God Speaks To Us

[DarthOkkata]

It's always nice when someone feeds your ego. Thanks.

 

I'm not saying that we should have a theocracy. I actually believe that church and state should stay seperate. Catholics and protestants alike have both took liberties they were never given in the new testament to do. As far as the Old testament goes, these examples of God's judgement were specific to the Old testament. God does not guide any one nation anymore the way He did with Israel.

 

Well, to start with, that doesn't make any sense if this is true:

 

Since God is unchanging, He thinks the same then as He does now.

 

Also, this line of thinking would lead one to conclude that one is going to hell anyway, because he's not part of the nation of Israel. I know you're Christian because you keep capitalizing 'He' as if the word has somehow become more special just because you're talking about god. Leave the pronouns alone would you? It's just bad grammar, not good faith.

 

Also, God's commands are specific based on what exactly? Even Jesus says he's not here for anyone but the lost sheep of Israel. Where does that leave you?

 

Why would we come up with a God that confronts us and asks us to be born again, and die to ourselves, and be willing to die physically if need be for standing for Him. I think we would come up with a God that supports us in all our efforts. As a matter of fact I think we have today created a god that does this. It is called the 'American Dream' You can see Him being preached in every self-help book out there and even on the trinity broadcasting network.

 

America does not equal Christianity. Our system of government was designed to prevent religion from taking power. It's starting to fail, and that's a very dangerous proposition for this country.

 

Self help is most often egotistical, aggressive, selfish, and very 'me' centered. It's designed to help people feel good about themselves and build confidence. Mostly it's just verbal petting with a bit of what you're supposed to be focusing on fixing. As far as I'm aware, aside from Christian centered propaganda material, it hardly ever mentions anything about God or Jesus, and never anything about 'moral values'.

 

You're putting God in some very strange places here.

 

No, I just don't believe we would come up with the God of the Bible.

 

Why not? We've come up with lots of evil characters before. You seem to be forgetting that 'God' is pretty much intended to be an explanation for nature for the most part.

 

Then there's the mind and political control thing, but that's another story.

 

At any rate, when things weren't going right, drought, flood, earthquake, lightning storm, evil dictator, whatever. God, was unhappy with you, and thus your suffering was a punishment. A sort of rationalization to help prevent suck from happening for no good reason, and thus equaling a large waste of time better spent on being happy and well.

 

Sometimes it was a more personal event, such as someone keeling over from a rare incurable disease, or just a regular curable one that hadn't even been named yet, or a broken leg, or thumb, or gastric pains, or when dad had a particularly foul case of the farts [though, he might claim the god/gods were pleased with him], or whatever.

 

Other times, things went well for our ancestors. God was pleased with them, they won the war, had a good crop, found a beautiful bride while raiding a neighboring village, managed to kill every last infidel/heathen in an entire country...ect...

 

Now the problem set in when God started asking for payment, and attached conditions to his blessings. Of course, he would only talk to 'special people' and everyone else would just have to sit and listen, or god would become angry and smite them.

 

We all know how much that would suck. After all, look what happened to the cities that perverted, abusive, incestuous, family abandoning, lout, Lot lived in.

 

There is a perfectly rational explanation for how the idea of God came about, complete with him being a vindictive prick who demands worship and obedience from you, and would punish you if you didn't guess the right amount. All to explain when the neighbors got mad and crushed you, or the local grain was eaten by locust, or the local volcano covers half a city in lava, or why Uncles Steve and Bob deserve to be burned at the stake.

 

You're working with a flawed premise to begin with here.

 

I do not think that most of you who have been responding to me have different morals. I do think however that our basis and motivation for following our common morals are different. I know that most christians, atheists, and non-christians have a common set of morals.

 

Then why bring it up, and then become defensive about it? If this is true, then you were drumming up noise over something that's not an issue to begin with even though you already knew it.

 

What? Did you expect us to become impressed with your awe inspiring set of 'Christian Moral Values'[tm]? There are a lot of Atheist here, and we're the analytical types. Expect us to pick apart your arguments and point out flaws and holes in them. We're not trying to be unkind, but find your beliefs lacking for explainable reasons and feel compelled to point it out to you.

 

To continue to assume that everyone who says I am a christian or every nation that says it is christian is a building a straw man. It is coming up with terrible examples to stand in for real christians. I am not here defending everything that has the tag christian.

 

What exactly is a real Christian? Can you drink poison? Handle dangerous snakes? Ask mountains to move out of the way and have them hop aside for you?

 

You've set up yet another straw man about straw men. Only your definition of what constitutes a true Christian really is one. How are we supposed to know which particular delusions you're under? There's quite a list of them.

 

What criteria are you using to decide who is faking and who isn't?

Who are you to say who or what is Christian, and where can I find the information that proves what percentage of them are faking it exactly?

