God Is An Illusion

[Brother Jeff]

 

Believe it or not, nothing is moving in the above image! The appearance of movement is an optical illusion. In much the same way, people who believe in god tend to believe that they see god active in the world and in their lives. God may well be a comfortable illusion in some respects, but he is still an illusion. The minds of believers are filled with religious dogma and rationalizations for god’s alleged behavior in a given circumstance, but god is not really there doing or not doing anything. What we think we see based on our preconceived ideas and beliefs does not always reflect actual reality. Mankind has dreamed up thousands of gods and a great deal of conflicting and contradictory religious mythology to go along with the god myths over the centuries, but despite the claims of religions and believers in them, there is no credible evidence that a god of any kind actually exists. God never does or says anything, which is hardly surprising since he doesn’t exist. If you think god exists, then take a moment to step back from the comfort of your mythology and take an honest look at the reality of the situation, and think again!

[Guest eejay]

I agree with you Brother Jeff. Problem is, the majority of people won't accept that it is an illusion. I am a person who has become a lot happier since ditching the god belief. Why? Because I see reality for what it is. Instead of being disappointed, as I often was in the past, because god didn't hear my prayers, or answer in times of need, it is much easier to accept that shit happens, and that we are the only source of answers. Facing tough situations is just so much easier for me. And since I don't have any unreal expectations anymore the disappointments are less. Once the blinders are off and you can see clearly, you just can't go back to believing the myths. At least for myself, I can't see why the average person wouldn't even consider listening to this side. However, my sister wouldn't dare listen to what I have to say any more than your siblings.

[Deva]

It all depends on how you define the word "God".

[Guest florian]

 

In much the same way, people who believe in god tend to believe that they see god active in the world and in their lives. God may well be a comfortable illusion in some respects, but he is still an illusion.

 

Jeff,

 

You may say that God is an illusion, and that may be true. Actually it's definitely true for You.

 

What I want to ask you is whether You can explain me a little bit of Your understanding. I can see that the image-evidence You use is a provocation. I do not believe that You can use a man-made theologically-unrelated evidence for the non-existence of my God. It is not theological, not even from day-to-day life.

 

I agree with You that God is a comfortable illusion, meaning He can give help to people who are distressed. I am one of them. I'm a Romanian student, believer, with my fears, problems, worries etc. I have found the "evidence" (in my opinion) in the unseen emotional help of prayer for instance. And at the same time I have found REAL (for me satisfactory) evidence in the Holy Scriptures, theology, archaeology, history, all of them taught in a religious-secular environment. Do You see a problem with that?

 

It is important for the way I think to consider evidence a verse like this:

 

Lk.24:39 Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have."

 

The Bible is important for me. I don't know whether it is important for You. What do You say?

 

And I also want to know more about the way You see this god-illusion. Waiting for reply.

[Brother Jeff]

Hello florian, and welcome to the forums!

 

God is a myth. That is my understanding after years of research and thought. You can read more about that here:

 

http://christianityisbullshit.com/brother-...y-in-two-parts/

 

I don't need to disprove your god. The burden of proof is on you as a believer to prove that your god does exist.

 

I could find comfort in prayer myself simply as an emotional exercise, but that wouldn't make any god that I prayed to actually real.

 

Achaeology and the bible often do not agree, so yes I do see a problem:

 

http://www.worldagesarchive.com/Reference_...t_(Harpers).htm

 

http://www.geocities.com/paulntobin/biblea...l?200825#archae

 

The verse you quoted is just religious mythology written decades after the alleged event by an anonymous author:

 

http://www.geocities.com/paulntobin/bibleanalysis.html

 

I am an American student and atheist with my own fears, problems, worries, etc. But I see no valid reason to believe in a god...

[Brother Jeff]

Perhaps this thread should be moved to the Lion's Den?

[Brother Jeff]

It all depends on how you define the word "God".

True. When I refer to "God", it is usually the God of the Bible, but almost always an athropomorphic theistic god of some sort.

[Neon Genesis]

What I want to ask you is whether You can explain me a little bit of Your understanding. I can see that the image-evidence You use is a provocation. I do not believe that You can use a man-made theologically-unrelated evidence for the non-existence of my God. It is not theological, not even from day-to-day life.

