Questions About The Ancient Hebrew Peoples...

[Luck Mermaid]

I do not think this is a theological issue, but I am not sure where else to place it exactly.

 

I am reading several books right now, among them books about Mary Magdalen and an interesting book called The Bible Unearthed, which takes an archaeological, secular-based look at biblical records versus , well, reality.

 

And I am finding that I am really interested in the LIVES of ancient Judeans and Israelites - why they believed what they believed, how they lived life, how they were both different and similar in religious , political, cultural, etc... areas to their near eastern neighbors.

 

I am looking for interesting facts.

 

So if you think there is a book or a website with interesting things for me to look at, please let me know.

 

Thank you.

[Grandpa Harley]

The Bible Unearthed is one of the best easily available books on the subject for the non-professional (IME)

[Guest Net Eng]

So if you think there is a book or a website with interesting things for me to look at, please let me know.

 

I am currently reading Bloodline of the Holy Grail The Hidden Lineage of Jesus Revealed amazon.com. This is a well footnoted work and he backs himself up very well.

[Grandpa Harley]

Caveat on 'Sir' Laurence Gardener... he's well known in the circles I move in as a tad on the wild side... I'd really not overly turst his conclusions, although some of his bibliogaprhies are worth the price of his books...

 

I'd put him up there with Aleister Crowley, Zecharia Sitchin, and Karl Friedrich Hieronymus, Freiherr von Münchhausen...

[Guest Net Eng]

Caveat on 'Sir' Laurence Gardener... he's well known in the circles I move in as a tad on the wild side... I'd really not overly turst his conclusions, although some of his bibliogaprhies are worth the price of his books...

 

I'd put him up there with Aleister Crowley, Zecharia Sitchin, and Karl Friedrich Hieronymus, Freiherr von Münchhausen...

 

 

Thanks for the warning Gramps! I'll keep it in mind.

[mwc]

I'm going to have to echo GH on all this...

 

mwc

[elana]

Hi! I would try some books on the studies done on the Dead Sea Scrolls. For me, they have offered a fascinating insight into a particular section of the Jewish people during 'biblical' times. Right now I am

reading a book by Dr. Barbara Thiering , "Jesus, the Man". So far it has proven to be quite informative and offers some theories about the 'Jesus story' that seems more plausible than the so-called 'holy bible'.

 

 

And if anybody else here could give me an opinion or info about this book, author, or the subject of the Dead Sea Scrolls, I would greatly appreciate it.

 

Hope you find this helpful, Mermaid.

 

 

elana

[mwc]

Right now I am reading a book by Dr. Barbara Thiering , "Jesus, the Man". So far it has proven to be quite informative and offers some theories about the 'Jesus story' that seems more plausible than the so-called 'holy bible'.

I haven't read her but I know of her. I can't say I agree with her conclusions but I understand her methods and I don't necessarily disagree with them (I know that sounds confusing but that is to say I think she was basically on the right path but ended up with the wrong answers). Anyhow, I've been meaning to read her work but simply haven't gotten around to doing it yet to see if my initial impressions are correct or not.

 

And be careful reading on the DSS because too many people try to tie them into xians without any real cause (or the Essene sect...though this is probably a little more justifiable). They simply ignore all the research that has been done in the last 10 or so years at Qumran.

 

mwc

[Grandpa Harley]

Only difficulty I have with Thiering is her application of pesher to Greek texts... the whole point of pesher is that it only really works in Hebrew, and then in texts antedating late antiquity.

 

The other problem I have with pesher is that, effectively, it's making it up as you go along...

 

Take a look here

 

http://www.pesherofchrist.infinitesoulutions.com/

 

and

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pesher

 

and I think you'll see my level of discomfort with the whole idea... effectively, there is, a priori, the assumption that there is more to the texts than meets the eye. In some texts, there may well be, but in others... sometimes a cigar is just a cigar...

