How Do You Deal With Atheists?

[Eccles]

Hi Ruby Sera,

You would remember the forums I was on and how pissed off I got with the brainwashed fundies. Jeez there were some characters, like the one who misunderstood something I wrote about Roman Catholic Doctrine ahd printed it out and gave it to her local Bishop ( a close friend) for further investigation. I hit the bloody roof. Then there was the poor brainwashed girl on another site who had been further brainwashed by that lying crook, Benny Hinn. She claimed she was "married" to Jesus and tried hard to convert all us Atheists. She got fed up and quit the Group.

 

I decided these Groups were a waste of my time. These fundies refuse to use reason and logic and refuse to read anything that would show the truth about religion, especially Christianity. I have spent a lot of time reading objective unbaised history about the foundation of religion and know fully that there is no "God" and the existence of Jesus is doubtfull. So the whole of religion is based on one big lie. Try telling that to a Fundie and suffer the consequences.

 

Yes, people have a right to their "beliefs" but to claim that just because so many millions of people believe in "god" is no proof there is a "god". How many people believe in Santa? Does that mean he is real? He is not real, neither is "God". "God" was made by man, not Man by "God".

[hereticzero]

In the US there is a cult called the Peace Keepers composed mainly of police officers and former police officers. This group should not be confused with Peace Keepers in the military. I do not know if they are organized as PK's but they like to claim they are. I have encountered several members. Their favorite scripture is the Sermon on the Mount ... 'Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.' (Mat 5:9). Kind of makes me sick to my stomache. I've never seen a real peaceful outcome when cops are involved.

[MonolithTMA]

I remember in my more fervent days fully believing that every Atheist, or believer of any other faith than my own, lay in bed at night, staring at the cold emptiness of the world, thinking "Isn't there something more? What if I'm wrong? Does God really exist? Have I been hiding from him?"

 

Now I realize that I was just desperately trying to justify my supposed unwavering belief, but at the time, I was fully convinced that anyone that didn't know "the truth" about Christ was just putting up a front.

 

Remarks like this are what have been, in regards to this forum, giving my life meaning and purpose again. I'm relieved to no longer think like this. It's a huge burden removed to be out of this mindset. I appreciate the honesty in those comments, MonolithTMA. And while I completely understand open discussion with believers, I'm so happy that I'm no longer trying to convince anyone of anything. I'm not ready to be a front line fighter at this time... I'm still in the wounded tent.

 

I think my fellow Christians would do well to really examine their beliefs and I think if they are honest they won't be as certain that they are right and everyone else is wrong. I remember being completely in love with Brother Lawrence and his Practice The Presence of God. Then one day, when my faith wasn't particularly strong I thought to myself, "Why do I have to practice the presence of God? Why, if he's the most powerful being in the universe, do so many of us have to work so darn hard at believing in and following him?" I don't have to practice the presence of broccoli.

 

Still being a Christian, I am waiting for God to answer these questions for me, at least on the days when I still believe in him. Those days come and go.

[R. S. Martin]

In the US there is a cult called the Peace Keepers composed mainly of police officers and former police officers. This group should not be confused with Peace Keepers in the military. I do not know if they are organized as PK's but they like to claim they are. I have encountered several members. Their favorite scripture is the Sermon on the Mount ... 'Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.' (Mat 5:9). Kind of makes me sick to my stomache. I've never seen a real peaceful outcome when cops are involved.

 

Thanks a lot for expressing this concern. I have given it a lot more thought because of your warning. (Just now I came back to this thread to report my decision and found this post.) I read his post a lot more in depth. I see now that there is more at stake here than there was with the other guy.

 

1. There is a subtle appeal on a different level than simply common interests. Also, there are very few other people around. (This just occurred to me and the very thought frightens me. In real life this is a first indication that there is something wrong.)

 

2. In the other case, he was mod and I was member. There were clearly defined boundaries and roles. He kept to his role as I understood the professional role.

 

3. In the other case, both of us were religious. In this case I am challenging his heart and soul. I am not sure what he is doing but it seems to me that he is using reverse psychology to appeal to my heart/intellect.

 

4. I don't see any religious overtones and that is totally inconsistent. Normally I get scared when I note inconsistencies.

