WE WON

[thomas]

AUB

 

After reading all the posts in this tread I have come to the conclusion, that I agree with you. I also agree very much, that it is important to focus on all of Christianity - the different versions work together as a whole, and hence must be refuted as a whole.

[Thurisaz]

I love how invictus uses an obviously false sense of sincerity . Its pathetic really how some xians actually try to pretend like they have something intelligent to say .

 

Either that or invictus is a troll .

Or he is just stupid .

 

I vote for "all of the above"

[Thurisaz]

How provocative to I have to get before I get a reaction? I announce the defeat of xtianity (with reasons) and all they do is the usual brat talk. Do I have to de-convert the Pope before they take me seriously?

 

I guess even deconverting RATzinger wouldn't have any effect because, you know, it's not a religion, it's a relationship!!!111!!!

[chefranden]

Chef, you’ll be horrified to hear I’m getting ready to carry on the objective morality debate, I think I see a solution. (Besides you’re the only one to ever go the distance with me).

 

Not at all. I'm a shiver with anticipation. And I've been reading Philosophy in the Flesh, by Lakoff and Johnson.

[crazy-tiger]

CT...I LOVE your happy face tongue sticking out charachter. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I figured I needed to be less serious...

 

 

 

Anything to avoid feeling

[- AUB -]

Jester

I think it may have been pride, pride to stand up and say YES I AM and ATHEIST

 

That is exactly the spirit I wish to encourage. We can’t just keep winning every time and not see the implications, we have won, period. Time to stop humouring theists like their views are even remotely valid. We don’t just disagree, we can the flaws they can’t, like a kinda sixth sense, are perceptions are superior. We can’t say there is no god, but we can say that every argument for such a concept is invalid, they are refuted, we are not.

 

We should be proud to be on not just the winning team but the one that is right, as they are directly linked. Logic and empiricism allows the truth to be known, the xtian fallacies and lies mean they are not right.

 

 

thomas

After reading all the posts in this tread I have come to the conclusion, that I agree with you. I also agree very much, that it is important to focus on all of Christianity - the different versions work together as a whole, and hence must be refuted as a whole.

 

All unreason to, I conclude this in the new postscript to a dialogue on my site.

 

 

Don’t consider it a debate anymore, see it as giving an example of why you are right. Don’t argue, or make it look like its your opinions against there's, just flat out state that they are wrong and explain why. Not to them, as they can’t see the truth, but to those who hopefully can. Their tricks don’t work on us but they are not really meant to, they do this to convince or create confusion or doubt in the audience, you have to let your certainty rub off on them.

 

Explain to the audience that if you simply debated them, they’ll just keep piling on the fallacies and you'll never keep up. On-line forums are OK as you can dissect every sentence, but that does not apply to spoken debates. (+Plus to do a dissection to the degree I do takes a hell of a lot of effort, 10,000 words a day is my max speed). You have to stop with their first series of arguments, take what they say and go though every flaw, show their arguments refute themselves. You don’t have to defeat them with superior reasoning, (though explain that you can) this way is better as they never get away with anything, and can’t get a foot-hold.

 

The only instance when I suggest taking them on is when you have the opportunity to take the moral high ground and lecture them on why their religion or “morals” are so harmful. Reason makes even relativist ethics seem superior to absolute, but that’s another essay.

 

If that it, I’ll see to revising the manifesto and posting it on other sites.

[dr_funkenstein]

I definitely think that there should be some kind of indexed list of common arguments and their associated rebuttals, so that when xtians come here with an argument that has already been refuted someone can simply post a URL directly to the argument and rebuttal. It's then up to the xtian to either come up with something new or be ignored.

[Thurisaz]

Kind of like talk.origin's index for babblical cretinist claims, yes? Interesting idea...

[spamandham]

This is why I posted it here, miss-understandings can be dealt with for the second draft. This is not TAG, (do you honestly think I’d put that little thought into it?) even if we didn’t proceed on the presupposition that they are wrong, it can still be shown not only in past debates but everytime they say anything new.

 

I suspect theists will view it as either arrogance (thus justifying their preconceptions about us) or the equivalent of TAG, and use that to further justify their own presuppositionalism.

