Should We Attempt To Get 'rid' Of Christianity In Others?

[DarthOkkata]

I expanded a bit on a post I made on another thread here. A warning to Christians, it's a bit harsh. I do think it's something of a problem in the US right now.

 

It's kind of like realizing that there are five empty Vodka bottles on the floor of the cab you're locked in the back of, and that the driver doesn't speak English, just after you realize he's driving head on into oncoming traffic.

 

Deconversion is the only hope for the future of America.

 

We actually wrote a treaty, called the Treaty of Tripoli, drafted by the founding fathers themselves, that clearly states we are not, nor should we ever be, a Christian nation.

 

Here is a link: http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/treaty_tripoli.html

 

Christianity is a problem because it acts like a virus, infecting others and spreading.

 

They're the ones at the driver's wheel in the US, and it sucks ass.

 

Christians become a problem when they start expecting 'the rapture' to sweep in and make all our current problems irrelevant. Things like, global warming, litter, industrial waste, underdeveloped nations, understanding the universe before it kills us, hostile interest abroad, and US religious laws.

 

They do have time to breed hatred between other religions, and anyone who doesn't agree with them and the bible's impossible and improbable moral code. They were pretty good at helping out racism, oppression, and slavery, until they became taboo with the public at large. Then they got around to changing their story.

 

Plus the tendency to splinter off into rival sects, that sometimes fight actual wars with each other. Boy, does that sound familiar.

 

As such, they become no earthly good, and spend their time playing moral police on trivial issues, while ignoring larger problems. You'd barely know there was a war going on at all. Even watching the news most of the time gives little indication. "God, that Paris Hilton is such a slut isn't she? Brittney is so stupid, remember when she was hot?!"

 

They are also dangerous to other people. Their delusions can be used to manipulate them into doing terrible things. What do you think happed to all those nice Germans in the Nazi party? It seems prudent to remind that the swastica is an ancient Christian symbol, that's just not used anymore.

 

Let's not forget the time before the failed attempt, when they did control most of the known world. You know, the Dark Age.

 

There are enough in the US now to make a real problem, should they all decide they didn't like a particular group. Read a history book before you tell me how unlikely it is.

 

They are selfish and materialistic. Out of sight, out of mind rules their brains. If the area around them is secure and prosperous, then the world is fine. That's generalizing a bit of course. I'm of a mind God doesn't really motivate most missionaries. Empathy is not a Christian monopoly.

 

They are brainwashed and delusional. They react to certain words with anger and hatred that is easily converted into violence in far too many. It's been conditioned into them, but is surrounded by lots of love talk that sounds nice and has no real meaning. Abortion is a good example of this behavior.

 

They think the way their organization tells them to think. Remember, having an impure thought is a sin too. While independent in social life, they act as one politically, and seek to have their own in power, barring all others from it.

 

Just try and run as an Atheist, Muslim, Hindu, Jew, or anything that doesn't think God has a strapping lad by the name of Jesus, who may also be him.

 

It's gotten to the point I'd almost be relieved if we got invaded by Canada. I can learn to like hockey. Jesus, not so much.

 

Let the kids with terminal disease put their faith into a possible cure for what might kill them. Tell them dying is like going to sleep. No need to add an imaginary fantasy Disneyland in the sky.

 

It's like telling them you're going to take them to Florida and Disneyworld, and then kicking them down a slide with a hose running water down it in a rat costume.

 

Jesus can be just as cruel to them as anyone else, turn on your television on a Sunday morning and watch a few 'faith healings' if you don't believe me. Watch them cry and revel in the holy spirit, only to hobble or get carried away, just as sick as they were when they got there.

 

It's really silly for anyone to try and claim that these people aren't real 'christians' either. They are the real Christians. They've got more faith than you do, and that's exactly what's wrong with them.

 

It's not Satan's manipulations, it's not just plain old nutjobs, nor is it something in the water.

 

It's people who drank just a bit too much of the Holy Spirit, and are now in a permanent state of belligerent, angry, drunk person in an argument with police about how much he's had.

 

Those -are- the 'real' Christians.

 

Fuck Jesus, he's ruined my democratic secularist nation, and turned it into a crusade running empire of zombified, brainwashed, ignorant, easily distracted, puppets.

 

As far as I'm concerned, he doesn't need anymore friends.

 

The fundies aren't the target. It's those who go to Church, and vote Republican because they're supposed too. The one's who think that they're too busy to worry about the government and the details of loving god. They pray, and god will take care of the rest. The half assed Christians, too lazy, busy, and comfortable to notice the train wreck their riding in, and there's a lot more of them than there are fundies.

