What I Fear About Some Wiccans

[Guest InvisiblePinkUnicornPony]

As a pagan/occultist I have always felt the need to completely deconvert myself from christianity. I don't feel that a nature based religion should be mixed with such a strict rigid and prejudice religion. Where am I getting this statement you may ask? Wiccans themselves or maybe even Wicca in general. I've heard some say they believe in Yahweh, Jesus etc. and with all due respect I believe this is dead wrong! These "gods" were or are against witchcraft, right? And if Yahweh isn't against magick, why does he let his followers behave like assholes to witches? I've noticed on this forum how a pagan posted a thread made for atheists asking them why don't they believe in pagan gods or something of that nature. It seemed to me that the person was evangelizing like a christian! Is this what happens sometimes when a christian turns pagan? It's as if their old beliefs haven't completely washed away and could possibly turn paganism into something else.

 

There are other things that are a red flag such as two books I saw called either The Ten Commandments of Witchcraft or Commandments of Witchcraft and also the Witches' Bible. To me that sounds like a Christian-wanna-be-witch wrote those. Sometimes I think that christianity can hold such a deep rooted fear in a person that it never goes away no matter how many banishing spells ya cast. Maybe I'm reading to much into these things but it sorta makes me mad but it just seems as if these witches/wiccans who claim to be pagan are still christian. Does that make sense? Like I said I can be reading to much into it.

[hereticzero]

'xtian pagans' are the vogue for the goth crowd. I don't see the sense in blending several religions together. A fable is still a fable whether it involves the mother goddess or jesus christ and mary.

[Rhia]

My mom is a Wiccan, and it scares me at times. She's just as fanatical as other Christians that I've met - wants to actually "hex/curse" those who don't agree. She believes she's a priestess, and because I'm her flesh and blood - simply decided to "erase" me from her reality, because I'm an atheist.

 

I think SOME of them are just as bad as Xns. Not all, but definitely some. Then again, I'm friends with quite a few NICE Xns.

[The Sage Nabooru]

I think one thing that really insults Wicca is that many of its teenage practictioners believe it's part of the Goth scene - that is, it really is evil, Satanic, depressing, secretive, black magic. Like they're into it just so they can tell people that they're witches.

[Guest Zenobia]

My mom is a Wiccan, and it scares me at times. She's just as fanatical as other Christians that I've met - wants to actually "hex/curse" those who don't agree. She believes she's a priestess, and because I'm her flesh and blood - simply decided to "erase" me from her reality, because I'm an atheist.

 

I don't understand these kinds of "wiccans." They are just as bad as fundies and I won't hang with them.

 

Thats one reason I refuse to label myself as "wiccan"... I consider myself "pagan" but only loosely because I don't want to be locked into one system of beliefs, etc. I do believe in the feminine mystique, in the intuitive genius, in the power of the subconscious mind and being pagan helps me tap into that...

 

But I don't believe that I have special "psychic" powers or that I was Cleopatra in a past life LOL...

 

And I don't get the whole "hexing" or casting evil spells on people. Don't these "wiccans" believe in the three-fold rule??? I would never cast any spell that infringes on another person's free will... no way I want that kind of bad karma.

[Rhia]

My mom is a Wiccan, and it scares me at times. She's just as fanatical as other Christians that I've met - wants to actually "hex/curse" those who don't agree. She believes she's a priestess, and because I'm her flesh and blood - simply decided to "erase" me from her reality, because I'm an atheist.

 

I don't understand these kinds of "wiccans." They are just as bad as fundies and I won't hang with them.

 

Thats one reason I refuse to label myself as "wiccan"... I consider myself "pagan" but only loosely because I don't want to be locked into one system of beliefs, etc. I do believe in the feminine mystique, in the intuitive genius, in the power of the subconscious mind and being pagan helps me tap into that...

 

But I don't believe that I have special "psychic" powers or that I was Cleopatra in a past life LOL...

 

And I don't get the whole "hexing" or casting evil spells on people. Don't these "wiccans" believe in the three-fold rule??? I would never cast any spell that infringes on another person's free will... no way I want that kind of bad karma.

 

 

My mom is ALL that you just describe - claims to be psychic, reincarnated from some high priestess, AND believes that Satan exists and is hunting her down for a great spiritual battle. She also claims to be a healer, that I am as well, that I'm "jealous" to not be a medium (her favorite shows are Ghost Whisperer and Medium), and that I'm an Indigo child. Fucking battier than the mad hatter. Her excuse for the fact that her youngest daughter (my kid sister) prefers me to her as a human being is "well, you're an Indigo child, and she's a Crystal child - I can't control that the Universe has given you a bond stronger than any a mother-daughter could ever have".

