New question for Christians

[Caretaker]

I am interested in knowing how you all might handle it if a child (or grandchildren) of your own left Christianity and/or informed you that he or she was gay.

 

I really would like to know how well you could handle the news rather than what would you do, as to not serve to incriminate you.

 

Edit: Thinks like sending a kid to "straight camp." If you would do it, don't tell us. If you would not do it, don't tell us either.

 

Edit 2: For comments and discussion, please go to this thread.

 

Edited to strikeout the above. -Reach

[Totallyatpeace]

Wow, Khan.

 

 

If my child told me they were leaving Christianity.....I would want to have nice long talks about it to find out all the reasons for making that decision. I would try and clarify issues if I can and if not, I would simply listen. After all was said.....I would ask them if they are sure. If the answer is still yes.......then that's the answer. I wouldn't love them any less and I will stick by their side.

 

The next situation:

 

If my child came and told me they were gay..........

 

 

same answer.

[Caretaker]

Wow, Khan. 

I hope I didn't shock you too much...

[Totallyatpeace]

No, son.

 

I still love you. tehe.....

[dogmatically_challenged]

Wow, Khan. 

If my child told me they were leaving Christianity.....I would want to have nice long talks about it to find out all the reasons for making that decision. I would try and clarify issues if I can and if not, I would simply listen.  After all was said.....I would ask them if they are sure. If the answer is still yes.......then that's the answer. I wouldn't love them any less and I will stick by their side.

 

The next situation:

 

If my child came and told me they were gay..........

same answer.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I sensed this about you Tap.

 

 

But other christians don't feel the same as you. They have a different vew of scripture and the ignorant, who do not read the bible but only listen to what the pastor or "bible" expert says only picks up on the hate, which scripture gives mixed messages in that regard.

 

This is why a god would reveal itself to us pesonaly. Why would a god use a book, when we can just ask it directly when we are unsure, and get the exact same answer as anyone else who asks god the same questions?

 

That book causes division because it gives mixed messages. And it also is the seed of love as well as hatred and bigotry that we see in people.

[Totallyatpeace]

But other christians don't feel the same as you. They have a different vew of scripture and the ignorant, who do not read the bible but only listen to what the pastor or "bible" expert says only picks up on the hate, which scripture gives mixed messages in that regard.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

The scripture does not tell us to hate they gay person or the non-believer. It also doesn't tell us to judge. However, it does not condone it.

 

 

This is why a god would reveal itself to us pesonaly. Why would a god use a book, when we can just ask it directly when we are unsure, and get the exact same answer as anyone else who asks god the same questions?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I'm not sure about this. I know that you have strong feelings about the "book". As a Christian I recognize it as the Word of God. However....we've been down that road, haven't we?

 

That book causes division because it gives mixed messages. And it also is the seed of love as well as hatred and bigotry that we see in people.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I'm not sure that it gives mixed messages as much as I lack understanding. Either way.......I think the real problem is that people feel the need to take God's place and do the judging for him.

[Ouroboros]

The scripture does not tell us to hate they gay person or the non-believer. It also doesn't tell us to judge. However, it does not condone it.

I like that you have grasped the non-judging part of the Bible. Since I think Jesus clearly states that we shouldn't judge, unless we're going to be judged. And still I don't see this really taking root in most people. In my opinion that is one of the most important lectures from the Bible.

 

I'm not sure about this. I know that you have strong feelings about the "book". As a Christian I recognize it as the Word of God. However....we've been down that road, haven't we? 

I'm not sure that it gives mixed messages as much as I lack understanding. Either way.......I think the real problem is that people feel the need to take God's place and do the judging for him.

Very true. People get greedy for power and to show off their cool religion, so they judge and condemn when they should be forgiving and be kind.

[Caretaker]

No, son.

 

I still love you.  tehe.....

[dogmatically_challenged]

"The scripture does not tell us to hate they gay person or the non-believer. It also doesn't tell us to judge. However, it does not condone it."

 

The O.T. and the N.T. does have hateful language about homosexuals. Then we find scripture that tells us to be tollerant. To say that homosexuls are an abomination for sexual practices that harm no one, and also says they derserve punnishment is giving a mixed message. If we take the human condition into consideration then we will realize that our creator would not use a book, but would be with us in a way that it would tell us when we ask what is right for us to believe and do.

 

Given the human condition people do not have the time or are too tired after putting meat on the table to become bible scholars. So what are you saying then Tap? That your book is a revelation to only those who have lieser? Not everyone has leisure time, and to take your word for what the bible says is in no way a revealation from the holy spirit. It is a second hand revealation; which isn't a revealation at all. Knowlege about god must come from god and not from a human or a book. Its only fair. If your god wants to befair it would be revealing itself to us and would have no need of a book.

