am asking you to voluntarily to remove yourself from participation in this portion of the Forurii.

 

From this time forward, 0900us Pacific time, 11.27.2007, any post by you, or anyone sharing your Internet Protocol addressing, will be enough to toss your ass back out the front door of Webmaster Dave's House with malice. I WILL consider a ban rather than a *time out* as is being delivered.

 

You are now on a one month vacation from ExC in which I would hope you would bother to read the short sections of Rules for each section.

 

kevinFuckin'L

[SWIM]

 

 

Now he is sending PM's to us!

 

Here's the one he just sent me:

 

Hey, I know you don't particularly care for me or anything I have to say, but I have to ask, what was the main argument that made you leave Christianity? I just sent this same question to Grandpa Harley, so don't be surprised if it makes it to a post on the forums. I'm just trying to get a census of what drove everyone away, so I can better understand where you're all coming from.

 

 

I personally think a ban is in order. I don't mind fighting with them in the Lion's Den, at least others can read it and benefit from the public exchange, and realize just how screwed up he is, but in PM it's just dead air.

[GraphicsGuy]

Hey mlr72, welcome to ex-C.

 

Even if you aren't or never become an ex-C yourself it seems that you are realizing that the religion of Christianity just isn't what it's hyped up to be. I know a number of Christians who have basically become universalists over a long period of time due to their own disillusionment with the organized sects of Christianity.

 

As for your getting banned from the Xian forum...it doesn't surprise me at all. The fact is, you were HONEST and that is something that the masses actually despise. You asked hard questions that everyone really has in the back of their mind, but they'll often call it "Satan" or "demon oppression" or some other nonsense.

 

If "God" exists at all, I am quite certain that he/she/it is a god that absolutely understands the reality of the world around us and what we go through day after day. Xianity ignores reality. It ignores the facts and real issues and only accepts the good and bad as "lessons from God" or finds any way it can to sweep the big questions under the rug.

 

You can read story after story on this site of how Xianity just utterly FAILED people when reality slammed them in the face.

 

Ultimately, the goal for YOU is to find peace, whether with faith or without it...and yes, there is peace without faith and peace with faith, depends on what you need really.

 

So, again, welcome to ex-C. Welcome to the start of a new journey. Welcome to wherever you are in life. Welcome to reality.

[GraphicsGuy]

Now he is sending PM's to us!

 

Here's the one he just sent me:

 

Hey, I know you don't particularly care for me or anything I have to say, but I have to ask, what was the main argument that made you leave Christianity? I just sent this same question to Grandpa Harley, so don't be surprised if it makes it to a post on the forums. I'm just trying to get a census of what drove everyone away, so I can better understand where you're all coming from.

 

Typical Xian. Came on the site, most likely never even bothered to read a single, fucking anti-testimony that anyone has posted. They just assume our reasons, thoughts, and feelings aren't valid and we just wanted to live our own lives of debauchery and sin.

 

mlr72...see? What you've experienced so far is just the tip of the iceberg. Underneath it all most Xians are just hateful, spiteful, insecure people just like so many other NORMAL human beings on this planet.

[SWIM]

Anyway, I'm here, thinking maybe I can find someone who still struggles with their faith in God, while trying to make sense of the world around them. But please, please, please, don't quote me anymore Scripture. I just can't take it anymore.

 

 

Heyya welcome to ex-c. Sorry Chibby jacked your thread, don't worry about it, it got Skip's attention, so that should be good enough.

 

Even if you *still* have some xtianity left in you, you will still be welcome here. Others here are still xtians, but they post questions, and are seeking answers. While others, like Chibby, are here to "save" us.

 

I think you will find "banning" is a rare thing, and tolerance abounds. Crossing the line is when they come here tryin to re-convert us.

 

I am glad you are here, you sound like you are going through a lot.

[Jennywocky]

I just got kicked out of the forum over at christianity.com, and while I never thought I'd say this, it felt pretty damn good.

 

As the title of this post suggests, I've had enough! I went through it all: the baptism, the laying on of hands, the devotionals, the tears, the anguish, the deep, heart-felt prayers, asking God to forgive me of my sin and help me to grow in my spiritual life. Then one day, I had a question.

 

I posted the following at christianity.com, but saved it. I hope you don't mind if I post it. I actually had a Christian praise me for this:

 

I loved your post.

 

And, honestly, I found it more "Christian" (in the real sense) than anything posted by the typical milling crowds. If God exists, I would hope He'd be outraged by the same things you are.

 

Your position is very tenable and your feelings exists *because* you are a moral person, not an immoral one.

 

It disappoints me that Christianity.com cannot handle the heat.

[Mythra]

Anyway, I'm here, thinking maybe I can find someone who still struggles with their faith in God, while trying to make sense of the world around them. But please, please, please, don't quote me anymore Scripture. I just can't take it anymore.

 

 

I know I shouldn't have found this funny. But in thinking back, I can relate.

 

Welcome to ex-c, mlr72. You may find one or two scripture regurgitators here, but don't worry - we have them outgunned.

