Christianity Has Four Gods

[Crazycatlady]

I didn't come up with this myself -- I saw it on a different board, but I thought it was interesting. We all know that when it comes to the number of gods, christianity is the only one in which 3=1. So the argument that christians have three gods is fairly well-established. But could Satan truly have as much power as christians give him, if he were not also a god? (in the traditional sense, accepted by most polytheist religions, that is). I personally find it rather distrubing that christian would create a god of evil -- especially since the other three don't seem to be that benevolent either. Thoughts, anyone?

[woodsmoke]

Honestly, I think the argument could be made Satan is the most powerful of the Christian deities. After all, according to their own mythology he alone is the equal of the complete Christian godhead.

[Auracle]

I didn't come up with this myself -- I saw it on a different board, but I thought it was interesting. We all know that when it comes to the number of gods, christianity is the only one in which 3=1. So the argument that christians have three gods is fairly well-established. But could Satan truly have as much power as christians give him, if he were not also a god? (in the traditional sense, accepted by most polytheist religions, that is). I personally find it rather distrubing that christian would create a god of evil -- especially since the other three don't seem to be that benevolent either. Thoughts, anyone?

 

I think that if you think about it, Satan really could/should be considered a god. Or at least pretty damn god-like. Really, he's only slightly less powerful than The Big Cheese Himself.

 

Consider:

 

1) He's so powerful that God apparently can't just snap His Holy Fingers and get rid of him; he has to wage an apocalyptic war (and not without help from all the hosts of angels and human slaves (er, Christians) at that!)

2) He's so wily and cunning that we puny mortals can't even tell the difference between God and Satan (I don't have any quotes handy but I'm sure there's something specifically in the Buy-Bull about how Satan can appear holy or disguise himself as something good)

3) He apparently has the power to read thoughts and desires - else how would he know precisely how to tempt us?

4) He apparently has the power to place thoughts in our head to tempt us

5) He apparently can manipulate physical evidence to make us think things like the earth is a lot older than it really is (unless God did it..I think I may have heard that both ways...God would have done it to "test" us, of course..)

6) He apparently knows enough of the future to plant other cults (er, religions) similar to Christianity BEFORE Christianity appeared, in order to confuse mankind..

7) I'm sure there's more, but that should be a good start

 

Gotta make you wonder what the fuck God was thinking giving Satan that much power in the first place...considering of course he knew how much of a Pain in the Holy Royal Ass Satan would turn out to be....

[Skankboy]

I wouldn't call Satan a god per se, but anyone that says he isn't working FOR god instead of AGAINST god just aint reading their bible with a critical eye.

[MathGeek]

I've always believed that Satan was less than God. Since I grew up Catholic, I was indoctrinated to believe that Mary was just less than Jesus and God in the Catholic Pantheon. So, by this bullshit logic, wouldn't you assume that Mary and Jesus could kick the living shit out of Satan hands down? Furthermore, isn't it malevolent for a being like God to allow a punk-fuck like Satan loose to tempt and destroy the ones he created to love and revere him? There is something extremely messed up in that scenario.

[white_raven23]

How about 5 gods?

 

The personality exhibited by "god" in the OT is so different from the personality in NT that one could argue they are 2 seperate deities.

[alpha centauri]

I wouldn't call Satan a god per se, but anyone that says he isn't working FOR god instead of AGAINST god just aint reading their bible with a critical eye.

 

EXACTLY!

 

Christians like to attribute all the bad things, all the problems — to satan.

 

Then they point out how powerless satan is, and how omnipotent god is.

 

 

 

Well, for satan to have the ability to do absolutely ANYTHING, god has to allow it or to empower him.

 

This biblical god would be ultimately responsible for all the evil in the universe. He could have to put a stop to it, but he "loves us so much he wants us to have freewill."

 

What bullshit!

 

If you have children who are suffering — possibly even dying— if you love them you'd do anything in your power to stop the diseases, starvation, pain and death.

 

You wouldn't say "oh well. These kids were disobedient. They deserve to suffer and die. And then for good measure, let's throw them in a fiery lake to burn in agony forever and ever and ever without end."