 

It's not a problem you can 'kill' either. Education is the only cure, we have to idiot proof it.

 

Science is doing that for us every day, but it may take too long.

 

It's not just that most of America is stupid. A stupid person can be independent, and lots of them are not likely to do the exact same thing all the time.

 

That is, until you throw in that one special ingredient that compliments and controls stupid so well.

 

Jesus.

 

What we are dealing with here, is intentional ignorance. People who don't want to think about things because God has that covered for them. So why bother worrying?

 

Stealing a line from Skankboy here to add to my point. "Is it more cruel to do an intervention on a drug addict if their addiction makes them appear happier than it is to leave them be?"

 

I think we need as many Atheist as we can possibly convert. Though, I'm not about to go witnessing myself. I'm not afraid of the subject in conversation either though.

 

I'm not talking about extermination by any means. There will always be weird cults. The issue is making sure they become the minority by idiot proofing our children's education.

 

Someone is going to have to ram some facts down America's throat and make sure they stick. Therein lies the problem, as Jesus has a non stick surface.

 

Too bad he's only good for storing bullshit that doesn't stink.

 

It's a frustrating dilemma.

[R. S. Martin]

It's gotten to the point I'd almost be relieved if we got invaded by Canada. I can learn to like hockey. Jesus, not so much.

 

Hey thanks for your vote of confidence. We're not into invading and empire building but we do take immigrants, political refugees, and such. I'm sure something could be worked out. Knowing or understanding hockey is not a prerequisite for being Canadian. Heck, I don't know much about the game myself.

 

But we'd still be stuck with the blind and stupid fundies south of the border intent of dragging the continent into chaos and the Dark Ages right along with them and their equally blind and stupid counterparts north of the border who parrot them in word and deed, and possibly even feed it at times. I'm not sure how all of this works but I'm convinced there is a global network of these stupids that feed off each other.

 

And some of these are in high and powerful places that have nothing to do with goverment. I'm talking about intellectual elite. So long as men with PhDs in science from Oxford can "prove" that the Bible is true, Christianity is not going to go away. The masses trust the scientists who believe the right things. And they're out there! I've seen them on the internet.

 

And I've talked with enough fundies to know the power of their influence.

 

In my opinion, converting people to atheism one by one is too inefficient, though not to be discounted and downplayed, but not the most efficient and strategic method. Supporting people like Dawkins, whether we agree with his every word or not, is the best strategy I can think of. He's striking at the foundation of religion and he's not being subtle about it either. Sledgehammer approaches are not subtle. Dynamite is not subtle. But we're talking about age-old, entrenched, global instutions with foundations fused with the bedrock of the planet. Violent means are needed to begin the work of getting rid of religion.

 

That's my $20. Two cents might have been enough. Sorry. Couldn't help myself.

[Grandpa Harley]

2cents Canadian are more orless 20 USD

[Guest eejay]

Education IS the answer, but how it can be applied without offending the persecuted x-tians I don't know. I do believe it is easier now to become an atheist or anti-x-tian than it was 20 years ago, because the internet makes sites like this possible for so many to reach. They can read the stories and see that they're not alone in their doubts. I don't know if the school systems will ever become unbiased because all the right people are in places of power. It would be the greatest thing that could ever happen to this country if even half became atheists. I don't know how likely that is in my lifetime, but I think we have an obligation of sorts to stand our ground and have it known that we do exist, and there are a lot more of us than they think. There are people who will always be followers of the majority whether they believe what is being said or not. If we really can actually call the bluff on x-tianity, a lot of people who would have been scared to, would probably fall onto our side.

[gradstu09]

You might be interested in the book Moral Politics by George Lakoff. It discusses how conservatives frame arguments and how christianity factors into that.

[Legion]

Changing minds can be a very dangerous business. And I think wisdom resides in knowing which battles to fight.

[Skankboy]

Stealing a line from Skankboy here to add to my point. "Is it more cruel to do an intervention on a drug addict if their addiction makes them appear happier than it is to leave them be?"

Steal away my friend. I believe this may be the first time someone's quoted me like this!

 

I'd like to point out that I am not against Theism in general, I dont' agree with the stance, but I can certainly understand it. That being said, I see the "neo-abrahamic" religions (Christianity and Islam) as one of the greatest plights of the modern world.

 

A combination of a belief in holding the "One Absolute Truth" and a built in persecution complex leaves no room for real comprimise in these belief systems.