 

As I write out these points there's a lot more becomes obvious to me than when I started writing. Heretic, I don't know how much I owe you for your warnings but I sense it's a lot.

 

Another thing that kicked in was Gramps's solemn response to my post about the guy's identity. I've been feeling kind of stupid for this need to share my personal venture on this public forum but once again it's my transparency that saved me.

 

Thanks to my brothers and sisters--named and unnamed--for being there for me and warning me. Thank you.

[R. S. Martin]

Yes, people have a right to their "beliefs" but to claim that just because so many millions of people believe in "god" is no proof there is a "god".

 

I am always amazed that any Christians would make a majority claim. It is downright unscriptural! Jesus said there would be only a few that find the way to heaven.

 

Of course, if you come out of the RCC, you would perhaps never hear about that verse. I come out of a serious minority church so it was quoted every Sunday.

[R. S. Martin]

I think my fellow Christians would do well to really examine their beliefs and I think if they are honest they won't be as certain that they are right and everyone else is wrong. I remember being completely in love with Brother Lawrence and his Practice The Presence of God. Then one day, when my faith wasn't particularly strong I thought to myself, "Why do I have to practice the presence of God? Why, if he's the most powerful being in the universe, do so many of us have to work so darn hard at believing in and following him?" I don't have to practice the presence of broccoli.

 

Still being a Christian, I am waiting for God to answer these questions for me, at least on the days when I still believe in him. Those days come and go.

 

Monolith, thank you for this post. I've been wondering where you stand. You seem sympathetic to our position yet you name the Holy Trinty. At the same time, you seem rather casual in naming them. This explains.

 

You sound a lot like my professor. He says, "On most days I believe most of the Creed." I understand that it is considered legitimate by educated Christians to believe with the heart what doesn't make sense to the head, and to profess it with the mouth.

 

Wow. This is the first time it came to me so clearly. I almost wonder if I want to convert again under those conditions. But no. It feels dark, as though I were regressing to something I grew out of. I would lose the personal integrity that I experience when I accept that there is no deity.

 

However, you will have to find what is right for you. I think the important thing is that you are willing to confront your beliefs and look at them seriously. I think we have scientific evidence that religious beliefs are a psychological phenomenon based on neuro-transmitters or something of that sort. I can provide a link if you're interested in more information. I think religion is also one legitimate way of making sense of life and so long as it is used only for those purposes I see no harm in it. It is when religion is used to abuse power and hurt people that it becomes evil. That is how I see it. And I think that is what this cop has been doing with me. I think he has been using religion as a cover for more sinister pursuits. What can be more perverted than using religion as a cover to take advantage of a person whom one knows does not believe the religion. I guess in the "Lying for Jesus" category (there's a thread on here by that name), anything goes.

[MonolithTMA]

I think my fellow Christians would do well to really examine their beliefs and I think if they are honest they won't be as certain that they are right and everyone else is wrong. I remember being completely in love with Brother Lawrence and his Practice The Presence of God. Then one day, when my faith wasn't particularly strong I thought to myself, "Why do I have to practice the presence of God? Why, if he's the most powerful being in the universe, do so many of us have to work so darn hard at believing in and following him?" I don't have to practice the presence of broccoli.

 

Still being a Christian, I am waiting for God to answer these questions for me, at least on the days when I still believe in him. Those days come and go.

 

Monolith, thank you for this post. I've been wondering where you stand. You seem sympathetic to our position yet you name the Holy Trinty. At the same time, you seem rather casual in naming them. This explains.

 

You sound a lot like my professor. He says, "On most days I believe most of the Creed." I understand that it is considered legitimate by educated Christians to believe with the heart what doesn't make sense to the head, and to profess it with the mouth.

 

Wow. This is the first time it came to me so clearly. I almost wonder if I want to convert again under those conditions. But no. It feels dark, as though I were regressing to something I grew out of. I would lose the personal integrity that I experience when I accept that there is no deity.