 

If there is a god who is like that, then he is EVIL. And satan is merely doing his will.

[Robbobrob]

How about 5 gods?

 

The personality exhibited by "god" in the OT is so different from the personality in NT that one could argue they are 2 seperate deities.

I don't know, the genocidal zeal of the OT god carries over to a universal degree in the Book of Revelations. He had what, a 33 year soft spot when he was stuck in human form....the rest of the time he seems fairly still hard-assed (plus he was still willing to have his son die a horrible death to boot).

[alpha centauri]

How about 5 gods?

 

The personality exhibited by "god" in the OT is so different from the personality in NT that one could argue they are 2 seperate deities.

 

But white raven, remember the verses about the god of the bible being the same "yesterday, today and forver."

 

He may not have exhibited as many "flexes of muscle" in the New Testament (via plagues, the great flood, etc.) but he still shows his dark side in a formidable way. One need look no further than the book of Revelation and to the doctrine Jesus preached of an eternal hell.

[alpha centauri]

Rob, you beat me to the punch, but we were both thinking the same thing!

 

Too often people see the god of the New Testament as being more loving and forgiving than the Old Testament god.

 

Nope, he's still the same ol' tyrant. He just has better "PR" in the New Testament.

[woodsmoke]

I wouldn't call Satan a god per se, but anyone that says he isn't working FOR god instead of AGAINST god just aint reading their bible with a critical eye.

 

EXACTLY!

 

Christians like to attribute all the bad things, all the problems — to satan.

 

Then they point out how powerless satan is, and how omnipotent god is.

 

I think Skankboy was referring to the fact the Adversary, as depicted in the original Jewish scriptures, is actually God's servant, and all of his "bad guy" efforts are in truth being done at the behest of YHVH.

 

That the Adversary became the "evil" half of Christianity's theological dualism is yet one more way in which Paul's cult misunderstood the Jewish mythology upon which it was built.

[white_raven23]

How about 5 gods?

 

The personality exhibited by "god" in the OT is so different from the personality in NT that one could argue they are 2 seperate deities.

 

But white raven, remember the verses about the god of the bible being the same "yesterday, today and forver."

 

He may not have exhibited as many "flexes of muscle" in the New Testament (via plagues, the great flood, etc.) but he still shows his dark side in a formidable way. One need look no further than the book of Revelation and to the doctrine Jesus preached of an eternal hell.

 

Works for me.

 

Four gods is still polytheism...just like three

[BigVaden]

Eh... I'm not so sure that the argument of three gods is accurate. Speaking as a person raised as Southern Baptist, they distinctly teach that god (singular) is in three unique persons, but distinctly that there is only one god. This is why we refer to the three forms as "God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost". So as far as the idea of there being 4 gods in Christianity... eh, not so sure about that- at least for baptists anyway.

 

As for satan being considered a "god", yes by all measures of his abilities he pretty much is, but in effort to make a clear discinction between their god being good and all-powerfull and satan being pure evil they wouldn't want to call satan a god - if for no other reason than to clearly distinguish between the two.

[BigVaden]

Sorry to post twice, can't edit yet.

 

I was looking into this a bit more, and another reason it seems that Christians don't refer to satan as a god is simply because a god is generally seen as the (or a, depending on the religion) creator rather than just an all-powerfull being. That being the case, satan is a powerfull entity that was cast out of heaven by the creator. For lack of a better phrase, god pulled rank and gave ole' Beelzebub the holy boot in the ass. If god has (or had, anyway) authority over satan, I can see why people in general don't consider satan as a god.

 

Just a thought

[Piprus]

I didn't come up with this myself -- I saw it on a different board, but I thought it was interesting. We all know that when it comes to the number of gods, christianity is the only one in which 3=1. So the argument that christians have three gods is fairly well-established. But could Satan truly have as much power as christians give him, if he were not also a god? (in the traditional sense, accepted by most polytheist religions, that is). I personally find it rather distrubing that christian would create a god of evil -- especially since the other three don't seem to be that benevolent either. Thoughts, anyone?

With due deference to the very valid thoughts of the previous posters...

