End Times Prophecy

[Guest maryr_32]

Hi all,

 

 

I'm new here, and this is my very first post. I am so glad to have found this site. Coming out of all the brainwashing, guilt, etc....is SO difficult. It's good to get some support. I'm not sure if this is the right place for this post. Feel free to move it if it fits better somewhere else.

 

Ok, here's my question. I was raised with the 'fear of god' in a Christian household...fear being the key word. I grew up and became a born again fundamental zealot for a few (far too long....) years. I deconverted, and for about the past 3 years I've been trying to get my head on straight and to live in reality. But sometimes I have doubts that maybe the Christians are right...I KNOW it's the brainwashing, but I'm sure you guys know how I feel. The guilt, etc... ANYWAY = last night I happened to have on the Glenn Beck show on cable, and he had a Biblical prophecy guy discussing the end times prophecies. I need some help for my own peace of mind in debunking things that seem actually to be pretty plausible. Granted, I am smarter than this...but again, the brainwashing is getting the best of me. How do you explain away some of the things like the cashless society, the mark of beast technology, the one world religion, the whole "the scoffers will say that Jesus isn't coming back...." (which is exactly what we are saying), one world government, the temple rebuilding by Jews, Israel coming back after 2000 years....... I'm sure many of you know these prophecies. Somebody help me figure out the logical, rational, natural reason these things are actually in line with what the Bible predicted!!

 

Personally, I think much of it has to do with interpretation, much like Nostradamus - but I was curious as to what others think!!

[Brother Jeff]

Hi all,

 

 

I'm new here, and this is my very first post. I am so glad to have found this site. Coming out of all the brainwashing, guilt, etc....is SO difficult. It's good to get some support. I'm not sure if this is the right place for this post. Feel free to move it if it fits better somewhere else.

 

Ok, here's my question. I was raised with the 'fear of god' in a Christian household...fear being the key word. I grew up and became a born again fundamental zealot for a few (far too long....) years. I deconverted, and for about the past 3 years I've been trying to get my head on straight and to live in reality. But sometimes I have doubts that maybe the Christians are right...I KNOW it's the brainwashing, but I'm sure you guys know how I feel. The guilt, etc... ANYWAY = last night I happened to have on the Glenn Beck show on cable, and he had a Biblical prophecy guy discussing the end times prophecies. I need some help for my own peace of mind in debunking things that seem actually to be pretty plausible. Granted, I am smarter than this...but again, the brainwashing is getting the best of me. How do you explain away some of the things like the cashless society, the mark of beast technology, the one world religion, the whole "the scoffers will say that Jesus isn't coming back...." (which is exactly what we are saying), one world government, the temple rebuilding by Jews, Israel coming back after 2000 years....... I'm sure many of you know these prophecies. Somebody help me figure out the logical, rational, natural reason these things are actually in line with what the Bible predicted!!

 

Personally, I think much of it has to do with interpretation, much like Nostradamus - but I was curious as to what others think!!

Hi maryr_32! Welcome to the forums!

 

I have been exactly where you are, and I know how you feel. I don't worry about this stuff anymore, but it takes time to get there. Having a cashless society (which we don't and won't have for a long time) wouldn't somehow magically make Christianity true. The Mark of the Beast...is it a computer chip in your hand or a computer in Europe? Opinions vary. A one world religion or government? Please. That's Star Trek, not reality. As a species we haven't grown the fuck up yet and decided to stop shooting each other over our differences. We sure as hell aren't mature enough yet to hope for a one world government or religion. That's just fear-based religious bullshit. The Book of 2 Peter wasn't written by Peter. It was written by someone pretending to be him in the 2nd Century as a response to scoffers then who were beginning to point out the fact that Jesus had not returned as promised even back then. See these links:

 

http://www.geocities.com/paulntobin/authorpeter.html

 

http://secweb.infidels.org/?kiosk=articles&id=86

 

As far as prophecy goes, see this link on my glorious site. It has links to several great articles on biblical prophecy:

 

http://christianityisbullshit.com/bible-prophecy/

 

Hope that helps! Glory!

[Grandpa Harley]

TBH, I've not seen a single 'prediction' that anyone 'got' until after it had happened, and even then the 'prophecy' only matches by a combination of mental Rorschachery, abuse of Aramaic, Greek and Latin, and if you half close your eyes and put your head on one side...