 

She's obsessed with being able to change people through her "magick", and basically decided long ago that she's "too powerful" for the Three-fold rule to apply. She also believes in Karma, and that Karma is entitled to give her everything she wants, because she had a "bad life" to begin with.

 

She also mixed her Wicca with a small smattering of Buddhism, and the Matrix - she believes she can "change" her reality, like choosing between the red and blue pills.

 

I'm ashamed to share blood with her, 99.9(continuous)% of the time.

 

I know that this does not apply to all Wiccans, but I think Wicca is just as dangerous when mixed with mental illness as it is when mental illness is mixed with Christianity. I nearly became a Pagan out of Christianity, but stopped myself when I saw my mother.

[Guest Zenobia]

My mom is ALL that you just describe - claims to be psychic, reincarnated from some high priestess, AND believes that Satan exists and is hunting her down for a great spiritual battle. She also claims to be a healer, that I am as well, that I'm "jealous" to not be a medium (her favorite shows are Ghost Whisperer and Medium), and that I'm an Indigo child. Fucking battier than the mad hatter. Her excuse for the fact that her youngest daughter (my kid sister) prefers me to her as a human being is "well, you're an Indigo child, and she's a Crystal child - I can't control that the Universe has given you a bond stronger than any a mother-daughter could ever have".

 

wow... that is fucked up. I'm sorry your mom is crazy... It sounds like she is grabbing onto "justifications" for everything she does, rather than being accountable and open to "changing" herself.

 

My mom is equally fucked up but in different ways... She went off the deep end years ago, and was probably already a bit crazy before I was born. She believes god speaks to HER only - that she is some kind of end-time prophetess, and that she knows more than any living human being about almost any sibject. Recently she was committed, which was probably the best thing for her... she was an incredibly unhappy person, constantly recycling negative memories in her head over and over. She'd get up at 4 in the morning and read the babble and start crying for hours. She was 'in love" with the apoistle Paul and convinced that she was the only one who "understood" him... *shudder*

 

I didnt speak to her for 15 years because she stalked me and wouldn't allow me to have my own life. She used to call my bosses and talk to them about me, try to get me fired. LOL... It was a mess.

 

Yeah... your mom definately has some issues. Just remember - YOU ARE NOT HER. That's what I have to keep telling myself because my biggest fear is that I'll become crazy like she is! I see little bits of herself in me all the time and it scares the fuck out of me. All I can do is be true to myself.

 

I think people like our moms are not true to themselves. You know? Being dishonest to yourself is the worst thing you can do. Your entire world view will be completely fucked and no one will ever be able to trust you - if you can't be honest with yourself.

 

I meet so few people who are really HONEST with themselves. As Billy Joel sang, "honesty is such a lonely word, everyone is so untrue..."

 

There are a lot of so-called pagans who are just in it for the shock value or whatever, or convinced they have special powers, etc... I just can't connect with people like that. One so-called "wiccan" I know recently told me my hubby's heart problems are basically my fault because I'm not a good enough witch. That is really fucked up.

[Rhia]

Yeah... your mom definately has some issues. Just remember - YOU ARE NOT HER. That's what I have to keep telling myself because my biggest fear is that I'll become crazy like she is! I see little bits of herself in me all the time and it scares the fuck out of me. All I can do is be true to myself.

 

That's what I tell myself everyday - I may be my mother's daughter, but I am not, never been, and never will be my mother.

 

In all honesty, I find at times her cruelty to be more boundless than the craziest fundy.

[Guest Zenobia]

That's scary... but unsurprising. I've met lots of self-described "wiccans" who are really very mean-spirited. I stay *far* away from them and make sure to do lots of uncrossing work and protection spells, protective energy... I actually *do* believe there are such things as psychic vampires. Most are not that way intentionally, they are just self-absorbed people who don't realize they are draining your energies by wrapping you up into their problems... But there are a few people who are quite intentional about it. Those are scary folks. I hope that isn't your mom, but if it is... mark your boundaries carefully, take plenty of kava kava or maybe some mary jane if that don't do the trick, and get as much "down" time as you can...