 

However, you will have to find what is right for you. I think the important thing is that you are willing to confront your beliefs and look at them seriously. I think we have scientific evidence that religious beliefs are a psychological phenomenon based on neuro-transmitters or something of that sort. I can provide a link if you're interested in more information. I think religion is also one legitimate way of making sense of life and so long as it is used only for those purposes I see no harm in it. It is when religion is used to abuse power and hurt people that it becomes evil. That is how I see it. And I think that is what this cop has been doing with me. I think he has been using religion as a cover for more sinister pursuits. What can be more perverted than using religion as a cover to take advantage of a person whom one knows does not believe the religion. I guess in the "Lying for Jesus" category (there's a thread on here by that name), anything goes.

 

You are quite welcome. The reason I'm casual about naming the names of God is that I think that if indeed he does exist, and some days I very much believe he does (maybe I'm nuts), is that I think, being the all powerful creator of everything, that he must be much bigger than anything we could ever put into words using our finite minds. I have no idea where my faith journey will end, perhaps some day I'll be a full blown Atheist or perhaps my faith will grow stronger. Regardless of where I am spiritually, it is very important to me to respect people and try to understand where they are coming from. It's not easy all the time, because sometimes people from all walks of life will parrot answers that either ring as ungenuine or just plain ignorant. It's tricky to point that out tactfully and keep the conversation going and still let them know you respect them as a person. Difficult though it may be, I still want to try, because it's the respectful thing to do, and because it's how I would want to be treated.

[Kenny]

Regardless of where I am spiritually, it is very important to me to respect people and try to understand where they are coming from. It's not easy all the time, because sometimes people from all walks of life will parrot answers that either ring as ungenuine or just plain ignorant. It's tricky to point that out tactfully and keep the conversation going and still let them know you respect them as a person. Difficult though it may be, I still want to try, because it's the respectful thing to do, and because it's how I would want to be treated.

 

Ah... a much better home planet would we share if everyone got onboard with that one.

[MonolithTMA]

Regardless of where I am spiritually, it is very important to me to respect people and try to understand where they are coming from. It's not easy all the time, because sometimes people from all walks of life will parrot answers that either ring as ungenuine or just plain ignorant. It's tricky to point that out tactfully and keep the conversation going and still let them know you respect them as a person. Difficult though it may be, I still want to try, because it's the respectful thing to do, and because it's how I would want to be treated.

 

Ah... a much better home planet would we share if everyone got onboard with that one.

 

Agreed, I can't imagine it ever happening, but ya never know.

[bellsybop]

I'm going through this same exact thing on another forum too. They will claim you were never a true believer to begin with. It's futile to try to explain or 'convince' any of them of anything! I know everytime I post they sit there in their chairs and think, Oh God, it's her again. But, I continue posting and upset them I'm sure. Maybe someone will get the picture... because in all honesty, that same forum is where I started my questioning and deconversion! It works sometimes... maybe once in a blue moon, but someone's voice made me see. It was actually a Pagan that drew my attention to the beginning of not believing. I'm thankful that I spent my time on that forum... someone saved me!! LOL

[live and learn]

The problem is the way they gloss over things in the bible to avoid cognitive dissonance. I knew all about the shit people did in the old testament when I was a believer, but I could not acknowledge it to myself. That was impossible, because my beliefs were all that stood between me and the imagined dark void.

I guess what I'm saying is that they have such a vested interest that they do not have the capacity to be objective. Faith is not possible without large amounts of denial of reality.

[R. S. Martin]

Bellsybob, I think most of the interaction I had on this forum was okay and educational for me. But what happened at the very end I think I was going to get myself into something seriously dangerous. This fundy cop--or ex-cop, I couldn't figure out for sure, had suggested a challenge I found myself unable to resist. He was asking for a debate on being a rebel.

 

This did not fit the context of the situation because all his former conversations had conversion strategies built into them. I did not see how a debate on being a rebel could have a conversion strategy built into it. I was on the verge of posting a proposal. I just hadn't hit the submit button yet. But first I checked back to this thread. I was watching to see if Heretic Zero was posting any insights I was missing. I was feeling somewhat vulnerable with this cop because I knew I was dealing with a very intelligent and slippery man--a guy who changes identity and tactics like he changes his socks-- maybe even more.

