Michael Posted March 20, 2008 Share Posted March 20, 2008 1 Timothy 2:4 ... who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. Corinthians 1:19 For it is written: "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate." There are a few threads were this topic has been discussed, but none of them could satisfy me yet. Am I supposed to understand the bible? Why is it, that the bible is so difficult to understand? Am I supposed to study theology in order to get the picture or am I supposed to accept and believe the truth, that has been interpreted by some wise man? What leads to the next question: Which interpretation is the right one? Am I saved when believe? Baptized as a child? Baptized as an adult? Baptized in the HS? Why is salvation hidden in some weird verses, when god wants me to be saved? If he is really interested that I come to a knowledge of the truth, why is it so difficult? I have learned, that you can only understand the bible, when you have the holy spirit as an interpreter. But if all xians have the HS, how can there be so much differences? And before you answer: I was baptized as a child, as an adult, baptized in the HS in front of many witnesses, I have spoken in tongoues and declared, that jesus is lord. But during 20 yrs of reading this book (with the HS) it was just a mystery to me. And if he wants all men to be saved, why is this book alway talking about the "narrow road"? Why is he taking care, that just a few will enter heaven and most of the world will be lost. 95 % in hell 5 % in heaven. Is this "all men"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted March 20, 2008 Share Posted March 20, 2008 Crowd control... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Posted March 20, 2008 Author Share Posted March 20, 2008 Crowd control... But who wants to control? I am not very educated in the area of history, do you speak about the catholic church? A friend of mine is catholic and the priest do not want his "sheeps" to read the bible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted March 20, 2008 Share Posted March 20, 2008 Luther wasn't much better... Sola Scriptus involves a huge amount of cherry picking and semantics... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chefranden Posted March 20, 2008 Share Posted March 20, 2008 1.Am I supposed to understand the bible? 2.Why is it, that the bible is so difficult to understand? I think you have already answered your own questions here. 1. Yes of course you are supposed to understand the bible. 2. Because you are not supposed to understand the bible. Understand? edit: It occurs to me that if you taped a bible to the ceiling you could under-stand it anytime you like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonolithTMA Posted March 20, 2008 Share Posted March 20, 2008 ...if all xians have the HS, how can there be so much differences? Ding! Ding! Ding! The answer to that question is the answer to all your questions. I have known many devout and sincere believers over the years, the ones closest to me are mostly very kind and compassionate. They all would claim that the holy spirit resides in them and guides them, and yet they all disagree on certain issues. Most of them acknowledge this and know that it is because they are human, but most of them also think that the bible is the 100% inerrant word of God. Of course it was supposedly penned by these same types of flawed humans who were guided by the same holy spirit. They all will argue their point based on scripture, because they know their view is correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Posted March 20, 2008 Author Share Posted March 20, 2008 1. Yes of course you are supposed to understand the bible. 2. Because you are not supposed to understand the bible. Understand? edit: It occurs to me that if you taped a bible to the ceiling you could under-stand it anytime you like. I did not get it. It might be my lack of english. I am supposed to understand the bible, because I am not supposed to understand the bible? At least I got the joke Would you mind to help me with this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Posted March 20, 2008 Author Share Posted March 20, 2008 Luther wasn't much better... Sola Scriptus involves a huge amount of cherry picking and semantics... What I wonder is, did the people lie when they "designed" (put the books together) the bible? Or is the real lie their way of interpreting the bible or both? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Posted March 20, 2008 Author Share Posted March 20, 2008 ...if all xians have the HS, how can there be so much differences? Ding! Ding! Ding! The answer to that question is the answer to all your questions. I have known many devout and sincere believers over the years, the ones closest to me are mostly very kind and compassionate. They all would claim that the holy spirit resides in them and guides them, and yet they all disagree on certain issues. Most of them acknowledge this and know that it is because they are human, but most of them also think that the bible is the 100% inerrant word of God. Of course it was supposedly penned by these same types of flawed humans who were guided by the same holy spirit. They all will argue their point based on scripture, because they know their view is correct. Some might say, that they all are right. They just see a tiny bit of god, but they all together can see the whole picture. It is the story with the three blind man that should describe an elephant. One described the tail, one the ears and one the trunk. So they all say something different, but are all right. It is not that this is my personal opinion, but I really want to understand this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted March 20, 2008 Share Posted March 20, 2008 If it's biblical, they're not seeing anything 'divine'... just making up stories to match their own prejudices Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chefranden Posted March 20, 2008 Share Posted