 

Very good thinking, crazycatlady...very good thinking, indeed.

 

I tend to go with the stream that all of this mythological thinking, and where it fits in to the present christian meme, relates in the end to the Zoroastrian view...Polytheistic, ultimate gods of both good and evil vying for ultimate domination, culminating in the Parousia, wherein good ultimately prevails and a new world is created. An ancient tale, worthy of consideration depending on your point of view.

[Grandpa Harley]

How about 5 gods?

 

The personality exhibited by "god" in the OT is so different from the personality in NT that one could argue they are 2 seperate deities.

 

You Marcionite!

[Vomit Comet]

It often seems that their satan is more powerful than their god. Because many times they will claim that they can't "break through", or that god isn't able to "move" or they can't seem to overcome whatever evil they are praying against. In my opinion, if satan is able to block god from answering a prayer, then satan would be more powerful in christian dogma. I really don't get it. It probably evolved though over the years as they noticed that god didn't seem to change much. I don't think it was intentional. I think charismatic/pentecostal/word of faith type denoms diefy satan the most, as they will often be found conversing with him directly mid prayer, "I rebuke you satan", "I bind you satan"..etc.

 

I always took it to mean that the people were doing something wrong, and that satan still had 'em to rights. But if only the people would get their shit together, then satan would get his ass kicked. Basically, a test of the people. Everyone concerned had to have their shit together so tight, otherwise satan would be allowed to keep fucking with them.

 

I was taught that God was omnipotent whereas satan was not, and therefore God was infinitely more powerful than satan. I was also taught there were limits to his capabilities: sure, he could fuck with you and get inside your head, but he couldn't do everything at once or be everywhere at once, so a lot of his dirty work was done by demon underlings. Rarely would you warrant a visit from the big kahuna himself. Maybe if you were the pope or a big-time famous evangelist something. It'd be like calling the tech support line at Microsoft and them having Bill Gates himself talk to you. Not very likely, unless you're Steve Jobs. I guess satan was devoting most of his energy to the big final war, or to manipulating the geopolitical scene, or pretending to be Allah for the benefit of Osama Bin Laden.

 

As for why we all had to go through that big ass war, rather than God just squishing satan like an insect...

 

...I guess it was the same reason why we had to go through that whole rigamorale with Jesus dying on the cross and then us having to tell everyone about it, rather than God just snapping his fingers and making everything cool again.

[Jincks013]

Why would this mythological 'god' want to defeat the equally mythical satan?

If god defeated satan then his religion has no purpose. There is no great battle between the two, any battle must have a victor and if either side wins the entire purpose of both sides is negated.

Logically if this psudoperson jesus died on the cross to erase orginal sin what is the point to being 'saved and reborn'? There isn't one. Orginal sin ceased to exist 2009 years ago then.

There are so many logical holes in this whole god/ bad god theology it is suprising anyone accepts the existance of either superpower.

[Legion]

I don’t understand those who say that the three as one concept of the Christian trinity is completely beyond reasonableness. After all, we have examples in various countries of people who have but one government operating in three modes: legislative, judicial, and executive.

[Deva]

I don’t understand those who say that the three as one concept of the Christian trinity is completely beyond reasonableness. After all, we have examples in various countries of people who have but one government operating in three modes: legislative, judicial, and executive.

 

The way I understand the explanation of the trinity is that each person of the trinity (father, son, HS) is also completely god. Its not parts, aspects or facets of god. So in your example of comparing the modes of government it would be like saying the legislative branch, for example, is also the entire government.

 

Then in Chrisitanity we have the additional problem that Jesus was fully human and at the same time fully divine. It is difficult to understand both the trinity and the incarnation and that is why it was disputed for centuries.

[MathGeek]

If you really want to think about the bullshit deeply, every person on Earth is a trinity.

 

Every person is equal parts me, myself and I and each part is fully me, fully myself and fully I.

 

Therefore, if you have the magical powers that are associated with a deity like babblegod, then you would be just another pedantic, needle-dicked dictator that needs to be shot in the head.

 

Any questions?