[Grandpa Harley]

As an addendum... if Revelations is anything but the drug addled fantasy of a man holed up in a cave, then I'm a Dutchman...

[mwc]

As an addendum... if Revelations is anything but the drug addled fantasy of a man holed up in a cave, then I'm a Dutchman...

You're a Dutchman...

 

The Revelation is clearly about the Jewish Revolt. The attack against the temple (the war in heaven). And the "revenge" the Jews would some day have against the "nations." The 7-headed lamb is the churches that get to rule along side god in this new world order.

 

I think it's all pretty self-explanatory really. But perhaps I am he who hath understanding and all that.

 

mwc

[elana]

Thank you Gramps and MWC! I have been somewhat skeptical as I have read Dr. Thiering's work, but usually am when reading works along these lines. And I agree that her application of pesher to both Hebrew & Greek is unwise. But I still find her explanations to the "jesus story" fits better than what was 'pounded' into my brain in Sunday School. (Of course, I'm sure most fairy tales would fit better. LOL!)

As far as Revelations is concerned, I am of the opinion it was written after the fact and was in reference to Roman occupation and their eventual taking down of Jerusalem in 76 a.d.

And good Godd/ess, if I had a $1 for every time I have heard Revelation is predicting our future and the "end times"! (Trip-round-the-world here I come!)

 

elana

[Grandpa Harley]

As an addendum... if Revelations is anything but the drug addled fantasy of a man holed up in a cave, then I'm a Dutchman...

You're a Dutchman...

 

The Revelation is clearly about the Jewish Revolt. The attack against the temple (the war in heaven). And the "revenge" the Jews would some day have against the "nations." The 7-headed lamb is the churches that get to rule along side god in this new world order.

 

I think it's all pretty self-explanatory really. But perhaps I am he who hath understanding and all that.

 

mwc

 

That's what I said... it's a revenge fantasy... but the whole issue of things with lots of head and rivers of blood and shit is just one funny mushie too many... and it's well post AD70... tbh the apologist interpretation doesn't really hold water... by the time of the writing of revelations, Judaism was a spent force... something mildly embarassing to be associated with....or am I missing the joke?

[Grandpa Harley]

Thank you Gramps and MWC! I have been somewhat skeptical as I have read Dr. Thiering's work, but usually am when reading works along these lines. And I agree that her application of pesher to both Hebrew & Greek is unwise. But I still find her explanations to the "jesus story" fits better than what was 'pounded' into my brain in Sunday School. (Of course, I'm sure most fairy tales would fit better. LOL!)

As far as Revelations is concerned, I am of the opinion it was written after the fact and was in reference to Roman occupation and their eventual taking down of Jerusalem in 76 a.d.

And good Godd/ess, if I had a $1 for every time I have heard Revelation is predicting our future and the "end times"! (Trip-round-the-world here I come!)

 

elana

 

And half competent writer can make up anything that makes more sense than the Gospels... in my archive of stuff, I have an essay the outlines how Jesus TOLD Judas what he had to to do... all in plain sight.

[elana]

Would this be the "Book of Judas" that I've heard so much about or one of the other 'banned' books?

 

elana

[Grandpa Harley]

No... I worked from the Canonical Gospels only.

 

Bloody long post warning

 

Reading the source material with reference to Judas, and his betrayal of Jesus, we have the following:- (all quotes from the 'New International Version', italics mine)

 

Matthew 26

 

The Plot Against Jesus

 

1When Jesus had finished saying all these things, he said to his disciples, 2"As you know, the Passover is two days away--and the Son of Man will be handed over to be crucified."

3Then the chief priests and the elders of the people assembled in the palace of the high priest, whose name was Caiaphas, 4and they plotted to arrest Jesus in some sly way and kill him. 5"But not during the Feast," they said, "or there may be a riot among the people."