 

I used to have a hard time admitting to people that my mother was abusive. People wouldn't believe me and they would be so judgemental when I told them I didn't speak to her. How can you be so mean to your poor old mom? They'd ask... They had really stereotypical images of "mother" in their heads... mothers as warm nurturers, protectors, etc... but my mom was abusive mentally, physically, emotionally and spiritually. Women can be every bit as abusive as men, IMO... and maybe even more-so... but society is just as sexist in this view of women as it is in others.

[R. S. Martin]

Women can be every bit as abusive as men, IMO... and maybe even more-so... but society is just as sexist in this view of women as it is in others.

 

AGREED!

 

In my case, my mother turned such a loving warm and caring face to the wider world that nobody would believe me because what I told them was not how they knew my mother.

 

What she kept very carefully hidden was the nasty things she said about these people the minute they were out the door.

 

The cat-fights I've seen involving women--mothers and daughters and MILs and DILs. I fail to see why anyone thinks women cannot be abusive.

[R. S. Martin]

I've noticed on this forum how a pagan posted a thread made for atheists asking them why don't they believe in pagan gods or something of that nature. It seemed to me that the person was evangelizing like a christian!

 

Which thread was that? I know where I stand and why so I don't mind being asked so long as it's just a friendly and respectful discussion about what people believe. I think it becomes evangelization when someone tries to convince another person that they really need to accept a certain view or belief or god or whatever. I will illustrate with a few hypothetical situations that could possibly happen but I haven't seen it yet on exC.

 

Atheist to Theist: I try not to do this but I think this would be an example of evangelizing if I provided scientific evidence that belief in god is mistaken. Then if my argument is not accepted I provide more evidence. And I keep piling on the arguments for why you need to accept my argument. Everywhere I go I tell people the good news that there are no gods, etc. I keep insisting that people accept my argument. If I--or someone else--did that, maybe that would be evangelizing. Undoubtedly, it would be annoying and overbearing.

 

Pagan to Atheist: I think the same would apply to pagans. If the person asks why atheists don't believe in god and we explain but the pagan does not accept the answer, but tells us why we need to believe in gods anyway, that would seem overbearing at the least. Maybe he or she would go on about how real the gods are and how helpful it is to believe in gods, and maybe post it on various threads in many different ways about many different topics, just to show how helpful belief in gods is. That would probably be evangelizing. As stated, I haven't seen this happening on here but I don't read everything.

 

I personally do not consider the following things to be evangelism:

 

• What do you believe?
  
• Why do you believe it?
  
• How did you arrive at your belief?
  
• What is the evidence for those ideas?
  
• Who else thinks this way?
  

Nor do I think it is evangelism if you talk about:

 

• what you believe.
  
• why you believe it.
  
• how you arrived at your beliefs.
  
• the evidence for your beliefs.
  
• all the famous people who believed as you do.
  

Of course, if all these topics/questions happen in one sitting it might come across as rather heavy. It might feel like a grilling if I were being questioned. It might feel like I was being targeted by a salesperson if you were talking about your beliefs. On the other hand, in the right tone and context, such as a religious studies class or a forum discussion like this, it might be very interesting and educational.

 

DISCLAIMER: Just to clarify, this is my own personal opinion. Others may have other opinions. I don't remember seeing guidelines around here on this topic... If there are any, maybe someone will enlighten me.

[Vendredie]

I think one thing that really insults Wicca is that many of its teenage practictioners believe it's part of the Goth scene - that is, it really is evil, Satanic, depressing, secretive, black magic. Like they're into it just so they can tell people that they're witches.

I would agree that the current 'goth' scene thing with the younger folks does kind of insult what real wicca is meant to be, which is definately non-satanic. Witches do not practice satan worship, nor do they even believe he exists.

 

Yeah, that insults me as a teenage former practicioner. I still waffle in between Wicca and atheism from time to time, but keep getting turned off by Wicca either because I can't spiritually make a commitment to much (I was a very lazy Xtian most of the time) and because of all of the adult practioners acting like I'm another goth chick who thinks Wicca looks cool. eh, no. The only thing really stopping me from really getting into any form of Paganism is the god/dess aspect, I can't get myself to believe in a higher power.

 

And I agree with many here that some Wiccans are as bad as fundy Christians... Some Wiccans are unbelievably harsh about Xtianity (often harsher than what I see here ) Not to mention the idiots who think Christianity and Wicca are compatible religions! You can't mix the two, one is rigid and hate witchcraft while the other is very liberal and is pretty much witchcraft!