 

 

I'm not sure about this. I know that you have strong feelings about the "book". As a Christian I recognize it as the Word of God. However....we've been down that road, haven't we?

Thats ok to not be sure. It beats the hell out of bloody certitude. That is why I repesct you.

 

I'm not sure that it gives mixed messages as much as I lack understanding. Either way.......I think the real problem is that people feel the need to take God's place and do the judging for him.

 

Here is a contradiction as well as a mixed message from bible god. Fact is humans in general are impressed by a leader who leads by example. People want to emulate a leader that leads by example.

 

1 Corinthians 13:4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres

Bible god according to scripture IS love. This means that this is gods nature. scripture puts a limitation on god to love. This is logical statement. Now please dont split hairs betwixt envy and jealousy.

 

 

Fact is; if we have a Creator who IS love and IS a just god and can do anything and knows all, then we would have a very different god than what is given us in that book which is allegedly the scoop on the Creator.

 

A jealous god? The bible ("gods word") describes what love is, then makes the claim that bible god is love AND THEN if we look in the O.T. we see jelous god. This is an outright contradiction. How do we know if people are fibbing? They can't get thier stories straight thats how we know.

 

Christianities gods are not the god of abraham and this is obvious.

reread this thread.

[dogmatically_challenged]

If there is a Creator, maybe there are good reasons that there are some atheist around. certitude can kill.

[dogmatically_challenged]

Thanks Khan. I appreciate it. Although you never specified that debate was not allowed. And this is the debate forum.

 

But I am sorry for cluttering up your thread.

 

( I should probably subscribe so that I can take care of my posts in your thread myself. hehe.)

[Caretaker]

Kein Problem.... As if you didn't know already, I am not a heavy debater...

[dogmatically_challenged]

Kein Problem.... As if you didn't know already, I am not a heavy debater...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You seem like a Socrates to me. But I apologize for cluttering up your thread.

 

It won't happen again.

[Totallyatpeace]

The O.T. and the N.T. does have hateful language about homosexuals. Then we find scripture that tells us to be tollerant. To say that homosexuls are an abomination for sexual practices that harm no one, and also says they derserve punnishment is giving a mixed message. If we take the human condition into consideration then we will realize that our creator would not use a book, but would be with us in a way that it would tell us when we ask what is right for us to believe and do.

 

Given the human condition people do not have the time or are too tired after putting meat on the table to become bible scholars. So what are you saying then Tap? That your book is a revelation to only those who have lieser? Not everyone has leisure time, and to take your word for what the bible says is in no way a revealation from the holy spirit. It is a second hand revealation; which isn't a revealation at all. Knowlege about god must come from god and not from a human or a book. Its only fair. If your god wants to befair it would be revealing itself to us and would have no need of a book.

Thats ok to not be sure. It beats the hell out of bloody certitude. That is why I repesct you.

Here is a contradiction as well as a mixed message from bible god. Fact is humans in general are impressed by a leader who leads by example. People want to emulate a leader that leads by example.

Bible god according to scripture IS love. This means that this is gods nature. scripture puts a limitation on god to love. This is logical statement. Now please dont split hairs betwixt envy and jealousy.

Fact is; if we have a Creator who IS love and IS a just god and can do anything and knows all, then we would have a very different god than what is given us in that book which is allegedly the scoop on the Creator.

 

A jealous god? The bible ("gods word") describes what love is, then makes the claim that bible god is love AND THEN if we look in the O.T. we see jelous god. This is an outright contradiction. How do we know if people are fibbing? They can't get thier stories straight thats how we know.

 

Christianities gods are not the god of abraham and this is obvious.

reread this thread.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

DC~ Here's the bottom line on all you just said.

 

You are trying to seperate God from the Bible and you will never do that with the Christian God. The two go hand in hand. You can't say that one is fine without the other. You either accept God and His book or you don't.

[dogmatically_challenged]

Tap

DC~ Here's the bottom line on all you just said.

 

You are trying to seperate God from the Bible and you will never do that with the Christian God. The two go hand in hand. You can't say that one is fine without the other. You either accept God and His book or you don't.

It has never been shown that the bible is of god, god never told me, he never told millions through out the generations. The silence is damning if we are talking about a god that IS love IS a just god, is omnisamart, and omnipotent.

 

With a combo like that we would logically have a very different god than what the bible describes.

 

Also you never addressed the out right contradiction in the bible. How can we tell if people are just mythmaking? They can't get thier stories straight thats how.

 

And we see this in other religions as well. So how can I righlty choose the bible over the other stories of a creator in the world?

 

If god is omnipresent, omnismart, omnipowerful, and especially omnibenevolent then it logically follows that every individual of every generation would have had guidence from such a god. A god with this combo of attributes has no need of a book.