 

Jesus Anointed at Bethany

 

6While Jesus was in Bethany in the home of a man known as Simon the Leper, 7a woman came to him with an alabaster jar of very expensive perfume, which she poured on his head as he was reclining at the table.

8When the disciples saw this, they were indignant. "Why this waste?" they asked. 9"This perfume could have been sold at a high price and the money given to the poor."

10Aware of this, Jesus said to them, "Why are you bothering this woman? She has done a beautiful thing to me. 11The poor you will always have with you, but you will not always have me. 12When she poured this perfume on my body, she did it to prepare me for burial. 13I tell you the truth, wherever this gospel is preached throughout the world, what she has done will also be told, in memory of her."

 

Judas Agrees to Betray Jesus

 

14Then one of the Twelve--the one called Judas Iscariot--went to the chief priests 15and asked, "What are you willing to give me if I hand him over to you?" So they counted out for him thirty silver coins. 16From then on Judas watched for an opportunity to hand him over.

 

The Lord's Supper

 

17On the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, the disciples came to Jesus and asked, "Where do you want us to make preparations for you to eat the Passover?"

18He replied, "Go into the city to a certain man and tell him, 'The Teacher says: My appointed time is near. I am going to celebrate the Passover with my disciples at your house.' " 19So the disciples did as Jesus had directed them and prepared the Passover.

20When evening came, Jesus was reclining at the table with the Twelve. 21And while they were eating, he said, "I tell you the truth, one of you will betray me."

22They were very sad and began to say to him one after the other, "Surely not I, Lord?"

23Jesus replied, "The one who has dipped his hand into the bowl with me will betray me. 24The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him. But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born."

25Then Judas, the one who would betray him, said, "Surely not I, Rabbi?"

Jesus answered, "Yes, it is you."[1]

26While they were eating, Jesus took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to his disciples, saying, "Take and eat; this is my body."

27Then he took the cup, gave thanks and offered it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you. 28This is my blood of the[2] covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. 29I tell you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it anew with you in my Father's kingdom."

30When they had sung a hymn, they went out to the Mount of Olives.

 

Jesus Predicts Peter's Denial

 

31Then Jesus told them, "This very night you will all fall away on account of me, for it is written:

" 'I will strike the shepherd,

and the sheep of the flock will be scattered.'[3] 32But after I have risen, I will go ahead of you into Galilee."

33Peter replied, "Even if all fall away on account of you, I never will."

34"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "this very night, before the rooster crows, you will disown me three times."

35But Peter declared, "Even if I have to die with you, I will never disown you." And all the other disciples said the same.

 

Gethsemane

 

36Then Jesus went with his disciples to a place called Gethsemane, and he said to them, "Sit here while I go over there and pray." 37He took Peter and the two sons of Zebedee along with him, and he began to be sorrowful and troubled. 38Then he said to them, "My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death. Stay here and keep watch with me."

39Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will."

40Then he returned to his disciples and found them sleeping. "Could you men not keep watch with me for one hour?" he asked Peter. 41"Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the body is weak."

42He went away a second time and prayed, "My Father, if it is not possible for this cup to be taken away unless I drink it, may your will be done."

43When he came back, he again found them sleeping, because their eyes were heavy. 44So he left them and went away once more and prayed the third time, saying the same thing.

45Then he returned to the disciples and said to them, "Are you still sleeping and resting? Look, the hour is near, and the Son of Man is betrayed into the hands of sinners. 46Rise, let us go! Here comes my betrayer!"

 

Jesus Arrested

 

47While he was still speaking, Judas, one of the Twelve, arrived. With him was a large crowd armed with swords and clubs, sent from the chief priests and the elders of the people. 48Now the betrayer had arranged a signal with them: "The one I kiss is the man; arrest him." 49Going at once to Jesus, Judas said, "Greetings, Rabbi!" and kissed him.

50Jesus replied, "Friend, do what you came for."[4]

51Then the men stepped forward, seized Jesus and arrested him. With that, one of Jesus' companions reached for his sword, drew it out and struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his ear.