[hereticzero]

Xtianity uses hindsight to fulfill its prophecies. If I say to you that someday you will die, is that a prophecy since we all die? The OT and NT are books whose authorship are unknown. Xtian 'tradition' claims they were written by apostles or close disciples of the apostles. Historical evidence does not support the xtian claims. I haven't seen any evidence to support the xtian prophecies for anything. The babble is not true in content, so whatever it claims is also not true. What you believe depends on how much you believe in the babble as an undisputed historical record, which it is not.

[R. S. Martin]

How do you explain away some of the things like the cashless society, the mark of beast technology, the one world religion, the whole "the scoffers will say that Jesus isn't coming back...." (which is exactly what we are saying), one world government, the temple rebuilding by Jews, Israel coming back after 2000 years....... I'm sure many of you know these prophecies. Somebody help me figure out the logical, rational, natural reason these things are actually in line with what the Bible predicted!!

 

Personally, I think much of it has to do with interpretation, much like Nostradamus - but I was curious as to what others think!!

 

Hi maryr, welcome! I am not much good at prophecy but I have noticed something. No matter what period of history I look at, the Christians who want Jesus to return in their lifetime always figure out how to interpret prophecy so that he will return in their lifetime (unless they die unepectedly of accident or illness, etc.). They've been doing this for thousands of years. They have been especially intense on it the past century and a half.

 

The most prominent feature of all these prophecies--to me--is that they never happen. The cashless society was "just around the corner" back when I was growing up in the late 1960s. We've had major, major advances in technology since then. And we're still nowhere near the cashless society. There's just nothing quite like the real coin in your hand and knowing you've actually got hard cash to your name.

 

Cards work for many purposes but when push comes to shove and you're stranded, robbed, and desolate, and someone pushes a ten dollar bill into your hand you can get yourself food, transportation--you can exchange that piece of paper for practically any $10-necessity life can throw at you. The same cannot be said of any card that has yet been invented that I know of (maybe I'm just uneducated). For all the cards I know of, a machine of some sort is required just to make it work. Again, I may simply lack knowledge. But it seems to stand to reason that any other means of payment must somehow be scanned into The System, whereas cash is recognizable to the naked eye, and can be counted, and does not.

 

Another thing about prophecy and human nature or christian nature is that they have a way of interpreting scripture to make it fit whatever happens to be happening right now. That way they can ensure that Jesus really will come back during their lifetime.

 

Funny that he never does.

 

Also, some critics think--and there is reason for this thinking--that certain people with the political power and money are making/have made prophecy come true. This is especially relevant with regards to Israel. The argument shows that these people will ride rough-shod over all other people, disregarding ethical concerns for all other parties impacted, in the interests of making their prophecy come true. It's as though they think they can bring Jesus back if they make the prophecies come true. At least, that is the impression I get.

 

I'm not sure where I got all my information. You could try reading Barbara Rossing's Rapture Exposed. I think it's written by a Christian who is very anti-rapture. It might be news for some people here but rapture theology is not standard Christian theology--I'm not sure, is it just a large group of evangelicals who buy into it? Rapture had to be explained to me and I'm still not sure that I understand it. I think Rossing is a Lutheran. Maybe that fact is consoling, too--just to know that there are major portions of Christianity that do not buy into it.

 

I know--you were probably taught that these other Christians aren't "real" Christians at all so they don't count. It's really tough. The brainwashing is subtle and tenacious for a reason. If it weren't it wouldn't work at all. Here's another thought for what it's worth: How ethical is a system that depends on deceit for it success?

 

That is what religious indoctrination is. But all this doesn't help, either. I know because I've been there done that. We can only work our way out one step at a time. That's what we're here for--to support each other as we take those faltering steps. Take care my friend. You will come through.

[Guest maryr_32]

Thanks for the input. I will definitely check out the links. Yes, I was really a total freak for a while. I almost lost my partner of (now) ten years. Yes, on top of being a heathen, I'm a lesbian....LOL. She thought I had lost my mind - I thought I was 'living right'. Intellectually I ALWAYS had my doubts. I devoured the books like The Case for Christ - but found that the rebuttals to the author's arguments (the secular side) actually made more sense. What actually 'saved' me from fundyism really was my doubting, seeking, exploring nature. I used to frequent a site called Rapture Ready. WOW.....I finally came to the conclusion that if Christians couldn't decide among themselves who was a 'real' Christian.....how could I - or anyone else really know which version was right. Then the logical thing was that obviously the Bible couldn't be inerrant when there are obvious contradictions, no matter how you try to explain them away. From there....well, it's been stressful to turn my back on those strict beliefs. Every once in a while I get concerned about somethign like the prophecy....and need someone to knock my head back on!! I've read a TON of Dawkins, Sagan, Harris, etc... in the past couple of years. Ahhhhh reason.......