[Rev R]

Here is the thread Ruby

http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?showtopic=19744

 

The basic jist of the argument was "I can understand why people reject the Christian god, but there are other, much better gods."

[hereticzero]

The god of christianity is a pagan god all dressed up in the clothing chrisianity gave him. Abraham's god was pulled from a pantheon of gods he worshipped. Christianity claims everything not of their god is a pagan god and the xtian god is no different.

[Guest Zenobia]

The god of christianity is a pagan god all dressed up in the clothing chrisianity gave him. Abraham's god was pulled from a pantheon of gods he worshipped. Christianity claims everything not of their god is a pagan god and the xtian god is no different.

 

Yep... pretty much everything in christianity was "borrowed" from some older belief system... all the traditions, rituals, etc... including baptism, speaking in tongues, and the kinds of insense used in church...

[JernJane]

My mom is a Wiccan, and it scares me at times. She's just as fanatical as other Christians that I've met - wants to actually "hex/curse" those who don't agree. She believes she's a priestess, and because I'm her flesh and blood - simply decided to "erase" me from her reality, because I'm an atheist.

 

I think SOME of them are just as bad as Xns. Not all, but definitely some. Then again, I'm friends with quite a few NICE Xns.

 

Fanatics can be found in every ideology, whether religious or not it seems :/

[MultifariousBirdLady]

Wiccans themselves or maybe even Wicca in general. I've heard some say they believe in Yahweh, Jesus etc. and with all due respect I believe this is dead wrong! These "gods" were or are against witchcraft, right? And if Yahweh isn't against magick, why does he let his followers behave like assholes to witches?

 

These are good points. There are some Wiccans who do say that, but there are also many others who don't believe in Jesus. For what it's worth, those who do believe in Jesus in some sense sure don't believe in him the way Christians do. I suspect some do this simply to make a sort of peace with the Christian religion so that they don't become seen as Christian-bashers, which would be a bad P.R. move. I had one priest tell me, while I was complaining about my previous Christian involvement: "You know, Christianity is based so much on Paganism, it can't be all bad." I do think he had a point, even though he was missing (or ignoring) the points I was making about Christianity's mental manipulation.

 

You might be interested to know that there is actually an ancient Greek oracle (or perhaps two -- I've seen the same following argument attributed to the oracles of both Hekate and Zeus) which said that Jesus was simply a human whose soul became immortal, in the same way that the Greeks thought other human "Heroes" became immortal. The oracle went on to say that Christians "in their folly" worshiped his soul as a God when it really wasn't. It wasn't unusual in the ancient Greek world to attribute parentage to a God, either. So here is a fully Pagan way of believing "in Jesus" to some extent which is not at all Christian... i.e. that he's a "hero" and not literally some third person in a monotheistic trinity.

 

I've noticed on this forum how a pagan posted a thread made for atheists asking them why don't they believe in pagan gods or something of that nature. It seemed to me that the person was evangelizing like a christian! Is this what happens sometimes when a christian turns pagan? It's as if their old beliefs haven't completely washed away and could possibly turn paganism into something else.

 

Of course, this depends on the person. I suppose if they are still very conflicted and fearful of outright disbelief, perhaps they might take that stance. I do know that I was guilty of carrying certain aspects of the Christian mindset into my early years as a Pagan... but I saw other Pagans comment that baggage from one's previous religion should be questioned, too. One quote that stands out for me from that time is: "The Goddess is not Yahweh in a skirt!"

 

There are other things that are a red flag such as two books I saw called either The Ten Commandments of Witchcraft or Commandments of Witchcraft and also the Witches' Bible. To me that sounds like a Christian-wanna-be-witch wrote those.

 

Until you mentioned it here, I had never seen A Witch's 10 Commandments. I haven't read this one, but from what I was able to read of it on amazon.com, it is definitely a direct response to the Christian 10 Commandments. The chapters start out in fact with the Christian commandment, and then a Wiccan counter-commandment. I agree that this starts out on the wrong foot right from the beginning and gives the Judeo-Christian commandments too much power. However, for Wiccans that have recently left Chrisitanity, it might be a very attractive way of comparing and contrasting the two theologies.

 

I have to comment about The Witches Bible which is an older and excellent Wiccan text by Janet and Stewart Farrar. This book is really a republication of two of their previous books (Eight Sabbats for Witches and The Witches' Way) in one package. The title of this book, calling it a "Bible," was entirely the publisher's decision and not one which the authors themselves liked. I don't recall where I read about this, but it may have been in a book by Doreen Valiente or in a Pagan magazine a while back. So chalk this one up to the publisher's idea that a "bible" is a comprehensive reference, just like you can find books called The Pruner's Bible in horticulture or the Slot Car Bible for racing enthusiasts.