52"Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword. 53Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels? 54But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen in this way?"

Mark 14

 

 

Jesus Anointed at Bethany

 

1Now the Passover and the Feast of Unleavened Bread were only two days away, and the chief priests and the teachers of the law were looking for some sly way to arrest Jesus and kill him. 2"But not during the Feast," they said, "or the people may riot."

3While he was in Bethany, reclining at the table in the home of a man known as Simon the Leper, a woman came with an alabaster jar of very expensive perfume, made of pure nard. She broke the jar and poured the perfume on his head.

4Some of those present were saying indignantly to one another, "Why this waste of perfume? 5It could have been sold for more than a year's wages[1] and the money given to the poor." And they rebuked her harshly.

6"Leave her alone," said Jesus. "Why are you bothering her? She has done a beautiful thing to me. 7The poor you will always have with you, and you can help them any time you want. But you will not always have me. 8She did what she could. She poured perfume on my body beforehand to prepare for my burial. 9I tell you the truth, wherever the gospel is preached throughout the world, what she has done will also be told, in memory of her."

10Then Judas Iscariot, one of the Twelve, went to the chief priests to betray Jesus to them. 11They were delighted to hear this and promised to give him money. So he watched for an opportunity to hand him over.

 

The Lord's Supper

 

12On the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, when it was customary to sacrifice the Passover lamb, Jesus' disciples asked him, "Where do you want us to go and make preparations for you to eat the Passover?"

13So he sent two of his disciples, telling them, "Go into the city, and a man carrying a jar of water will meet you. Follow him. 14Say to the owner of the house he enters, 'The Teacher asks: Where is my guest room, where I may eat the Passover with my disciples?' 15He will show you a large upper room, furnished and ready. Make preparations for us there."

16The disciples left, went into the city and found things just as Jesus had told them. So they prepared the Passover.

17When evening came, Jesus arrived with the Twelve. 18While they were reclining at the table eating, he said, "I tell you the truth, one of you will betray me--one who is eating with me."

19They were saddened, and one by one they said to him, "Surely not I?"

20"It is one of the Twelve," he replied, "one who dips bread into the bowl with me. 21The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him. But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born."

22While they were eating, Jesus took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to his disciples, saying, "Take it; this is my body."

23Then he took the cup, gave thanks and offered it to them, and they all drank from it.

24"This is my blood of the[2] covenant, which is poured out for many," he said to them. 25"I tell you the truth, I will not drink again of the fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it anew in the kingdom of God."

26When they had sung a hymn, they went out to the Mount of Olives.

 

Jesus Predicts Peter's Denial

 

27"You will all fall away," Jesus told them, "for it is written:

" 'I will strike the shepherd,

and the sheep will be scattered.'[3] 28But after I have risen, I will go ahead of you into Galilee."

29Peter declared, "Even if all fall away, I will not."

30"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "today--yes, tonight--before the rooster crows twice[4] you yourself will disown me three times."

31But Peter insisted emphatically, "Even if I have to die with you, I will never disown you." And all the others said the same.

 

Gethsemane

 

32They went to a place called Gethsemane, and Jesus said to his disciples, "Sit here while I pray." 33He took Peter, James and John along with him, and he began to be deeply distressed and troubled. 34"My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death," he said to them. "Stay here and keep watch."

35Going a little farther, he fell to the ground and prayed that if possible the hour might pass from him. 36"Abba,[5] Father," he said, "everything is possible for you. Take this cup from me. Yet not what I will, but what you will."

37Then he returned to his disciples and found them sleeping. "Simon," he said to Peter, "are you asleep? Could you not keep watch for one hour? 38Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the body is weak."

39Once more he went away and prayed the same thing. 40When he came back, he again found them sleeping, because their eyes were heavy. They did not know what to say to him.