 

A Christian can lose faith in religion and look for God from within, see God in other people from all walks of life, and can see God in nature. If there is a God then Creation is the only testament that no one can deny. Creation is a superior account of a Creator than a contradictory and inconsistent book.

 

Do you have a rebutal to this?

[Totallyatpeace]

Not really.....at this time.

 

But what does this have to do with the original question he asked....that I answered?

 

I'm not positive...but I think you could make about 15 threads of this one post?!

 

The question had to do with my child turning from Christianity or choosing the gay lifestyle.

[dogmatically_challenged]

Not really.....at this time.

 

But what does this have to do with the original question he asked....that I answered?

 

I'm not positive...but I think you could make about 15 threads of this one post?!

 

The question had to do with my child turning from Christianity or choosing the gay lifestyle.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It was a derailing of the thread. hehe. I never thought about that. Thank you for pointing that out.

 

How would you feel about your child being considered as evil and worthy of a punnishment that is so horrible? I should have asked this instead.

[Totallyatpeace]

Good question.

 

 

It would kill me.

[Alice]

I am interested in knowing how you all might handle it if a child (or grandchildren) of your own left Christianity and/or informed you that he or she was gay.

 

I really would like to know how well you could handle the news rather than what would you do, as to not serve to incriminate you.

 

Edit: Thinks like sending a kid to "straight camp." If you would do it, don't tell us. If you would not do it, don't tell us either.

 

Edit 2: For comments and discussion, please go to this thread.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Khan, although I am no longer a christian as such .... I did face one of my children leaving christianity when I still was ... and I was a youth group leader where I often found myself mediating between parents and teens in this situation ...

 

so answering your question as if I still was ... this is how I handled the situation ...

 

(1) as a youth group leader - I had the priviledge of working with a whole load of really wonderful young people. the two churches where I was a youth worker would have been small organisations by american standards - so usually the teens group numbered between 12 and 20, so I would get to know them all pretty well - and have stayed in contact with quite a few.

 

But although I cared about them, they were not my kids and it was much easier not to get emotionally upset when they voiced doubt or resistance. My advice to other parents was always 'let them go' - I did the 'let go and let God' alot.

 

My experience was that most of the parents who were basically loving good people did that in the end - although generally with a heavy heart. With mean old controlling parents it was a different matter. With parents whose own self esteem was based on their status and approval rating from the church 'family' it was a different matter as well.

 

Now me ....

 

despite my 'progressive' cool approach with other people's kids - when my son first told me he didn't want to come to church anymore and wasn't sure if God really existed or not - I felt like I had been hit by a train.

 

Some where deep inside of me I wanted my children to make the same life choices as me, and I DID actually like the kudos that came from being a 'perfect church family' (I have four kids - a minimum must to be real churchy AND they all have hebrew names!) I didn't want MY children being sighed and tutted over in the prayer meeting and I didn't want the time when my children relied on me to be the font of all knowledge and wisdom to end.

 

So on one level I wanted to 'let go and let God' and be really reasonable - but on an emotional level I wanted to some how make his turning away NOT HAPPEN.

 

I remember going into a sort of emotional free fall and it was really scary.

 

I think I have previously mentioned in another thread how I eventually handled it (thanks to my son's input) and if I'd faced it again - hopefully I'd have responded a little better second time around.

 

(2) I haven't experienced a response to a child coming out as gay either as a parent or during my work as a youth leader.

 

But I guess in churches where homosexuality is seen as contrary to God's will(which is by far the most of them) it would be a kind of 'double whammy' because the one would be seen as hand in hand with the other, so a parent would be dealing with 'my child is leaving christianity AND my child is gay.

 

Which would result in lots of sighing and tutting in your average prayer circle - Which as TAP commented either here or in the comments thread, could 'kill you' as a parent.

 

I suspect, looking back with hindsight, that there were at least one or two in my youth groups who stayed silent about their identity and beliefs, some because they had mean ol controlling parents and weren't strong enough to stand up to the rejection and condemnation that might be dished out, and some because they feared that their good and loving parents just wouldn't have been able to cope with the disapproval of the 'church family' and the dissonance in their own heads.

[Reach]

Khan, with all due respect, concerning having two separate threads on this topic, we currently have these similarly titled topics on the top half of the Debates forum page:

 

Questions for Christian members of ExC

Comments for Questions for Christian Members

Why do you remain a Christian?, Another question for believers

New question for Christians

Comments for "New question for Christians"

 

And then there are these three...

 

Five Questions To Ask An Atheist

4 Questions To Ask An Evolutionist

Five questions to ask a Christian

 

 

I think this thread may get lost in the shuffle. I would suggest merging these two threads.

 

Also, I didn't find a thread you started. All that existed was the thread I created by splitting the topic. Checking on that...