 

Sometimes I think that christianity can hold such a deep rooted fear in a person that it never goes away no matter how many banishing spells ya cast. Maybe I'm reading to much into these things but it sorta makes me mad but it just seems as if these witches/wiccans who claim to be pagan are still christian. Does that make sense? Like I said I can be reading to much into it.

 

Yes, it does make sense. I have seen exactly what you're talking about. In my experience, the more time goes on, the more the Christian mindset loses its grip, allowing for deeper questioning. In the meantime, for many newly Wiccan ex-Christians, Wicca is a safe haven to begin the questioning and exploration process. In Pagan communities, it's been noted that Wicca seems in fact to be a temporary faith for many, and that many Wiccans eventually end up in other Pagan faiths after learning the basics. It makes sense; Wicca is the most prevalent and easy-to-find Pagan religion, and can act as a springboard for further exploration into lesser known Paganisms that the general public is largely unaware of.

[Amethyst]

I tried Paganism for about a year or so after I left Christianity. That was when I realized religion was all the same song, different dance routine.

[SitraAhraLifotachKliffot]

As a pagan/occultist I have always felt the need to completely deconvert myself from christianity. I don't feel that a nature based religion should be mixed with such a strict rigid and prejudice religion. Where am I getting this statement you may ask? Wiccans themselves or maybe even Wicca in general. I've heard some say they believe in Yahweh, Jesus etc. and with all due respect I believe this is dead wrong! These "gods" were or are against witchcraft, right? And if Yahweh isn't against magick, why does he let his followers behave like assholes to witches? I've noticed on this forum how a pagan posted a thread made for atheists asking them why don't they believe in pagan gods or something of that nature. It seemed to me that the person was evangelizing like a christian! Is this what happens sometimes when a christian turns pagan? It's as if their old beliefs haven't completely washed away and could possibly turn paganism into something else.

 

There are other things that are a red flag such as two books I saw called either The Ten Commandments of Witchcraft or Commandments of Witchcraft and also the Witches' Bible. To me that sounds like a Christian-wanna-be-witch wrote those. Sometimes I think that christianity can hold such a deep rooted fear in a person that it never goes away no matter how many banishing spells ya cast. Maybe I'm reading to much into these things but it sorta makes me mad but it just seems as if these witches/wiccans who claim to be pagan are still christian. Does that make sense? Like I said I can be reading to much into it.

 

wiccans have a very fucked idea

i hate having them confused with us(anticosmic satanists)

[Guest Zenobia]

As a pagan/occultist I have always felt the need to completely deconvert myself from christianity. I don't feel that a nature based religion should be mixed with such a strict rigid and prejudice religion. Where am I getting this statement you may ask? Wiccans themselves or maybe even Wicca in general. I've heard some say they believe in Yahweh, Jesus etc. and with all due respect I believe this is dead wrong! These "gods" were or are against witchcraft, right? And if Yahweh isn't against magick, why does he let his followers behave like assholes to witches? I've noticed on this forum how a pagan posted a thread made for atheists asking them why don't they believe in pagan gods or something of that nature. It seemed to me that the person was evangelizing like a christian! Is this what happens sometimes when a christian turns pagan? It's as if their old beliefs haven't completely washed away and could possibly turn paganism into something else.

 

There are other things that are a red flag such as two books I saw called either The Ten Commandments of Witchcraft or Commandments of Witchcraft and also the Witches' Bible. To me that sounds like a Christian-wanna-be-witch wrote those. Sometimes I think that christianity can hold such a deep rooted fear in a person that it never goes away no matter how many banishing spells ya cast. Maybe I'm reading to much into these things but it sorta makes me mad but it just seems as if these witches/wiccans who claim to be pagan are still christian. Does that make sense? Like I said I can be reading to much into it.

 

wiccans have a very fucked idea

i hate having them confused with us(anticosmic satanists)

 

I for one would *NEVER* compare wicca with whatever you believe in. But explain to me, how exactly is wicca "fucked"? From what I've seen of you so far, I'd say it's *your* belief system that is fucked. You need to pull your head out of your butt, get over yourself, and take a look at the world around you...maybe even learn from it. At the ripe old age of 17 I doubt you have seen enough of the world to be making so many judgements about it.