41Returning the third time, he said to them, "Are you still sleeping and resting? Enough! The hour has come. Look, the Son of Man is betrayed into the hands of sinners. 42Rise! Let us go! Here comes my betrayer!"

 

Jesus Arrested

 

43Just as he was speaking, Judas, one of the Twelve, appeared. With him was a crowd armed with swords and clubs, sent from the chief priests, the teachers of the law, and the elders.

44Now the betrayer had arranged a signal with them: "The one I kiss is the man; arrest him and lead him away under guard." 45Going at once to Jesus, Judas said, "Rabbi!" and kissed him. 46The men seized Jesus and arrested him. 47Then one of those standing near drew his sword and struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his ear.

48"Am I leading a rebellion," said Jesus, "that you have come out with swords and clubs to capture me? 49Every day I was with you, teaching in the temple courts, and you did not arrest me. But the Scriptures must be fulfilled." 50Then everyone deserted him and fled.

51A young man, wearing nothing but a linen garment, was following Jesus. When they seized him, 52he fled naked, leaving his garment behind.

 

 

Luke 22

 

Judas Agrees to Betray Jesus

 

1Now the Feast of Unleavened Bread, called the Passover, was approaching, 2and the chief priests and the teachers of the law were looking for some way to get rid of Jesus, for they were afraid of the people. 3Then Satan entered Judas, called Iscariot, one of the Twelve. 4And Judas went to the chief priests and the officers of the temple guard and discussed with them how he might betray Jesus. 5They were delighted and agreed to give him money. 6He consented, and watched for an opportunity to hand Jesus over to them when no crowd was present.

 

The Last Supper

 

7Then came the day of Unleavened Bread on which the Passover lamb had to be sacrificed. 8Jesus sent Peter and John, saying, "Go and make preparations for us to eat the Passover."

9"Where do you want us to prepare for it?" they asked.

10He replied, "As you enter the city, a man carrying a jar of water will meet you. Follow him to the house that he enters, 11and say to the owner of the house, 'The Teacher asks: Where is the guest room, where I may eat the Passover with my disciples?' 12He will show you a large upper room, all furnished. Make preparations there."

13They left and found things just as Jesus had told them. So they prepared the Passover.

14When the hour came, Jesus and his apostles reclined at the table. 15And he said to them, "I have eagerly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer. 16For I tell you, I will not eat it again until it finds fulfillment in the kingdom of God."

17After taking the cup, he gave thanks and said, "Take this and divide it among you. 18For I tell you I will not drink again of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes."

19And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, "This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me."

20In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you. 21But the hand of him who is going to betray me is with mine on the table. 22The Son of Man will go as it has been decreed, but woe to that man who betrays him." 23They began to question among themselves which of them it might be who would do this.

24Also a dispute arose among them as to which of them was considered to be greatest. 25Jesus said to them, "The kings of the Gentiles lord it over them; and those who exercise authority over them call themselves Benefactors. 26But you are not to be like that. Instead, the greatest among you should be like the youngest, and the one who rules like the one who serves. 27For who is greater, the one who is at the table or the one who serves? Is it not the one who is at the table? But I am among you as one who serves. 28You are those who have stood by me in my trials. 29And I confer on you a kingdom, just as my Father conferred one on me, 30so that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom and sit on thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

31"Simon, Simon, Satan has asked to sift you[1] as wheat. 32But I have prayed for you, Simon, that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned back, strengthen your brothers."

33But he replied, "Lord, I am ready to go with you to prison and to death."

34Jesus answered, "I tell you, Peter, before the rooster crows today, you will deny three times that you know me."

35Then Jesus asked them, "When I sent you without purse, bag or sandals, did you lack anything?"

"Nothing," they answered.

36He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. 37It is written: 'And he was numbered with the transgressors'[2] ; and I tell you that this must be fulfilled in me. Yes, what is written about me is reaching its fulfilment."

38The disciples said, "See, Lord, here are two swords."