 

Here's the post I had been going to submit:

Before I consider a debate on The System, pirates, and rebels, I would like to have both of the following issues out of the way:

 

1. Do you acknowledge and accept as true my reason for deconverting from Christianity?

 

To refresh your memory, I deconverted because the Plan of Salvation does not hang together in my mind and does not make sense to me. For me to say "I believe that I am saved through the shed blood of Christ" means "In my mind it makes sense that I am saved through the shed blood of Christ." This does not make sense to me for the reasons stated in the Faith thread. Thus, I have to lie to make the profession of faith. I will no longer commit sacrilege and lie about sacred matters. I will not violate personal integrity in this way. Deconversion is my only option on ethical grounds.

 

2. Further, I went to considerable work to answer your question about how scientists, doctors, etc. can go to church regularly. I would appreciate acknowledgement on my quotes from Hodge and Dawkins in the form of comment from you.

 

Heretic Zero warned very strongly against the power of an insulted police officer. And these two items strike at the very heart of this cop's central belief system. Further, it is a power struggle because I am requesting him to do something AT THE COST OF SOMETHING HE WANTS.

 

It is true that an international border runs between him and me but there is InterPol--International Police. The police have their buddy systems. I'm not sure which state he's in but I think it's not all that far from the border and neither am I. What's more, police have access to technology tracking and communication I don't. He could have an officer at my door within minutes if he decided it had to be.

 

I had posted to him that "I live according to The System so long as it doesn't conflict with my values." He wanted more discussion on what I mean by the System. He said something to the effect of, "Obviously this is an appeal to my heart."

 

That is what froze my blood when finally I clued in to what he was saying. "Appeal to my heart" could mean anything. Most of the things fundies say to us, or attribute to us/accuse us of, fit them better than us. I call that reverse psychology. He had been doing A LOT of that. It would logically follow that "appeal to my heart" is reverse psychology and that he really means "appeal to your (my, Ruby's) heart." "Appeal to heart" can also stand in for "appeal to intellect" or "appeal to whatever is important to a person."

 

That is how I chose to take it--appeal to the intellect. I wanted a debate based on a match of intellectual wits.

 

OR, in romantic situations "heart" can be a euphemism for sex. On that forum, which his wife and son also read, he could obviously not use explicitly sexual lingo but he could use euphemisms. I doubt that this is what he meant but I'm brainstorming here.

 

I've been thinking some more about HZ's warnings about Peace Makers. What this cop has told me about his church experiences and what I know about those church's theologies, fits right in with the Peace Maker ideology. What HZ says about the cop "struggling in the spirit" is exactly what the cop has posted and written in pms a large number of times. It's so accurate as to be spooky, given that HZ has not seen those posts and pms.

 

With the cop so desperately "appealing to my heart"...well, it just seems wise to take HZ's warnings to heart.

 

But I think I know about the kind of forum you're talking about. I used to be on a forum where the full spectrum of people posted--all the way from fundy to atheist. I learned so much from a pagan who debated fundies. I was finally exposed to an alternative belief system from Christian.

[bellsybop]

I was just so grateful that they opened my eyes to the fact that the bible wasn't written by god.. the pagan rituals involved in christianity... etc. I was so blind by what I thought was truth that I never realized there was a truth other than what I had been told. I'm glad I finally found this exchristian forum.. it is a world of realistic thinking that supports my new found dis-belief.

[Amethyst]

In my opinion, if dealing with such folk stresses you out or makes you angry, don't do it. Just a thought. What I mean is dealing with the xtians who are stressing you out. NM the atheists LOL.

 

Honestly, I don't really see any point to debating christians on a forum. I was on forums plenty before I deconverted and when non-Christians came in and tried to reason, my reaction was basically the same one we have here to Christians coming in and trying to preach to us. IOW, it wasnt effective at all, and maybe even counter-productive.

 

Do you know what changed my mind the most? Meeting people. Normal, nice people who happened to be non-Christian. Not even atheist necessarily, many of them were agnostic. You have to understand the fear that these people have of the unknown. Atheism is truly probably one of the most fearful things to a Christian. I was always taught to stay away from and fear non-Christians, as they were "of their father the devil."

 

It was only when I began to meet non-Christians in a relaxed, non-combative atmosphere that I realized they were decent folk and not some demons out to steal my soul.

 

Just food for thought.

 

Kel

 

I agree with Kelli. If something is causing you a lot of stress and headaches, it's usually not worth it in the long run. And what changed my mind the most was having non-Christian friends, as well as doing my homework on religion.