 

It sad too, because I have met some very nice self-styled christians, but I cannot help but see them as enablers for the rest of the idiots that speak in their god's name. Simply by identifying themselves as "Christian" they artifically enhance the polls and surveys all to often used as a basis of policy in this country. Only a true separation of church and state might help aleviate this issue, and then only if religous proponents can abide by it (which I sincerely doubt they ever would, see my comment about persecution complexes above).

 

My 2 cents...

[DarthOkkata]

I don't think all theism qualifies for my rant. Just some of the more crazed ones, such as Islam, and Christianity in whatever form it takes.

 

I'm not of a mind all faith can, or should be, destroyed. It's pretty unlikely we'll ever extinguish Christianity forever. After all, there are people still worshiping Zeus, and Odin even today.

 

I've never been bothered by a Jew, Agnostic, or Buddhist. While they accept new believers, they don't go door to door with their beliefs trying to infect others like they're trying to start a zombie apocalypse.

 

FaiiitTThhh! FfffaaaiiitttTThhh!

 

It's the overly aggressive tactics, and militant like dogma that's too easily translated into violence by common folk. The Jews in this country seem to have no problem not taking the worst parts of their holy book to heart, or trying to turn them into laws in a secularist country and impose them on everyone else. They seem to have worked it out of their system over the years. Christianity hasn't reached that point, and may destroy the US before it gets there.

 

I think the problem lies in Rome, which is much more concerned with the political state of the world and their own power than it is with spreading truth and love.

 

There are issues with quite a few of the Mega Churches on US soil, who have broken ties to Rome, but seem to have even worse mindsets about non faithful.

 

There will always be crazy retards in any faith. It's just a matter of keeping them away from the driver's wheel. Christianity gives them their drivers license and seems to hold them up on a pedestal as their finest drivers. As if fundies are the Nascar drivers of Christianity.

 

If only escaping from them was as easy as turning right.

 

There are a lot of moderate Christians, and changing their minds gives the crazy fundies in control less power. It's important, because these are the people who won't do anything about a witch hunt but shake their heads and play along. Perhaps even going so far as to 'have a look' at an execution or two.

 

I support Dawkins, Hitchens, Hawkings, and other outspoken atheist as much as I can. I remember and support the words of those of the past as well. It was nice of them to give me the ammunition to fight back with.

 

Given opportunity, anyone would make a power grab. Even those of Jewish faith, Buddhist, and even Atheist I imagine. It would be silly not too. The only question is, how well would they put up with everyone else.

 

Just from what I've seen in the world today. They would do better than the Jesus fan club in this regard.

 

I do doubt that they would drive us into the third level of economic hell, and allow the government to use it to back up a war with no real explanation. As an Atheist, I'd be far more comfortable with that, but would probably still complain a bit.

 

I certainly would feel less threatened by Buddhist, or Jews, than I do about too many Christians in power.

 

If things get too bad, I may -really- end up moving to Canada. I've lived in Boston before. I can deal with the weather there.

 

While I'm sure they've got their share of fundies as well, they aren't driving the country on to the edge of imperial implosion and collapse.

 

If we keep going the way we are, we'll end up getting our whole country repossessed by China. Kind of like the sub prime loan market is doing to lower class America in recent times.

 

It's not really dogma or the church, but business and government using Christians and their faith to manipulate them. All while the Catholic church turns a blind eye, kind of like they did in Europe during the 1940's.

 

Wink! Wink! Nudge! Nudge! Say no more! Say no more!

 

I really do believe that left unchecked, Jesus and his army are a dangerous problem. It might already be too late to do anything to stop depression.

 

That will only make things worse, as people with crappy lives tend to gravitate towards Jesus for comfort.

 

In the end, Jesus Christ could be the end of the great idea America was.

 

It's not ideas about God we should fear, but intollerent dogma.

[par4dcourse]

The rub, as I see it, is that our strongest arguments, logic and science, are all too easily ignored by the "funny-mentals." They fully expect to die and awaken in the land of milk and honey and gold streets with jaysus smiling down at them. We, and I'm making generalizations, have no such beliefs, but there's no way to prove it. They'll be just as dead as us and never know what nutbags they were.

[chefranden]

Remember, as me olde grandpappy* Mark Twain usta say, "You can't talk somebody out of something he never got talked into in the first place."

 

The irrational bit of the human mind always trumps the rational bit.