"That is enough," he replied.

 

Jesus Prays on the Mount of Olives

 

39Jesus went out as usual to the Mount of Olives, and his disciples followed him. 40On reaching the place, he said to them, "Pray that you will not fall into temptation." 41He withdrew about a stone's throw beyond them, knelt down and prayed, 42"Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done." 43An angel from heaven appeared to him and strengthened him. 44And being in anguish, he prayed more earnestly, and his sweat was like drops of blood falling to the ground.[3]

45When he rose from prayer and went back to the disciples, he found them asleep, exhausted from sorrow. 46"Why are you sleeping?" he asked them. "Get up and pray so that you will not fall into temptation."

 

Jesus Arrested

 

47While he was still speaking a crowd came up, and the man who was called Judas, one of the Twelve, was leading them. He approached Jesus to kiss him, 48but Jesus asked him, "Judas, are you betraying the Son of Man with a kiss?"

49When Jesus' followers saw what was going to happen, they said, "Lord, should we strike with our swords?" 50And one of them struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his right ear.

51But Jesus answered, "No more of this!" And he touched the man's ear and healed him.

52Then Jesus said to the chief priests, the officers of the temple guard, and the elders, who had come for him, "Am I leading a rebellion, that you have come with swords and clubs? 53Every day I was with you in the temple courts, and you did not lay a hand on me. But this is your hour--when darkness reigns."

 

John 13

18"I am not referring to all of you; I know those I have chosen. But this is to fulfil the scripture: 'He who shares my bread has lifted up his heel against me.'[2]

19"I am telling you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe that I am He. 20I tell you the truth, whoever accepts anyone I send accepts me; and whoever accepts me accepts the one who sent me."

21After he had said this, Jesus was troubled in spirit and testified, "I tell you the truth, one of you is going to betray me."

22His disciples stared at one another, at a loss to know which of them he meant. 23One of them, the disciple whom Jesus loved, was reclining next to him. 24Simon Peter motioned to this disciple and said, "Ask him which one he means."

25Leaning back against Jesus, he asked him, "Lord, who is it?"

26Jesus answered, "It is the one to whom I will give this piece of bread when I have dipped it in the dish." Then, dipping the piece of bread, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, son of Simon. 27As soon as Judas took the bread, Satan entered into him.

28"What you are about to do, do quickly," Jesus told him, but no one at the meal understood why Jesus said this to him. 29Since Judas had charge of the money, some thought Jesus was telling him to buy what was needed for the Feast, or to give something to the poor. 30[/i]As soon as Judas had taken the bread, he went out. And it was night.[/i]

Looking at the four gospels over all, it appears that Mark and Matthew have similarly well placed sources for their accounts of Jesus’ last hours of life. John relates a huge amount of detail of the preparatory work Jesus laid down in the final few hours left to him as a free man, but is then somewhat unforthcoming as to any reason Judas would betray Jesus. Luke seems the poorest in terms of direct knowledge, and makes greater play of reported miracles than actual content, and gives no motivation for Judas’ sin, beyond ‘Then Satan entered [him]’

 

Reading the Narratives as witness statements, it seems safe to imply that the event with the ointment was somehow involved in the cause of the betrayal. We have a contradiction between Matthew/Mark and John as to when the betrayal occurred, the former placing it after the remark ‘She did what she could. She poured perfume on my body beforehand to prepare for my burial.’ (Matt 26:12/Mark 14:8) and the latter placing it during the meal (John 13:26 et seq). John implies that Jesus told Judas to go and betray him by the signal of the bread, whereas Matthew and Mark mention the burial reference, which seems to be the indicator that the time is right to set up the ‘fulfilment of the scriptures’. Something also implied by the signal of the anointment is that it appear that a human external agency is working the plot behind the scenes. Who sent the 'woman' with the ointment? Rather like an arch, whose support method can be implied but not seen in the finished artefact, someone supplied the expensive ointment and sent the woman, but there is only the gap where this figure stood left in the narratives as they stand. A shadowy, rich and powerful figure who is in the gospels is Joseph of Arimathea. He had wealth and power enough to influence the place of the crucifixion and to gain Jesus' body after the event, so it is not a stretch to say he may have been the éminence grise of the whole game, perhaps to try and foment a real uprising as the apparent 'best fit' messiah was being hung. If this was the case, he failed.