March 20, 2008 I am supposed to understand the bible, because I am not supposed to understand the bible? Yes you understood it very well. But I suppose you want it to make sense. However, it doesn't make sense. Once you figure out that it doesn't make sense, you understand it. You might want to keep in mind that the Bible is an anthology of disparate writings loosely connected to the same God. None of it is in real context what ever the priests may tell you. For example the writings of Paul pay little if any attention to anything written in the gospels. Edit: In the first Chapter of Galatians Paul goes to great pains to tell folks that he has little connection with the real disciples and that he didn't get his gospel from them. This again shows the disconnect between various authors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted March 20, 2008 Share Posted March 20, 2008 Luther wasn't much better... Sola Scriptus involves a huge amount of cherry picking and semantics... What I wonder is, did the people lie when they "designed" (put the books together) the bible? Or is the real lie their way of interpreting the bible or both? Both... the text were amended over time (sometimes whole stories moving from book to book) then the stories were assembled in such an order to support the views of the majority... If you ycan find it, take a look at Robert M. Price's The Pre-Nicene New Testement Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Posted March 20, 2008 Author Share Posted March 20, 2008 [Edit: In the first Chapter of Galatians Paul goes to great pains to tell folks that he has little connection with the real disciples and that he didn't get his gospel from them. This again shows the disconnect between various authors. But this is actually an argument of xians. They say, that 88 different books, from different times and regions are making this wonderful sense making book. That is one reason why some people think that this book is holy (OT is matching NT in many many points...) btw. 8+8=16 1+6=7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Posted March 20, 2008 Author Share Posted March 20, 2008 [Edit: In the first Chapter of Galatians Paul goes to great pains to tell folks that he has little connection with the real disciples and that he didn't get his gospel from them. This again shows the disconnect between various authors. But this is actually an argument of xians. They say, that 88 different books, from different times and regions are making this wonderful sense making book. That is one reason why some people think that this book is holy (OT is matching NT in many many points...) btw. 8+8=16 1+6=7 Forget the 88 story, I just counted again. Uh, this is pretty embarresing. There are 66 books (kick me if I am wrong), but the idea is the same. 6+6=12 1+2=3 (trinity) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Japedo Posted March 20, 2008 Share Posted March 20, 2008 There are a few threads were this topic has been discussed, but none of them could satisfy me yet. Am I supposed to understand the bible? Why is it, that the bible is so difficult to understand? Am I supposed to study theology in order to get the picture or am I supposed to accept and believe the truth, that has been interpreted by some wise man? What leads to the next question: Which interpretation is the right one? Am I saved when believe? Baptized as a child? Baptized as an adult? Baptized in the HS? Why is salvation hidden in some weird verses, when god wants me to be saved? If he is really interested that I come to a knowledge of the truth, why is it so difficult? Easy answers. 1) The buybull was written by tribal men with triable beliefs. It only makes sense if you're illiterate and are told what it means by some self appointed leader who cherry picks and rationalizes a verse here and there. It helps if you're insecure and don't think you can't think for yourself and take everything you're told to be true without question for fear of pain, abandonment, torture or even death. 2) You'll have a whole new perspective on the buybull if you learn foundation interpretations such as Judaism. There entire perspective on early books of the buybull are 100% opposite of the Christian dogma, hence it makes it a lot easier to dismiss the "new books", over time at least for me I was able to reject all the books after using the same criticisms and applied basic justice and fairness to stories. If the stories are unjust on a human level then they for sure can't be the standard of any god who is suppose to be greater then man. 3) Contradictions are the first clue that the buybull is fallible and not given by any perfect being. 4) Many of it's defenders have the same argument. They cherry pick, and defend with fervor only certain points. Anyone who questions or uses the same buybull against them using contradicting verses the defender pulls the same bullshit card of one of the following to blindly dismiss any questions: You're taking it out of context. Satan is trying to confuse you. It doesn't mean what it says. or You're not fair you're twisting gods word to fit your own agenda. These answers make the apologist feel superior while dismissing the questioner as beneath them and not having to have an answer. Such is the art of politics/apologists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonolithTMA Posted March 20, 2008 Share Posted March 20, 2008 If you ycan find it, take a look at Robert M. Price's The Pre-Nicene New Testement Dammit, I want that book too! I'm going to go broke with all these wonderfully informative books! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonolithTMA Posted March 20, 2008 Share Posted March 20, 2008 [Edit: In the first Chapter of Galatians Paul goes to great pains to tell folks that he has little connection with the real disciples and that he didn't get his gospel from them. This again shows the disconnect between various authors. But this is actually an argument of xians. They say, that 88 different books, from different times and regions are making this wonderful sense making book. That is one reason why some people think that this book is holy (OT is matching NT in many many points...) btw. 8+8=16 1+6=7 Forget the 88 story, I just counted again. Uh, this is pretty embarresing. There are 66 books (kick me if I am wrong), but the idea is the same. 6+6=12 1+2=3 (trinity) Did you find yet another bunch of holy books?!?