What proof do you have that the bible is not a man-made theologically-unrelated evidence for the existence of God in itself? Isn't the bible itself just as much of a provocation as Jeff's image is? You criticize Jeff for being "provocative" but then you turn around and spout out random bible verses for the sole purpose of provocation. Isn't that hypocritical and dishonest of you? Unless you have actual evidence that the bible is true, what makes the bible any different than Jeff's image? And no, you cannot use the bible to prove that what the bible says is true. I want actual psychical evidence that the bible is true. And let's test if prayer really works, why don't you try praying for God to magically appear before us right now and prove his existence to us? The bible says to ask and ye shall receive. If our prayer is answered and God does appear before us, then it'll turn out the bible is true. If the prayer doesn't work and God does not appear before us, then either 1) the bible lied and God is not real or 2)God does not care that we believe he is real and so God is not all-loving and so the bible lied.

[hereticzero]

I haven't seen any proof from florian that anything the bible says about anything is the truth. Prove the bible is true and I especially want florian to prove the story about the talking snake is true.

[Guest Net Eng]

In much the same way, people who believe in god tend to believe that they see god active in the world and in their lives. God may well be a comfortable illusion in some respects, but he is still an illusion.

 

Jeff,

 

You may say that God is an illusion, and that may be true. Actually it's definitely true for You.

 

What I want to ask you is whether You can explain me a little bit of Your understanding. I can see that the image-evidence You use is a provocation. I do not believe that You can use a man-made theologically-unrelated evidence for the non-existence of my God. It is not theological, not even from day-to-day life.

 

In the same way the still image fools us into believing that it is in motion coincidence and happenstance give the illusion of events made in motion by god.

 

 

I agree with You that God is a comfortable illusion, meaning He can give help to people who are distressed. I am one of them. I'm a Romanian student, believer, with my fears, problems, worries etc. I have found the "evidence" (in my opinion) in the unseen emotional help of prayer for instance. And at the same time I have found REAL (for me satisfactory) evidence in the Holy Scriptures, theology, archaeology, history, all of them taught in a religious-secular environment. Do You see a problem with that?

 

Yes. Because people of faith have a way trying to impose their belief on others (like me). Just because you like a comfortable delusion does not make it true. That is my problem with faith.

 

 

It is important for the way I think to consider evidence a verse like this:

Lk.24:39 Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have."

 

If this is evidence then we have much to discuss.

 

 

The Bible is important for me. I don't know whether it is important for You. What do You say?

 

The bible has changed many times over the years. It has been used to denigrate women and justify wars et. al. ad nauseam.

 

And I also want to know more about the way You see this god-illusion. Waiting for reply.

 

See above.

[Piprus]

Florian,

 

Your response to Brother Jeff indicates that you have a close emotional tie to the god-belief. Fine, if that is how you want to define yourself and your life. But there are those of us who do not have such an emotional bond to a belief system. And the keyword here, is emotional. I do not share that emotional elation that you have experienced. I once did, but thought through that experience critically, and found it no more genuine than a reaction to a great movie or a well-written novel. Religious ecstacy IMO is a human trait, but no more demonstrably connectable to a real supernatural being than to the results of a drug-high.

[Ouroboros]

Perhaps this thread should be moved to the Lion's Den?

I prefer not. I think your OP is profound and got some serious insightful value. This is a different view I haven't thought of before, and I appreciate new ideas. You started a "new thread" in my brain.

[Ouroboros]

It all depends on how you define the word "God".

True. When I refer to "God", it is usually the God of the Bible, but almost always an athropomorphic theistic god of some sort.

It would account for any creator god, or divine designer. The universe has the illusion of being designed, since we are part of the universe and we can design things within the framework of it.

[Brother Jeff]

Perhaps this thread should be moved to the Lion's Den?

You started a "new thread" in my brain.

 

Glory!