 

But, perhaps you're right and it will have the effect of getting them to ask why you've taken that position. Go ahead and give it a try and let's see if it works.

 

I have seen the effectiveness of compassionate reason, and I know it does in fact work on those who are willing to have an honest discussion. Perhaps your approach can be effective on those who are not willing to have an honest discussion.

[Amethyst]

Sam Harris and I are one on this, the liberals need to be de-converted more than the fundies, they are the support and sole reason the cult is respected, or taken seriously.

 

I agree, they should all be deconverted. Nobody takes extremists like Falwell seriously. It's their friends, family, and neighbors who are likely to be moderates or liberals that they listen to.

[♦ nivek ♦]

AUB,

 

I don't argue on the foundational agreements "The Bible is any basis in or of Fact".

 

When a building is started the foundation is laid, everythig is built square from that agreed on lines.

 

Biblical argumentors have no legit starting point with me when arguing ther validity of their points.

 

Tossing dabiibull out, sectarian arguments fall flat..

 

Thanks for your work amigo.

 

kL

[Amethyst]

If there are freethinkers everywhere, why does it seem like everyone I meet is a Christian (and conservative at that)? Is it just in Minnesota? I seem to be in the minority here.

[Lunar Shadow]

If there are freethinkers everywhere, why does it seem like everyone I meet is a Christian (and conservative at that)?  Is it just in Minnesota?  I seem to be in the minority here.

 

 

Hell I live in the SanFancisco Bayarea here and it seem that every one I run in to is a Christian of some sort (I know its not true but it sure seems that way) so no you are not alone

[Amethyst]

Hell I live in the SanFancisco Bayarea here and it seem that every one I run in to is a Christian of some sort (I know its not true but it sure seems that way) so no you are not alone

 

Heh. I usually just assume everyone is Christian, unless they happen to be wearing a Jewish star or Wiccan pentacle or something. I wish agnostics & athiests had something. Maybe we could adopt the Darwin fish?

[Lunar Shadow]

Heh.  I usually just assume everyone is Christian, unless they happen to be wearing a Jewish star or Wiccan pentacle or something.  I wish agnostics & athiests had something.  Maybe we could adopt the Darwin fish?

 

 

hehehe I don't find anything dealing w/ fish enjoyable because it is hitting to close to xtianity if you know what I mean

[Amethyst]

hehehe I don't find anything dealing w/ fish enjoyable because it is hitting to close to xtianity if you know what I mean

 

Hmmm, yeah. We need to come up with something new and copyright it, then make millions of dollars selling it on jewelry and book covers and trinkets and stuff. Just like the Christian fish.

[Guest AscendoTuumDeus]

Good essay. You need to correct some grammer though (I pay too much attention to that sometimes...).

I read your first paragraph and was amazed at how it applied to ATHEIST.

 

Not just the part about “fallacies, half truths and lies”, but more when you said-

 

“They are often immature mentally and behave like tantruming children, irrational and subjective when it fails to go their way.”

 

Go back and read some of the “debates” (for lack of a better word) on evolution, abiogenesis, and the origin of the universe that have been conducted on this site. Try to count the number of times the atheists resorted to “F-you, you idiot”.

 

I have basically stopped posting here due to the lack of people who are willing to “debate” intelligently.

 

Talk about an “endless cycle of unacknowledged victories”.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Then why have you used so many logical fallicies to attack and to insult atheists... Better yet, I will point out every logical fallacy you had...

 

I read your first paragraph and was amazed at how it applied to ATHEIST.

Ad hominem. Possibly ad ignorantium.

 

“They are often immature mentally and behave like tantruming children, irrational and subjective when it fails to go their way.”

 

Go back and read some of the “debates” (for lack of a better word) on evolution, abiogenesis, and the origin of the universe that have been conducted on this site. Try to count the number of times the atheists resorted to “F-you, you idiot”.

 

Ad hominem again. Hasty generalization. Circular reasoning (the Atheist used an illogical comment in a debate; being illogical is wrong; therefore an Atheist's position is wrong). Possibly ignoratio elenchi.