[Legion]

Deva I was under the impression that Hindus had a trinity also: Brahma, Shiva, and Vishnu. I also know of a triad in biology from those who seek to fabricate organisms from scratch: metabolism, autocatalysation, and membranes. I know of a triad in the art of seduction: ideal self, sexual self, and social self.

 

I have seen many trinities and triads in various contexts, so I can't help but think that maybe they are pointing to some salient aspect of life.

[Deva]

Deva I was under the impression that Hindus had a trinity also: Brahma, Shiva, and Vishnu. I also know of a triad in biology from those who seek to fabricate organisms from scratch: metabolism, autocatalysation, and membranes. I know of a triad in the art of seduction: ideal self, sexual self, and social self.

 

I have seen many trinities and triads in various contexts, so I can't help but think that maybe they are pointing to some salient aspect of life.

 

 

Yes there is a sort of trinity in Hinduism - creator, preserver and destroyer, but I think the Christian view is different. There is a non-dualistic understanding in Hinduism that there is only one - the Self (other different names) and the many millions of Gods represent aspects of the one. More like your example of the government.

[Mike D]

I don’t understand those who say that the three as one concept of the Christian trinity is completely beyond reasonableness. After all, we have examples in various countries of people who have but one government operating in three modes: legislative, judicial, and executive.

LR in your example.....these are three branches that make up one government. The concept could also be carried over to an actual tree (which is one entity) with branches. But here's where the problem comes in: the branches themselves are individual. In other words Branch A and Branch B (or judicial and executive) are unique, distinct branches, they are not, and cannot be, the same branch at the same time. And that's where the absurdness of the holy trinity comes in. We're told that Jesus is god's son, but he's also god at the same time, which makes him his own father. I am sorry but no matter how much you bend logic, a "person" can't be it's own father and it's own son at the same time, just as two individual branches of a tree (or a government) can't be the same branches at the same time. I don't see how anything about the trinity is reasonable.... it's a completely ridiculous concept that someone thought up to resolve more contradictions in the Bible, since the polytheism of the NT is not compatiable with the monotheism of the OT. No problem just make up some nonsensical illogical concept and call it a trinity - done. Maybe a thousand years from now, god will have a daughter, Baby Jesusette, who will also be Jesus and God at the same time, and you'll have a new concept to wrap your brain around: the Holy Quad God Squad ™

[MathGeek]

I don’t understand those who say that the three as one concept of the Christian trinity is completely beyond reasonableness. After all, we have examples in various countries of people who have but one government operating in three modes: legislative, judicial, and executive.

LR in your example.....these are three branches that make up one government. The concept could also be carried over to an actual tree (which is one entity) with branches. But here's where the problem comes in: the branches themselves are individual. In other words Branch A and Branch B (or judicial and executive) are unique, distinct branches, they are not, and cannot be, the same branch at the same time. And that's where the absurdness of the holy trinity comes in. We're told that Jesus is god's son, but he's also god at the same time, which makes him his own father. I am sorry but no matter how much you bend logic, a "person" can't be it's own father and it's own son at the same time, just as two individual branches of a tree (or a government) can't be the same branches at the same time. I don't see how anything about the trinity is reasonable.... it's a completely ridiculous concept that someone thought up to resolve more contradictions in the Bible, since the polytheism of the NT is not compatiable with the monotheism of the OT. No problem just make up some nonsensical illogical concept and call it a trinity - done. Maybe a thousand years from now, god will have a daughter, Baby Jesusette, who will also be Jesus and God at the same time, and you'll have a new concept to wrap your brain around: the Holy Quad God Squad

 

Great piece, Mike. But it appears to me from other sources I've read that 'Elohim' (Genesis 1) means "Gods". "Let us make man in our image". If you assert that the trinitarian philosophy is polytheism, then if the "God" of the OT is also polytheistic, then the trinitarian philosophy could be valid to some point. Where the sticking points come in: who were these other gods, what characteristics did these gods have, were these gods individual gods of specific parts of nature and the universe, or what is a simple mistranslation throughout time?

 

The trinity is a bogus concept without a doubt, but I can see where it may likely stem from and why some Christians made it up.