 

Moving back to the canon, taking Mark as a whole, there seems to be the remnants of a heavy, ‘initiatory’ element to the cult of Jesus. This is borne out by the last lines of Mark (Mark 14: 51-52), and supported by the reported content of the ‘Secret Mark’, which has been discussed elsewhere on the [message board I wrote this for]. This initiatory form of Christianity having been partially censored from Mark at some later time, but remains intact in certain other, apocryphal gospels. This would indicate that there was an inner circle of disciples, who plausibly would be involved in making the events fulfil the scriptures. Therefore it is not too great a leap of reason to imply that the Judas (as an Iscarii) would have received the meaning of the remark as reported in Mark and Matthew as a command. The puzzling element in John then makes sense when taken as a sign to make sure the arrangements are complete.

 

Thus, based on this hypothesis, which only uses the canon reports of the events, Judas really had no choice, unless he wanted to fail in his mission of fulfilling the scriptures and bring about the end time.

[mwc]

That's what I said... it's a revenge fantasy... but the whole issue of things with lots of head and rivers of blood and shit is just one funny mushie too many... and it's well post AD70... tbh the apologist interpretation doesn't really hold water... by the time of the writing of revelations, Judaism was a spent force... something mildly embarassing to be associated with....or am I missing the joke?

I've come to look at it as security through obscurity. I may be wrong but let's say you're the Romans in this case. You pick up this crazy bit of writing. Are you going to sit down and "decipher" it or do the standard bit of torture and move along? So as long as your initiates can stick to the cover story you're good to go. No one needs to know your "secret" plans for said evil empire. Plus it makes you a prophet, like old Daniel, if you manage to pull this all off. Just like Daniel and Antiochus IV it's a good way to hide the reality if your book falls into the "wrong" hands and it's a good way to validate your theology if your little "prophecies" manage to actually come to be.

 

mwc

[Grandpa Harley]

But it CAN'T be about a Jewish revolt... Christians planning world domination... well, that's a case of "Same thing we do every night, Pinky..." since they're still doing it...

[mwc]

But it CAN'T be about a Jewish revolt... Christians planning world domination... well, that's a case of "Same thing we do every night, Pinky..." since they're still doing it...

Sure it can.

 

I'm saying it's about the first Jewish Revolt at its core. That's the story that "John" used to create his story. But by doing so it's a story of a "revolt." The xians need a new Jerusalem, why? The xians need to control the nations of the world, why? The end of the story fits perfectly with the Jews getting back Jerusalem, bigger and better than before, and having the nations of the world needing them (being the new Rome as it were). It's Jewish payback time. Being caught with a text that says "The Romans will get theirs" and has the signs for when you're supposed to take up arms to slaughter them at a time when relations between your peoples aren't exactly the best may not bode well for you. I think that the only reason this got written is because someone thought that they could figure out a way to rally enough people together to actually pull off an armed uprising in their lifetime and retake Judea. Just like many predictions/promises/fantasies it didn't actually come to fruition.

 

mwc

[Grandpa Harley]

It's a view, I suppose... But by the time it's written, it's a Chrisitan revolt, not a Jewish one, no matter which swathe of land you're trying to retake (pretty much like the Chrisitan Zionist of the US is trying to retake Jerusalem now... ) Hence my takinbg to task over it being Jewish... the Christians claim to have supplanted the Jews as the 'Chosen People' this it not Jewish... If there is one view to take from Rev about the Jews, it is that they are a dead race and we should let them pass, since the bright, shiny, psychotic, followers of Jesus are here to kill every mother fucker in the room...