 

I have basically stopped posting here due to the lack of people who are willing to “debate” intelligently.

 

Talk about an “endless cycle of unacknowledged victories”.

 

Once again, ad hominem. Another hasty generalization. And - of course - trivial objections.

 

This is hypocrisy at its best. Maybe this is why people had to result to ad hominem attacks...

 

[- AUB -]

I wish agnostics & athiests had something. Maybe we could adopt the Darwin fish?

 

I’ll look into it, (being a graphic designer).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

AscendoTuumDeus

 

I think we’ve debunked that guy enough. I recommend looking at the way I did it. What’s wrong with my grammar?

[Ro-bear]

What’s wrong with my grammar?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Since you asked, there are several sentence fragments, and you use the possessive "their" in the last part where you need the contraction "they're". There are also some spelling errors.

 

Grammar is not important until your work approaches readiness for publication, so I wouldn't worry about it until then. I would be glad to look it over for you and highlight errors. Being a teacher, I find myself blissfully unemployed for another month or so.

[invictus1967]

“An open mind, not an empty one” is funny.

 

It reminds me of a barn with open doors and all the horses ran out.

 

You have to open the barn to put the horses in, but you must close it to keep them in.

 

A mind that stays open will ultimately be an empty mind.

[crazy-tiger]

“An open mind, not an empty one” is funny.

 

It reminds me of a barn with open doors and all the horses ran out.

 

You have to open the barn to put the horses in, but you must close it to keep them in.

 

A mind that stays open will ultimately be an empty mind.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Good analogy...

Shame that most of the time, the horses stay inside even when the doors wide open.

 

 

I've worked with horses, and the main reason they keep the doors shut? To stop unwanted people or animals getting in...

[Ro-bear]

Ah, but are they US vs. UK spelling errors; i.e. colors vs. colours, specialize vs. specialise?  Are they US vs. UK grammatical errors?  Isn't AUB in Europe?

 

No. "Nonsense" has no "c" in either British or American English. AUB is British, I believe. I don't want to appear critical, as I usually support AUB's work. My wife is very intelligent, but her grammar is sometimes lacking. I long ago learned to avoid reading too much into facility of written expression.

 

As a teacher of high school seniors, Brit Lit is my specialty. I sometimes find myself putting a "u" in the word "behavior", since I'm so accustomed to seeing it that way.

 

I would be glad to make some recommendations for you, thankful. I wish more parents cared enough to provide for their children's education instead of totally delegating the responsibility to the state. Actually, I heartily approve of homeschooling that is done well. Perhaps because I'm a strong advocate of public education, you thought I would disapprove of all alternatives. That is not the case. For my own children, public education is working. If I didn't have to work, though, I'd do it myself.

 

My daughters are seven and nine. Look for my PM in the next day or so.

[white_raven23]

Good analogy...

Shame that most of the time, the horses stay inside even when the doors wide open.

I've worked with horses, and the main reason they keep the doors shut? To stop unwanted people or animals getting in...

 

It's just proof that invictus hasn't bothered to learn anything REAL.

 

He's never picked up a book or story that had horses panicking and running away from their rider to later be found at the barn?

 

Hell he's never even watched an old west movie where the number one sign that something was amiss was a horse returning to the barn sans rider.

 

I suppose if he gets his science from the bible, he thinks rabbits chew their cud too.

[spamandham]

If there are freethinkers everywhere, why does it seem like everyone I meet is a Christian (and conservative at that)?  Is it just in Minnesota?  I seem to be in the minority here.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

There are freethinkers everywhere, but we are a superminority in the general population.

 

In the Dallas area, not only is just about everyone Christian, but we have more than our fair share of the fundy brands.

[spamandham]

I’ll look into it, (being a graphic designer).

 

I like this one for a general symbol

 

 

and this one for a bumber sticker is fantastic

 

 

I ran across other people on the web facing the same issue. Symbols for atheism

 

On that page, the last symbol on the bottom with just a circle and slash is pretty clever I think.

 

The pansy has been the traditional symbol for freethought (dating back to at least 1890), which I suspect is the origin of the "what a pansy" type derogatory statements.