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted March 20, 2008 Share Posted March 20, 2008 If you ycan find it, take a look at Robert M. Price's The Pre-Nicene New Testement Dammit, I want that book too! I'm going to go broke with all these wonderfully informative books! Try The Book Depository... the best damned independent bookshop in the world... and free postage to the US! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted March 20, 2008 Share Posted March 20, 2008 [Edit: In the first Chapter of Galatians Paul goes to great pains to tell folks that he has little connection with the real disciples and that he didn't get his gospel from them. This again shows the disconnect between various authors. But this is actually an argument of xians. They say, that 88 different books, from different times and regions are making this wonderful sense making book. That is one reason why some people think that this book is holy (OT is matching NT in many many points...) btw. 8+8=16 1+6=7 Forget the 88 story, I just counted again. Uh, this is pretty embarresing. There are 66 books (kick me if I am wrong), but the idea is the same. 6+6=12 1+2=3 (trinity) Carl Sagan addressed that in Broca's Brain in the 80s and things like the Bible Code have shown to hold true on any text in any syllable based language... you can make some pretty good numerical and Bible code stuff from any sufficiently large text... I liked Moby Dick predicting not only Sadat's assassination but the name of the assassin in the same text sub block... so, unless God was making predictions through Melville, that sort of numerical Rorschachery is just seeing faces in trees and dragons in clouds... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L.B. Posted March 20, 2008 Share Posted March 20, 2008 Fact is, the leaders of the so-called "New Testament Church" were all Jewish. In the 300s the Roman officials were manning the newly-taken-over pagan temples that Constantine was using in his so-called "Christian" worship. They dispatched some leaders down to Jerusalem to tell the (jewish) leader of the "church" there that his services were no longer necessary. A Gentile would now be running things there, as in other "churches". Once the Gentiles were in charge and the Jews who HAD been the leaders of the "Yeshua" movement had been chased out, it was easy for the Gentile leaders to cherry-pick which so-called "scripture" they wanted to use... They now had a powerful, un-challengeable "priesthood" in place that could not be questioned about their interpretations of things, upon fear of banishment and even death. None of this goes to say that I believe that we should all follow a Jewish guy as our Lard and Slaver, but I DO believe that there was once a movement within or version of Judaism that encompassed faith in Yeshua and was radically different from today's Christianity. That is why today's Christianity makes no fucking sense... it's because there is a genetic, logical and theological disconnect from the roots of the movement within Judaism that gave it its framework. Other commenters so far have been absolutely correct in saying that orthodox Jews don't believe in "Jesus" or Christianity precisely because there are too many ways in which Old Testament prophecy has to be fucked with and twisted in order to make the new fables palatable. See, Michael? You CAN'T understand the Bible because even though the Bible says that God wants people saved, the original intent of the leaders of Christianity was to INSIST that laypeople such as yourself NEVER read or be able to grasp the Bible's meaning. Protestants and their individuality be damned, pun intended... No matter who goes around saying they are led by some UberGhostie to be correct in their Biblical interpretations, the INTENT of the founders of modern, Gentile Christianity was for none of us to hear or comprehend anything without the divine guidance of the anointed leaders of the secret, powerful priesthood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Posted March 20, 2008 Author Share Posted March 20, 2008 @ Grandpa harley I know german people are not supposed to have humor, but I was kidding with this numerical stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted March 20, 2008 Share Posted March 20, 2008 Sorry, it was sort of a reference for people who may be swayed even by a joke Sorry Was the Amazon.de link any use? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Posted March 20, 2008 Author Share Posted March 20, 2008 Was the Amazon.de link any use? Thank you. It sounds interesting and I have never heard about it. Gosh, 1248 pages makes a big book. Have you read it yet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonolithTMA Posted March 20, 2008 Share Posted March 20, 2008 If you ycan find it, take a look at Robert M. Price's The Pre-Nicene New Testement Dammit, I want that book too! I'm going to go broke with all these wonderfully informative books! Try The Book Depository... the best damned independent bookshop in the world... and free postage to the US! Thanks for the tip! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Posted March 20, 2008 Author Share Posted March 20, 2008 I want to go back to the OP. Is xianity about a god who wants to save as many as possible or is it about one god choosing people for various reasons, without any understandable rule or order? And if I would assume that this book is by god, would it help me in any way to find truth and knowledge? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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