 

Um, ok, now we have a problem. The board automatically sorts posts in chronological order. With TAP's post being the first one now, it appears she started the topic, when in fact, she did not. I think that puts her in an uncomfortable and unfair position.

 

On second thought, I'm going to merge the two back together. (This is turning into a mess already.) Superfluous posts have been deleted to reduce further confusion.

[diggin]

Replying to this question:

 

It has never been shown that the bible is of god, god never told me, he never told millions through out the generations. The silence is damning if we are talking about a god that IS love IS a just god, is omnisamart, and omnipotent.

 

Yes, if there is a God he has been nearly silent to most people for most of history. Jesus appeared to one of the smallest nations of earth, and did a comparatively few miracles according to the New Testament records. I think the mainstream Christian idea that ALL people are expected to embrace these records as fact, and respond by turning their life around, -- and that this is what God expects of ALL or they will be burned forever -- that mainstream idea is ridiculous. If there is a God who is loving, just, and powerful, he has not even begun to attempt the conversion of the world yet.

 

If there is a God then Creation is the only testament that no one can deny. Creation is a superior account of a Creator than a contradictory and inconsistent book.

 

Even there, thinking people can ascribe chance and impersonal forces to explain what exists. I find some of the cosmological writings of Hugh Ross to be encouraging, though I emphatically disagree with his idea that people who don't accept his conclusions are damned.

 

I think you should look at some of the loving promises of salvation for all, in say, Isaiah 25 or 35 or Revelation 21, and then ask, why haven't they happened, and why is Christianity so messed up? I think the answer is that those are the end goals, and lots of work remains to be done. Romans 8:19-25 says clearly that God wanted to develop a few people first, in the midst of confusion. The project is not over yet. Some of the best people in today's world are atheists or agnostics. And some of the best are Christians and Jews, too.

[diggin]

I am interested in knowing how you all might handle it if a child (or grandchildren) of your own left Christianity and/or informed you that he or she was gay.

 

I really would like to know how well you could handle the news rather than what would you do, as to not serve to incriminate you.

 

I believe that the only people who are accountable now for their actions are authentic Christians.

 

A close friend of mine, after spending years as a Christian, announced he was gay. I view that as any other moral deviation mentioned in the Bible -- something anyone can do, and anyone can be redeemed from. How did I handle it? It was heartbreaking for me, and I communicated with him, did not ignore or walk away or simply reject him, either.

 

I have also had friends who were not xtians who became gay. I do not believe such are accountable to God at this time. I am confident that God's love for them as well as for folks who have murdered, stolen, or been religious hypocrites will reach them in the coming age. I believe that all people will be given a 2nd chance, so to speak. (Really, their first REAL chance) Paradise on earth, eutopia, a righeous and loving and caring and sustainable world society....

[dogmatically_challenged]

diggin

We can work together on this in another thread if you like. But I will not start a huge subthread in this thread if you were expecting me to interact with you in regards my posts to Tap. PM me about this and we can start our own thread on this in the debate forum. Others will welcome one with your knowlege. Peace bro.

[dogmatically_challenged]

Replying to this question:

Yes, if there is a God he has been nearly silent to most people for most of history. Jesus appeared to one of the smallest nations of earth, and did a comparatively few miracles according to the New Testament records. I think the mainstream Christian idea that ALL people are expected to embrace these records as fact, and respond by turning their life around, -- and that this is what God expects of ALL or they will be burned forever -- that mainstream idea is ridiculous. If there is a God who is loving, just, and powerful, he has not even begun to attempt the conversion of the world yet.

Even there, thinking people can ascribe chance and impersonal forces to explain what exists. I find some of the cosmological writings of Hugh Ross to be encouraging, though I emphatically disagree with his idea that people who don't accept his conclusions are damned.

 

I think you should look at some of the loving promises of salvation for all, in say, Isaiah 25 or 35 or Revelation 21, and then ask, why haven't they happened, and why is Christianity so messed up? I think the answer is that those are the end goals, and lots of work remains to be done. Romans 8:19-25 says clearly that God wanted to develop a few people first, in the midst of confusion. The project is not over yet. Some of the best people in today's world are atheists or agnostics. And some of the best are Christians and Jews, too.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

My rebutal to you is here.

 

here

 

We can continue discussion on this in a brand new thread.

[BigToe]

Um, I would ask if they needed my help finding whatever resources they wanted for whatever they needed. I honestly wouldn't care. Well, first of all I don't plan on having kids. But if for some reason I do, I think it would be my job as parent to provide for my child what they needed. And that includes support no matter what. Not that I would be opposed to them believing something different than myself or having a sexuality different than my own. Those aren't things I would take up issue with anyway.

 

So how would I handle it? Not any differently than if they were to tell me they were Christian and heterosexual.