 

And we've got your back.

 

Feel free to be as honest as you like here.

[Antlerman]

Of course, the responses that I got were the usual drivel: "You need to pray more," "you need to read more of the New Testament," "you need to buy this book," "have more faith," "Satan really has his claws in you doesn't he?" etc. After a couple of posts, one "Christian" in particular actually had the spine to insinuate that I am a Holocaust denier. When I took him to task over it, every single one of his cohorts came spilling out of the woodwork in his defense. I was stunned.

 

So, I posted a question today. I wasn't mean, harsh, caustic, or anything of the sort. All I asked was for a dialogue relating to the dissimilarities between Vespasian's curing of a blind man in Tacitus', "The Histories," and Jesus Christ's curing of a blind man in John 9:1. My post was deleted. I reposted, then got a nasty-gram, basically telling me that I could stay as long as I didn't rock the boat and respected other people's beliefs.

I just don't get this. Is their website about discussing matters of faith? Isn't doubt just that? I hear this complaint all the time about banning people who might "upset other's faith". WTF is that? It's real life. They want everything to sound all rosy and cheery? How does that reflect reality, or help people?

 

This is one of the big things about this evangelical Christian world. Everyone has to put on this big front about their "faith". They get scared to admit to others and themselves that things just don't add up. This isn't real spirituality. It's religion, and that's why they banned you.

 

I'm not a person who loses his temper very easily, but I was furious. I posted another response, and like the last I saved it because I knew after the moderators read it, they'd can me. Sure enough, I was canned. Maybe I'll post that one at another time.

 

Anyway, I'm here, thinking maybe I can find someone who still struggles with their faith in God, while trying to make sense of the world around them. But please, please, please, don't quote me anymore Scripture. I just can't take it anymore.

It's not so much as struggle with a faith in God for me at this stage, but more just a continuation of the pursuit of growth since dumping a religious network as you just gave example of above. I'm always trying to make sense of the world around me. But it's 10,000,000,000 times easier once you break the yoke of religion.

 

Welcome. Don't let the visiting fundi's bother you. We tear the hearts out for lunch around here. Just point us to them.

[R. S. Martin]

Bumping this thread so people can find it. It's the preview so to speak of mlr's deconversion story here.

[Aqua Kitty]

I've come to the conclusion that God doesn't play an active role in our lives, except for those He favors most. Even worse, I'm starting to believe that God is just a big kid with a mean streak and a magnifying glass. Once, just once, it would be nice for God to leave His throne, come down to each of us individually and have a little chat. You know...tell us what He wants us to do, where He wants us to go, tell us what He wants us to do with our lives, who to marry, etc. Of course, this isn't living by faith.

 

But, still, is it too much to ask from a holy, omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient God to sit fireside with us under the stars by lake and talk things out? Even Jesus said that if you have faith, you can literally move a mountain.

 

So, we're born, and since God is the author of life, He creates us with certain limitations, genetic make-ups, levels of intelligence, and predispositions to certain diseases, like cancer, or sickle cell anemia, etc. And so we fight through our maladies, and should we overcome, we are to give God praise and worship.

 

But I have to ask, why? Wasn't He the very one who decided to give us the dilemma in the first place? Or at least allow us to suffer through it? I'm starting to thinks it's wrong to praise a God who allows us or even strikes us with affliction, only to have us worship Him. This sounds more like megalomania than anything resembling love. If you and I were to do this, we'd be told how we're filled with self-righteous hubris, but God can afflict us with anything He wishes, and it's considered holiness and divine right.

 

A tornado devastates a community. Some houses are shattered into shards of glass and splinters of wood. But there are some houses, literally a few feet away, that are untouched. When one house is destroyed, it is referred to as God's will, but the house that is spared...oh well...that's just an example of God's blessing and divine protection. How can God say that He loves His people whose house he just obliterated?

 

Beautiful. Absolutely beautiful. You've summed up the entire "god problem" very eloquently. I heard a quote on the news the other day about a child that had been repeatedly abused and was ultimately killed. And the idiot said something like, "well god took her away from all the pain," or some such nonsense. Any god that would arbitrarily damn some and save others in identical situations is not worthy of our worship. Think yourself lucky that you got banned from this forum.

[mlr72]

Thanks, Aqua Kitty.

 

Any god that would arbitrarily damn some and save others in identical situations is not worthy of our worship.

 

Now, that was beautiful.

 

The story that you mentioned is the one that finally made me walk away from christianity. You can see the post here: http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?showtopic=20120

[Guest questionmark]

 

A tiny little bio: I'm a Christian.

 

God says "Let each one work out their (own) salvation". I'm grateful for that because I sure as hell cannot work out my relationship, or confusion, with God through the lens of millions of other people's perceptions, opinions, relationships with God, or even their encouragements.