 

I think that religion started dying out in Europe after the horrors of WI made God's absence pretty clear. Apparently our Civil War wasn't horrible enough to accomplish the same thing.

 

Anyway, as I examine my own deconversion honestly I have to admit that reason only played a supporting role and at first I attempted to use reason to revive faith. It is never or rarely as simple as explaining the affronts to reason to get a deconversion.

 

 

*not really just a figure of speech.

[DarthOkkata]

Changing minds can be a very dangerous business. And I think wisdom resides in knowing which battles to fight.

 

I agree.

 

It would be unwise not to fight this battle though. They have so much control over issues like the environment, lawmaking, and assorted other issues that directly effect me, and everyone else, personally, economically, and politically, that it is foolish to stand and do nothing about them. To say nothing of their negative effect on, personal freedom, medicine, education, population control, and drug control.

 

They aren't dealing with it very well at all, and it needs to be addressed. In fact, they seem to be barring, and preventing progress. I'd even go so far as to say they're reversing progress in some areas.

 

An important step to doing something about those problems, is getting them out of the way. At least enough of them to force what's left to negotiate, and bow away from using barbaric solutions to modern problems.

[Legion]

Well DarthOkkata I hope that you’ve brushed up on Sun Tzu’s Art of War.

 

Here is a link… http://suntzusaid.com/

 

And I hope you have special training in ideological power struggles.

 

As for me I have decided that if I die having obtained and given away as much understanding as possible then I will have few regrets. I have an enemy and it is my own confusion. I wish you the best in your endeavors and may you die with no regret.

[Guest Freepagan]

The story of the naked emperor has been playing out far too long. At some point in the near future we may have to take religion away by force. But in doing so, it will only aid in confirming xtians' beliefs concerning the "end times." They already believe that anti-christs will come to take their religion away from them. But yes, something has to give.

[Legion]

At some point in the near future we may have to take religion away by force.

I'd only like to point out that in the U.S. freedom of religion is protected by the Constitution. If this is to be accomplished here then I imagine that it can only be done so within a cultural context and within the arena of ideas.

[Antlerman]

Anyway, as I examine my own deconversion honestly I have to admit that reason only played a supporting role and at first I attempted to use reason to revive faith. It is never or rarely as simple as explaining the affronts to reason to get a deconversion.

There's a huge amount of understanding behind that.

[DarthOkkata]

I agree with Legion as well. Religious freedom isn't something we should take away. It was large part of the foundation of the US. It's not something we should get rid of if we truly wish to be a free society.

 

Then again, so was seperation of church and state. This is where it's becoming a problem, and the Republican Party is now the same thing as the Christian Party. They might as well replace the Elephant with a cross.

 

A civil war isn't the answer, but rather pointing out why their beliefs are stupid, and preventing them from legislating morals and bullshit across our legal system. Something we need to do if we wish to continue as a free society.

 

Metaphorically clubbing them over the head rather than actually using a physical club.

 

We need to educate, rely on physical evidence, and force them to prove their views with evidence if they want them taught on taxpayer dollars.

 

A lot of people can be converted if the stupidity of Christianity is simply pointed out in public. Not everyone no, there will always be the hard core believers with allergic reactions to thought.

 

The majority can be turned. Most people don't really have that much faith. Though, if asked, they would of course claim too. It's expected of them, just like going to church, and praying before a meal.

 

As I said, it's a frustrating problem, and not easily or quickly dealt with. It would be nice to be able to roll tanks through every church in the country. In the end, it would cause more problems than it would solve, and steel the belief in the fence sitters causing even more resistance. Thanks Revelations.

 

The only course of action possible is an extended and forceful ideological debate. We've got to force them to back up their claims with the proof they don't have, and drown them in the proof we do have. It's a long, hard, difficult road, and it may already be too late to do anything more than damage control in the end.

 

I've already got a copy of Art of War. A very useful book, fun to use against fundies as well. Almost as useful as the bible itself.

[Antlerman]

Then again, so was seperation of church and state. This is where it's becoming a problem, and the Republican Party is now the same thing as the Christian Party. They might as well replace the Elephant with a cross.

If I'm not mistaken the Republican party is moving beyond finding value in the Christian Right and is dumping them as a liability. Some other political pro can offer a reference to that. The point is that the main stream of society, both religious and secular are pretty much done with the nonsense of the Christian Right, that's been building up since the 80's and culminating in this incestuous relationship with the Bush Administration.