[Guest florian]

Sorry for the delay. I wasn't too sure how I'd answer to all of you cause you're many and i'm one

 

I liked the warm welcome and answer of Bro Jeff, he's got a point there: archaeology and prayer - happy it was useful

 

I would avoid talking to Neon since he's a mocker, who can then talk to him? i hope, Neon, that you won't be angry at me, only that you do not take seriously Jeff's words - i didn't refer to Jeff's provocation in a scornful manner, no, not at all - his provocation is welcome - i'm also free to "provoke"

 

With Narcissus i don't wanna talk right now, even if i appreciate the non-violent manner he addressed me

 

I appreciate "Tech geek" for the short analysis and I can see he's skillful. You're right, i haven't brought any proof there

 

I'm happy for Hansolo, for the discovery he made on Jeff's topic. He enjoys intelectual insights and that it something we've got in commun - you know, that's one of life's beauties!

 

But I was more interested in what Piprus wrote - he read, waited until he grasped a little bit of what i intended to say and he was right:

 

"Fine, if that is how you want to define yourself and your life. But there are those of us who do not have such an emotional bond to a belief system"

 

we are free, so free!

 

I could see how a few of you think

 

- this is one of my first contacts with ex-christ - and i wanted to see how it is like

 

- U know, here in Romania we don't really get to know people like you

 

- and besides i lack the life experience (i'm only 23) concerning ex-christian thought

[Deva]

I could see how a few of you think

 

- this is one of my first contacts with ex-christ - and i wanted to see how it is like

 

- U know, here in Romania we don't really get to know people like you

 

- and besides i lack the life experience (i'm only 23) concerning ex-christian thought

 

So, Florian, what do you think? Who are "people like us"?

[R. S. Martin]

- this is one of my first contacts with ex-christ - and i wanted to see how it is like

 

- U know, here in Romania we don't really get to know people like you

 

- and besides i lack the life experience (i'm only 23) concerning ex-christian thought

 

I never understand this. Why do people come on here and post before reading if their goal is to learn how we think? The best way to learn is to READ!

 

And you judge that Neon is a mocker??? He is a questioner. You refuse to answer the sincere questions of a sincere questioner. You may end up having blood on your hands. The NT does say to be prepared to give an answer to every man who asks. Apparently Christians think this does not mean them.

[Neon Genesis]

Sorry for the delay. I wasn't too sure how I'd answer to all of you cause you're many and i'm one

 

I liked the warm welcome and answer of Bro Jeff, he's got a point there: archaeology and prayer - happy it was useful

 

I would avoid talking to Neon since he's a mocker, who can then talk to him? i hope, Neon, that you won't be angry at me, only that you do not take seriously Jeff's words - i didn't refer to Jeff's provocation in a scornful manner, no, not at all - his provocation is welcome - i'm also free to "provoke"

And I'm free to ask you for evidence that God exists. How is what I said mocking your post? You claimed that your God could not be disproved, and are making extraordinary claims that your God is real, so where's your exraodinary evidence that he is? Unless you have extraordinary evidence to support your exraordinary claims your God is real, then what gives you the right to bash Jeff for his post? And yes, you did too scorn Jeff's post when you posted this, "I do not believe that You can use a man-made theologically-unrelated evidence for the non-existence of my God. It is not theological, not even from day-to-day life." You claim your God is real, but when Jeff disproves your claims, you turn around and say that he can't do that for some bizarre reason. If that isn't scornful, please explain what is.

 

 

 

- and besides i lack the life experience (i'm only 23) concerning ex-christian thought

If you lack the life experience of ex-Christian thought, how do you know that what I posted was mockery, especially if you've never even met ex-Christians before?

[florduh]

Brother Jeff did it again! Good insight and start of a good thread.

 

Hello, florian! Welcome. Of course you will be outnumbered here, but many will be happy to discuss things with you. Just don't use the Bible to prove the Bible. A lot of us are very familiar with that book, some even former theologians and others currently involved in formal studies. We know the Bible - make no mistake.

 

Also, you are doing very well with English. Don't be afraid to ask if any terms we use are unfamiliar to you.

 

The optical illusion analogy is right on target. When we have a strong preconception about something we tend to see things in a way that fits what we already think. We not only fool our eyes, but we can also fool our minds.

 

- Chris

[Guest florian]

Neon, i see now that you were not mocking at my reply. i do not know the way you think, that's only what it looked like you were saying.

 

+ don't i have the right to get to know you a little, not from the books? must admit, i haven't read ex-christian related books, that is why i'd be delighted if you suggested me one - even send digital one by mail

 

"I do not believe that You can use a man-made theologically-unrelated evidence for the non-existence of my God. It is not theological, not even from day-to-day life." - in what way is it a bizarre reason?