[SWIM]

Thanks for the input. I will definitely check out the links. Yes, I was really a total freak for a while. I almost lost my partner of (now) ten years. Yes, on top of being a heathen, I'm a lesbian....LOL. She thought I had lost my mind - I thought I was 'living right'. Intellectually I ALWAYS had my doubts. I devoured the books like The Case for Christ - but found that the rebuttals to the author's arguments (the secular side) actually made more sense. What actually 'saved' me from fundyism really was my doubting, seeking, exploring nature. I used to frequent a site called Rapture Ready. WOW.....I finally came to the conclusion that if Christians couldn't decide among themselves who was a 'real' Christian.....how could I - or anyone else really know which version was right. Then the logical thing was that obviously the Bible couldn't be inerrant when there are obvious contradictions, no matter how you try to explain them away. From there....well, it's been stressful to turn my back on those strict beliefs. Every once in a while I get concerned about somethign like the prophecy....and need someone to knock my head back on!! I've read a TON of Dawkins, Sagan, Harris, etc... in the past couple of years. Ahhhhh reason.......

 

Welcome maryr!

 

Lots of good stuff here already, just wanted to say also that it is one of the BIGGIES imo that makes religion dangerous. Nearly all of them have end time prophecies, and with millions of people not only anticipating apocolypse, but many "hoping" for it, makes religion deadly-dangerous on a global scale. IF the wrong set of people can cause or stop a great war and do not *because* of a religious belief, then religion itself will be to blame for any "end of the world".

 

It may happen because of this, given the right set of circumstances. Many things about religion is dangerous to society and the world in general. Go to www.godisimaginary.com (you might have already) and read around in there.

 

Brother Jeff's links are good too!

 

Again, welcome!

[R. S. Martin]

If you can read the Case for Christ and get your head back on straight again, I think you've got something going for you. I can never keep that book and Mere Christianity straight. I think Lee Strobel wrote one and C.S. Lewis the other. I take a personal offense to both those guys. It was one or the other or both those books that got between me and my family.

Of course, they would say it was me deciding to reject god. So be it. It was in conversation about one of those books--which someone gave me and I passed it on because I couldn't make myself read it but I knew someone in my family might enjoy it (and never realized what a potent thing it was)--that they figured out that I wasn't "good enough." I was accused for pushing atheism on them but nobody would come out and tell me what they were accusing me of--only that I knew what I was doing wrong and that it was intentional. It took me days to figure out what it was all about. Finally I figured out that they had ganged up on me and probably set the whole thing up to get me to talk because they were suspicious. But they had done it over a long period of time--several months had to have gone into the scheming that was required to bring about the conversation that eventually happened.

 

I have in mind the Case for Christ was instrumental. It's so powerful for the unwary reader because the author claims witness status--or something similar. I have never read the book. I just know that neither C. S. Lewis nor Lee Strobel were present at the crucifixion. Nor is it likely that any of the NT writers were. The latter is more iffy and it depends what authorities one accepts. I doubt that the historical Jesus ever lived. The arguments for his existence are simply too weak. It hit me while my NT prof was proving Jesus' historicity that if I had no stronger evidence for the arguments in my papers than he was providing for the historicity of Jesus, then he would not accept it--not on the graduate level. Yet empires are built and destroyed on the belief of this man's existence--he MUST have existed. (My prof didn't say that; that's just my take on Christian attitude.)

 

I say that is all the more evidence that he DIDN'T exist. How could any real human being's life have made enough of an impact to survive the ravages of human nature and time? It simply doesn't make sense. Not to me. It makes a lot more sense to me to think that it's some kind of folk tale that got written down. Or that it's a Mystery Religion that didn't die because the Roman emperor adopted it. I don't know too much about these things--just enough to know that it's very little. Not too much was preserved for us to know about, I guess. But these days nonChristian scholars such as Acharya S are studying some of these things and I believe we are getting a different perspective.

[Thurisaz]

Hi all,

 

 

I'm new here, and this is my very first post. I am so glad to have found this site. Coming out of all the brainwashing, guilt, etc....is SO difficult. It's good to get some support.

 

It's a fine place with fine people, no doubt.