 

Now - what I want to say is: I do not understand *why* no one could simply say, "You know, I don't have the answers"; as if not being in possession of every last single fucking answer automatically puts Jesus in a vulnerable position. But then again - as you are finding out, the true God you seek isn't necessarily repped that well in those types of forums. "Satan really has his claws in you doesn't he?". I'm laughing and shaking my head at this because it is, at its root, such a heartless, inappropriate thing to say to someone.

 

I would like to comment more but its 2:30AM PST and I'm bloody exhausted. So maybe later. I appreciate your post and I'd like to read and digest more.

 

And look...I'm sorry for quoting a scripture, but I felt it appropriate in the light of your recent experience. It's really the thread that keeps me from spitting in the face of the church. And in some ways, I feel relieved that it's OK to struggle this way without fear of being sent to hell.

 

Questionmark, please read Rules for this section:

 

This area is for those who have left Christianity for some other form of theism or spirituality.

 

All members (except apologists) are permitted to post in this area. However, all are asked to especially adhere to the foundational purpose of this site while visiting this section: namely, to encourage ex-Christians.

 

Although Ex-Christian.net has no particular quarrel with deists, pagans, Buddhists, and other forms of non-evangelical spiritual thinkers, at times discussions do have a tendency to create the impression that "ex-Christian" automatically means "atheist." The reality is, ex-Christian only means ex-Christian. Nothing else is implied by the term.

 

In this one area of Ex-Christian.net, each individual who has adopted an alternative spiritual expression should feel encouraged to freely express any experiences, thoughts, or opinions without fear of being brow beaten, harshly criticized, or condemned.

[mlr72]

No worries.

[L.B.]

You know, mlr, I work at a church full-time (don't ask; it's a looong story), and I am constantly amazed at how the people who are the most sure about everything in their Xtian view are the meanest and most abusive and hateful. Seriously... I am a person who sometimes flails back and forth between serious consideration of 'god' and outright venom at anything that resembles fundy thought, and yet I have never even been warned about my caustic comments. I DID get warned once about a little prank I played, but it was all in fun, I apologized and we all went on with life.

 

You're going to find that the deepest-rooted feelings and most heartfelt emotions among fundamentalist Xtians are NOT those of altruism, concern for the lost or any other loving thing. You're going to find that the molten core of Xtian fundyism is made of nothing more than self-preservation. These people give up their daily thought-lives, emotional lives, even their sexual proclivities and political views, all so they can serve their particular brand of monotheistic deity. When you come along and try to honestly ask people to consider scenarios that show their doctrines in poor light, you should expect and definitely will get the most heated of responses, because these people, sane or not, have bet the whole fucking farm on their religion and your questions are akin to giving their tree a mighty strong shake. They are going to scream at you to stop, even if they couch their begging in terms like "pray more" or "You're not seeking god enough".

 

You know why you get the most passionate and hateful replies to the toughest questions? It's simply because you show the Xtian that their bible and their beliefs are not the impenetrable fortress they thought, and they are terrified at the human-centered, made-up plain truth of it all.

 

Welcome. Expect heat here too, but only for the opposite reason: Over there, you get heat for the truth they don't want to hear. Over here, you'll get heat for the lies we've already heard. Do your homework and admit when you are guessing, and you'll be fine. Flourish, even.

 

L.B.

[Aqua Kitty]

The story that you mentioned is the one that finally made me walk away from christianity. You can see the post here: http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?showtopic=20120

 

I was actually referring to this case, but your story is equally heartbreaking.

[Evan]

I'm glad to hear you have broken your ties, but I hope it doesn't leave any long term scars. Stay strong good sir (or good mam?)

[♦ nivek ♦]

+1 Hans

 

Folks with connections to their xtian religion intact and believing are encouraged strongly to particpate their discussions in Lion's Den, or with a more formal bent Arena or Colleseum.

 

kFL

[PandaPirate]

mlr...

 

Set'cher fuckin' oars in water and paddle up a storm.

 

If there is one *pride* ExC has over any other "religious based content Board" on the IntaRWeb, it is that you can blast away with all the barrels you have and can borrow.

 

Ex-C has nada over foru.ms (formerly www.christianforums.com)

 

It's a christian forum with a place for every walk of life...atheists, agnostics, christian baptists, pentacostals, WoF, you name it and it gets REALLY nasty.

 

Below is a small sampling of just the congregation forums:

 

Non-denominational

Spirit-Filled - Pentecostal/ Charismatic

No Creed But Christ -

Restoration Movement

Deeper Fellowship

Anabaptists

Baptists

Wesley's Parish -

Methodist/ Nazarene

Apostolic

Cyber Corps -

Salvation Army

Semper Reformanda -

Reformed Theologia Crucis -

Lutherans Scripture,

Tradition,

Reason-

Anglican/Old Catholic

One Bread, One Body - Catholic

The Ancient Way -

Eastern Orthodox

The Voice In The Desert -

Oriental Orthodox

The Messianic Forum

Seventh-day Adventists

Fundamentalist Churches

Conservative Christians

Moderate Christians

Whosoever Will, May Come -

Liberal House Churches & Cell Groups

Looking for a Church

Denominational

Formal Debates