 

You claimed that your God could not be disproved, and are making extraordinary claims that your God is real - no, i am not making any extraordinary claims - i do not have such proof, i'm not that well-trained

 

what do you understand through extraodinary evidence?

 

+ would such an evidence would be enough for you, if someone came with one, someday?

 

and i did not bash Jeff's post, i just said i did not agree with him for one simple reason

 

wait your reply

[Guest florian]

I never understand this. Why do people come on here and post before reading if their goal is to learn how we think? The best way to learn is to READ!

 

And you judge that Neon is a mocker??? He is a questioner. You refuse to answer the sincere questions of a sincere questioner. You may end up having blood on your hands. The NT does say to be prepared to give an answer to every man who asks. Apparently Christians think this does not mean them.

 

........that means that other people like me try to talk and after that they step back - i tell you my reason - cause i'm afraid of you, that you could make me change my mind - must admit that

 

ok, i haven't read any books, and sorry if i made you waste time with me, by answering - for the moment this is the way i wanna know you

 

ok, i admit, neon is a questioner, didn't see that

 

and the NT argument, where can i find it? is it 2Pt.3:15? but what about the blood on my hands? - i do not understand

 

i read your story and i must admit it is a disturbing one because i wouldn't like it to happen to me; it could have happened in the adventist church but it hasn't happen yet

 

+ we've got some things in commun and i smiled a little when i read:

1. i'm studying theology now, i'm a beginner

2. i found comfort in prayer just like you did some time ago

3. i had a lot to suffer in the eastern-orthodox church - and personal life, but i had to survive

 

i'm happy you found a break-through. that it at least what someone can do in this miserable life

 

have nice day!

[Ouroboros]

........that means that other people like me try to talk and after that they step back - i tell you my reason - cause i'm afraid of you, that you could make me change my mind - must admit that

You just got a gold star. Honesty buy points by me.

[Legion]

........that means that other people like me try to talk and after that they step back - i tell you my reason - cause i'm afraid of you, that you could make me change my mind - must admit that

You just got a gold star. Honesty buy points by me.

I second that.

[Japedo]

Sorry for the delay. I wasn't too sure how I'd answer to all of you cause you're many and i'm one

 

I liked the warm welcome and answer of Bro Jeff, he's got a point there: archaeology and prayer - happy it was useful

 

I would avoid talking to Neon since he's a mocker, who can then talk to him? i hope, Neon, that you won't be angry at me, only that you do not take seriously Jeff's words - i didn't refer to Jeff's provocation in a scornful manner, no, not at all - his provocation is welcome - i'm also free to "provoke"

 

With Narcissus i don't wanna talk right now, even if i appreciate the non-violent manner he addressed me

 

.........and all the rest.....

 

Flor, Please put on your flame resistant suite before reading my reply.

 

Do you have any idea how condescending this post sounds? You are the one that choose to not only sign up at a place called Ex-Christian, but you took it upon yourself to post on Jeff's Topic. You are the one that typed out a response. Now you dismiss thoes who make you uncomfortable with honest well thought out questions and problems with the dogma as not being worthy enough for you to give an answer to? Common. What about Neon made him a "Mocker"? Are you kidding me?

 

Many Christian believe they are allowed to be condescending and self righteous but are in total shock when someone replys to them in the same manner. Please get over yourself, you don't get a special get out of hell free card here because of your belief in a magic sky god. You don't get to blindly tell us how it is without being confronted to hold up your side with more then just buybull verses. You have the courage to tell us all how it is, but you don't have balls enough to take the heat or be questioned on anything you say.

 

We are many and you are one? How lame, You're suppose to have the superior guidance of the all knowing God compared to us lowly worthless godless blind heathens. You're suppose to be surrounded with all truth and clear understanding. Seems to me like you honestly don't know diddly about the god you claim to "know" you also don't have enough faith in your god to give you answers and yet blame the evil non-believers on their tone.

 

/rant off

 

Jeff.

 

I have to say that the OP is profound to me on many levels. Some of us know it's an illusions, others would rather believe in some magic trick to get the drawing to move. Nice Job!!

[par4dcourse]

Thank you Japedo. You saved me several minutes of posting.

Read flo, and take heed.