 

That said, greetings from Germany

 

How do you explain away some of the things like

 

1 the cashless society

 

2 the mark of beast technology

 

3 the one world religion

 

4 the whole "the scoffers will say that Jesus isn't coming back...." (which is exactly what we are saying)

 

5 one world government

 

6 the temple rebuilding by Jews, Israel coming back after 2000 years.......

 

1 Nothing to do with da babble. The whole "can't buy or sell" stuff nowhere claims that the "mark" is your money. The same effect was possible already since a looooooong time ago. Think "tattoo".

 

2 dito. Tattoo would do the trick too, and not just since a measly few years ago.

 

3 So? Pretty much every dictator tried (in a way) to unite (what he called) the world under one rule. And dictators tend to make a kind of religion, if you want to call it like that, of their empire. Think of "Father" stalin and "Der Führer" as prime examples.

Let alone that, ironically, I don't see anyone trying to force all the world into one religion except for the morontheists babbling about prophecies claiming that very thing. Hypocrisy, thy name is morontheism. See also 6 below, about self-fulfilling prophecies

 

4 Spread an idea among enough people and there will always be some who disagree vehemently. That "prophecy" is about as shocking as me predicting "behold, rain will fall. Sometime. Somewhere.".

 

5 See 3. Nothing new about that idea at all. Not a big deal predicting that someone will try.

 

6 Self-fulfilling prophecies. So the (morontheist) Jews are trying to do something their own scriptures say will happen. Jews (and their sympathizers, especially shortly after the horror the Jews had to go through in the 3rd reich) wanted to settle in what their own scripture calls their holy land. There is indeed a clear cause there for both the things you mention, and it ain't anything supernatural.

 

And yes, you are right. It's nothing but your residual brainwashing raising its ugly head.

[Realist]

Hello Maryr_32!

Like many here I too have struggled with certain factors of deconversion! One thing I will say it does become easier with time! Just read as much as you can from varied viewpoints - not like the little square we were originally taught ONLY to partake of!

I think one of the things that really does prove the bullshit of prophecy is that Jesus himself clearly stated himself that he would return in the lifetime of some of those alive at the time. I think this link here will point you to verses from the bible that state that:

http://www.evilbible.com/end_times.htm

 

This site here also has some good stuff on it:

http://www.inu.net/skeptic/

 

I hope you soon lose any fear this evil has over you!

Take care!

Doug.

[hereticzero]

I am at a loss as to how gays and lesbians accept christianity as their religion when all it does is degrade, ridicule, and impose guilt where none should exist. Most gays and lesbians I know, struggle with such feelings because they want to fit in with christianity. They are caught up in the same mind control games as the rest of us.

 

If someone is persecuted by religious means, it makes more sense to cut ties with the church and move on. To me, for someone to stay with the church equals self-abuse because they know the church will ridicule them but they go anyway. It just makes no sense to me why people hang around churches after years of abuse.

[gradstu09]

Clearly, the cure is not to watch Glenn Beck.

[gradstu09]

Oh, and congrats. I know christian LGBT people, and I don't get it.

[Robbobrob]

I love Penn (from Penn and Teller) when he argues that if, as some now claim, that Nostrodumbass predicted 9/11, where were these people on Sept 10th. If anyone had prior knowledge due to the prophesies and did not come forward, then there should be criminal charges brought against them.

 

If you make prophesies vague enough, and wait long enough, they all "come true."

 

I predict a major natural disater will strike a seaside community with an L shaped building in the next 5 years.......there, I am a prophet too. Anyone think I will be wrong?

[Guest lenbitme]

Wow, this topic caught my eye because I was actually struggling with this, this morning. I have the hardest time with the end time prophecy that "the world will get worse" meaning people will start turning away from Christianity, more sex, violence, drugs, abandoned babies, yadda yadda yadda will occur, and as far as I know, that's what's happening. What do you guys say about that? I know it's ridiculous to the EXTREME, but it somehow has dug its gritty little tallons into the back of my neck and held on. It bothers me, honestly, even though I know it's ridiculous.

[par4dcourse]

Wow, this topic caught my eye because I was actually struggling with this, this morning. I have the hardest time with the end time prophecy that "the world will get worse" meaning people will start turning away from Christianity, more sex, violence, drugs, abandoned babies, yadda yadda yadda will occur, and as far as I know, that's what's happening. What do you guys say about that? I know it's ridiculous to the EXTREME, but it somehow has dug its gritty little tallons into the back of my neck and held on. It bothers me, honestly, even though I know it's ridiculous.