 

Your view is, to say the least, novel, but at odds with pretty much every other scholarly view, both apologetic and critical I can find. Is this a personal eisegesis, or do you have something that can be referenced in terms of the 90-95AD authorship of Rev?

[mwc]

Your view is, to say the least, novel, but at odds with pretty much every other scholarly view, both apologetic and critical I can find. Is this a personal eisegesis, or do you have something that can be referenced in terms of the 90-95AD authorship of Rev?

It's my personal view of course (and far from complete since I don't want to get into Revelation...maybe that's why it doesn't make sense here). I find rehashing someone else's views gets tiresome after awhile. As you've pointed out, it takes scholar's a good 30 years to actually think something new (alright, I'm paraphrasing). I could be long dead waiting for them to come around to my "right" way of thinking.

 

I can't wait until I actually finish putting together my thoughts on G.Mark...you'll have a field day tearing that apart.

 

mwc

[Grandpa Harley]

any comments on my 'Judas not having a choice'? It usually kills the thread or is ignored... and I've never really understood why..

[The-Captain]

any comments on my 'Judas not having a choice'? It usually kills the thread or is ignored... and I've never really understood why..

 

It makes sense.

 

As the gospels present it the entire Judas thing makes little sense, given the statements I don't see how he could have carried this out on his own with none of the others being the wiser.

[mwc]

any comments on my 'Judas not having a choice'? It usually kills the thread or is ignored... and I've never really understood why..

I actually do have an opinion on this but would require me to explain my entire view on G.Mark (it's kind of a synoptic problem/Q thing) to properly present it (this is one reason I've made such a poor showing in these types of discussions). As a result it's hard to step back and talk using the old mindset.

 

Based only on what you've presented I tend to agree with you. I would make exception with Joseph of Arimathea since I can't see the connection there.

 

mwc

[Grandpa Harley]

The 'certain man' of the Passover feast... someone organises that no-one can get overly close to the crucifixion, someone pays for a tomb, and Joseph is given the body... Joseph is a trader, and rich and, that rare bird, someone who crops up in ALL the Gospels even the awful Luke and the impentrable John... to orchestrate parts of the deal you're looking at money to oil the wheels, otherwise Jesus would have been hanging there till his bones fell or they wanted the cross, when the took the body down and left itint he gutter to rot... someone was paying people... and Pilate's placement in Judea was pretty much on the fact he liked money more than Rome...it was far from being a 'plum' job... Joseph fits the bill insofar as he had the money to do the job, the face to stick his neck out at odd times (asking for the body of a convicted terrorist? that too nerve and money...) although all we know of Armithea was that it was a 'city of Judea' and there is much controversy as to which city it wa (bear in mind 'Nazereth' at the time was a collection of Rock tombs and a farm)... Joseph fits the puppet master role, since someone was organising stuff to happen 'on time'... the message of the woman with the expensive ointment had to come from somewhere, and he whole 'prophecy' thing had to be engineered... that would take brains and cash. Jesus seems blessed with no money, some wit, and the 'right' blood line. The rest of his followers seem to be fence post dumb... but Judas, a political assassin and kidnapper, sort of the Mossad of his day, had to be resourceful, tough, bright and determined...thus not only did he not have a choice, he was probably the only one in on the game...

 

Hell, I don't say any of it is true, just that if fits the known facts, uses nothing but the canonical , and requires no divine intervention...

 

TBH G. Mark is pretty straight forward: a Hellenised version of a narrative. It conforms so closely to the format of a Sophpclean play that it can't have been Aramaic in origin, since the Sopochlean model of theatre was only known among the Hellenic Judaic Elite (Herod would recognise it, Jesus would not. If Joseph of Arimathea was that comfy rubbing shoulders with Pilate, then he'd have known the style too...)