 

By all means voice disagreement, but take some comfort that it's not entirely a lost cause. This is a cyclical swing in politics and culture, and this major one being part of a 40 year cycle. It's coming back. But again, be frustrated and angry, but take some consolation in the natural trends of society. It's not entirely on your shoulders.

[DarthOkkata]

If I believed in god, I'd pray you were right.

 

Here's to hope, but I still think I should stand against stupidity where ever it builds walls against progress.

 

I'm a bit skeptical of it, as the science debate was ignored by even the Democrats, and the Republican campaign doesn't seem much improved. They still appear to be pandering to and using the Jesus lovers across the US from what I've seen.

 

I'll call it a work in progress, and hope there's less work than it seems.

[Kuroikaze]

If I'm not mistaken the Republican party is moving beyond finding value in the Christian Right and is dumping them as a liability. Some other political pro can offer a reference to that. The point is that the main stream of society, both religious and secular are pretty much done with the nonsense of the Christian Right, that's been building up since the 80's and culminating in this incestuous relationship with the Bush Administration.

 

I'd say you are right, if the otherwise the Republican presidential nominee would be Mike Huckabe, not John McCain, I'm sure McCain is far from perfect, but he doesn't strike me as a fundy either.

[DarthOkkata]

That's because the voters want the dishonest Christian they are in office. Just like Bush was. Fundies send out weird vibes the normal humans don't like.

 

They want the guy who will probably screw up a few of the small things, but generally keep the status quo.

 

Unfortunately, this last one was an overachiever, and the one before him was a filthy dirty liar, who wouldn't admit he let the fat girl smoke a cigar. My leaders embarrass me. I almost want to tell people I'm French, or worse...French Canadian.

 

Most people think they love Jesus, when what they really love is their comfortable stable lifestyle. They don't realize the two aren't really connected.

 

Willful ignorance.

 

It makes my head hurt.

[Antlerman]

If I'm not mistaken the Republican party is moving beyond finding value in the Christian Right and is dumping them as a liability. Some other political pro can offer a reference to that. The point is that the main stream of society, both religious and secular are pretty much done with the nonsense of the Christian Right, that's been building up since the 80's and culminating in this incestuous relationship with the Bush Administration.

 

I'd say you are right, if the otherwise the Republican presidential nominee would be Mike Huckabe, not John McCain, I'm sure McCain is far from perfect, but he doesn't strike me as a fundy either.

Here's one article I read awhile back that talks about that pendulum swing happening. http://www.salon.com/books/int/2008/02/26/amy_sullivan/

 

There's other's I read too, but the evangelicals are definitively starting to abandon their whole Christian Right political stuff now. They tossed out the old guard in the Southern Baptist organization recently in favor of a more faith-oriented institution, as opposed to the political stuff they started in the 80's. This administration here is just the culmination of the effort begun back then, but it's ending now.

[Amethyst]

If you ban Christianity, it will only go underground. You can ban the public practice of religion, but you cannot police people's thoughts. The liberal Christians would probably abandon it because it wouldn't be worth the risk of being seen practicing a banned religion. But the fundies would only get fundier because they would not be in the light of day for people to see what they are doing.

 

I do not see the end result of that being good. At least right now, we can tell what they are up to for the most part, because they use the media and their church services take place in public locations. If they were forced to go underground, it could lead to terrorism by fundamentalist extremists.

 

As much as I do not like fundamentalist Christianity, I think that banning it would only make things worse. It has to die the slow, painful death that it is currently dying. Only with time will it be erased like the popular religions before it.

[Legion]

As much as I do not like fundamentalist Christianity, I think that banning it would only make things worse. It has to die the slow, painful death that it is currently dying. Only with time will it be erased like the popular religions before it.

I agree Amethyst. There likely won't be a quick or easy fix in my estimation.

[Grandpa Harley]

I reserve the right to hand back muscular evangelism with as much 'restraint' as they hand out... OK, it's Nietzsche 101... The call me a sinner, I'll itemise their status with their God... I won't hunt them to do it, but if they come to my door, I don't see the point of wearing gloves, other than the weighted sap gloves...

[Guest Net Eng]

As much as I do not like fundamentalist Christianity, I think that banning it would only make things worse. It has to die the slow, painful death that it is currently dying. Only with time will it be erased like the popular religions before it.

 

...and my 2 cents (which is 2 cents U.S. or 2 cents Canadian)

 

You cannot ban/forbid the thoughts of another. Nor can you forcibly alter a persons belief. As Amethyst so eloquently said " [Christianity] has to die [a] slow, painful death...".

 

Education is the answer. But the process will be slow.