There are infinitely more people to do the "worse" things now, and we know all about every one of those instantly, as opposed to months later as in years past. Also, their lard and slaver told an audience that he would be back before all of them died. Unless the 2k+ yo "wandering Jew" is among us, jebus is just a wee bit late.

Listen to your head, not the fucktards.

[florduh]

Listen to your head, not the fucktards.

 

 

Most eloquent and totally correct.

[Thurisaz]

I am at a loss as to how gays and lesbians accept christianity as their religion when all it does is degrade, ridicule, and impose guilt where none should exist.

 

That's very possible (and easy) with the liberal brands of the cult. You know, those who cling to "love gawd and love your neighbor" and ignore the entire rest of the book'o'bullshit

[mwc]

"the world will get worse" meaning people will start turning away from Christianity, more sex, violence, drugs, abandoned babies, yadda yadda yadda will occur, and as far as I know, that's what's happening. What do you guys say about that?

I'd say show me some actual evidence. Define "worse" in some meaningful way and then plot these things on a graph going back some thousands of years on a worldwide scale. Don't just guess but have real data to back up what it is you're asserting.

 

Could you do this? Could anyone do this? Of course not. It's a silly thing. Stop worrying about. Things get "better." Things get "worse." That's just the nature of reality. There's no magic involved.

 

I do have admit that I'm more than a little confused that "turning away from Christianity" and "more sex" are on your short list of "worse." Not just that but then you drive the point home "yadda yadda yadda will occur" repeatedly. Over and over and over. Egads, have some control! (Yada in Hebrew is "to know" or essentially "to fuck" as in "Adam knew [yada] Eve his wife" ). Pervert.

 

mwc

[Grandpa Harley]

I am at a loss as to how gays and lesbians accept christianity as their religion when all it does is degrade, ridicule, and impose guilt where none should exist.

 

That's very possible (and easy) with the liberal brands of the cult. You know, those who cling to "love gawd and love your neighbor" and ignore the entire rest of the book'o'bullshit

 

Two words... Bishop Spong.

 

US Episcopal view Lev and the NT 'gay' bashing as bronze age nonsense and dodgy translations, no longer applicable or desirable...

[Vomit Comet]

US Episcopal view Lev and the NT 'gay' bashing as bronze age nonsense and dodgy translations, no longer applicable or desirable...

 

Isn't all of it Bronze/Iron Age nonsense?

[Kuroikaze]

The guilt, etc... ANYWAY = last night I happened to have on the Glenn Beck show on cable, and he had a Biblical prophecy guy discussing the end times prophecies.

 

Most of the media are idiots...Glenn Beck doubly so, I'd suggesting watching something else...or reading a book. "Why I'm not a Christian" by Betrand Russell is a good read.

 

How do you explain away some of the things like the cashless society

 

Just like the paperless office, it doesn't exist and probably never will. Not even sure the bible predicted this

 

the mark of beast technology,

 

Where is it? I've heard lots of conspiracy theories, but nothing concrete. The predictions on this are so vague they could mean anything.

 

the one world religion,

 

Can't imagine how this would ever happen.

 

 

the whole "the scoffers will say that Jesus isn't coming back...." (which is exactly what we are saying),

 

If people make up story full of unbelievable nonsense, do they need to be able to see the future to predict that some people will doubt it?

 

one world government,

 

It'll happen about the time we get one world religion.

 

the temple rebuilding by Jews, Israel coming back after 2000 years.......

 

So called prophecies in the bible are not as clear on this as one might think.

 

I'm sure many of you know these prophecies. Somebody help me figure out the logical, rational, natural reason these things are actually in line with what the Bible predicted!!

 

Personally, I think much of it has to do with interpretation, much like Nostradamus - but I was curious as to what others think!!

 

You are correct, most of the so called prophecies in the bible are nothing of the kind, I'd recommend looking up the skeptics bible on Google sometime, check out a lot of the passages that contain "prophecies" and you'll see what I'm talking about.

[Grandpa Harley]

Which part of 'US Episcopal view...' do you want me to clarify?

 

Since they're one of the richest groups in the US, they're not likely to admit it's all sheep dip...

[Guest maryr_32]

Yes, Bishop Spong. I went thru a Spong period= you know, I wasn't quite ready to just leave the cult and he was Christianity lite.... I actually think he makes some really good points, and I'm pretty sure he qualifies as if not atheist, at least agnostic. It's been a while but I thought he was really pretty readable. It was a good bridge for me to segue into deconversion!!

[Grandpa Harley]

He's still readable, and I even like him...