What are your credentials considering you're speaking as though you have some sort of authority on the subject?

Are you the Pope, or a Cardinal, a Bishop even?

What if they aren't Roman Catholic, maybe Baptist? Are they faking it? How many are? What about the Mormons and the JW? Is there a percentage rating there?

How do you know whether the fakers, or the real Christians have the majority?

 

Please note, if you are unable to answer these questions, you really have no place speaking about it that way. You're just saying things that sound right to you, without bothering to find out if it's really true or not. Not a very sound way to learn anything.

[whereelse]

It's always nice when someone feeds your ego. Thanks.

 

I'm not saying that we should have a theocracy. I actually believe that church and state should stay seperate. Catholics and protestants alike have both took liberties they were never given in the new testament to do. As far as the Old testament goes, these examples of God's judgement were specific to the Old testament. God does not guide any one nation anymore the way He did with Israel.

 

Well, to start with, that doesn't make any sense if this is true:

 

Since God is unchanging, He thinks the same then as He does now.

 

Also, this line of thinking would lead one to conclude that one is going to hell anyway, because he's not part of the nation of Israel. I know you're Christian because you keep capitalizing 'He' as if the word has somehow become more special just because you're talking about god. Leave the pronouns alone would you? It's just bad grammar, not good faith.

 

Also, God's commands are specific based on what exactly? Even Jesus says he's not here for anyone but the lost sheep of Israel. Where does that leave you?

 

Why would we come up with a God that confronts us and asks us to be born again, and die to ourselves, and be willing to die physically if need be for standing for Him. I think we would come up with a God that supports us in all our efforts. As a matter of fact I think we have today created a god that does this. It is called the 'American Dream' You can see Him being preached in every self-help book out there and even on the trinity broadcasting network.

 

America does not equal Christianity. Our system of government was designed to prevent religion from taking power. It's starting to fail, and that's a very dangerous proposition for this country.

 

Self help is most often egotistical, aggressive, selfish, and very 'me' centered. It's designed to help people feel good about themselves and build confidence. Mostly it's just verbal petting with a bit of what you're supposed to be focusing on fixing. As far as I'm aware, aside from Christian centered propaganda material, it hardly ever mentions anything about God or Jesus, and never anything about 'moral values'.

 

You're putting God in some very strange places here.

 

No, I just don't believe we would come up with the God of the Bible.

 

Why not? We've come up with lots of evil characters before. You seem to be forgetting that 'God' is pretty much intended to be an explanation for nature for the most part.

 

Then there's the mind and political control thing, but that's another story.

 

At any rate, when things weren't going right, drought, flood, earthquake, lightning storm, evil dictator, whatever. God, was unhappy with you, and thus your suffering was a punishment. A sort of rationalization to help prevent suck from happening for no good reason, and thus equaling a large waste of time better spent on being happy and well.

 

Sometimes it was a more personal event, such as someone keeling over from a rare incurable disease, or just a regular curable one that hadn't even been named yet, or a broken leg, or thumb, or gastric pains, or when dad had a particularly foul case of the farts [though, he might claim the god/gods were pleased with him], or whatever.

 

Other times, things went well for our ancestors. God was pleased with them, they won the war, had a good crop, found a beautiful bride while raiding a neighboring village, managed to kill every last infidel/heathen in an entire country...ect...

 

Now the problem set in when God started asking for payment, and attached conditions to his blessings. Of course, he would only talk to 'special people' and everyone else would just have to sit and listen, or god would become angry and smite them.

 

We all know how much that would suck. After all, look what happened to the cities that perverted, abusive, incestuous, family abandoning, lout, Lot lived in.

 

There is a perfectly rational explanation for how the idea of God came about, complete with him being a vindictive prick who demands worship and obedience from you, and would punish you if you didn't guess the right amount. All to explain when the neighbors got mad and crushed you, or the local grain was eaten by locust, or the local volcano covers half a city in lava, or why Uncles Steve and Bob deserve to be burned at the stake.

 

You're working with a flawed premise to begin with here.

 

I do not think that most of you who have been responding to me have different morals. I do think however that our basis and motivation for following our common morals are different. I know that most christians, atheists, and non-christians have a common set of morals.

 

Then why bring it up, and then become defensive about it? If this is true, then you were drumming up noise over something that's not an issue to begin with even though you already knew it.

 

What? Did you expect us to become impressed with your awe inspiring set of 'Christian Moral Values'[tm]? There are a lot of Atheist here, and we're the analytical types. Expect us to pick apart your arguments and point out flaws and holes in them. We're not trying to be unkind, but find your beliefs lacking for explainable reasons and feel compelled to point it out to you.

 

To continue to assume that everyone who says I am a christian or every nation that says it is christian is a building a straw man. It is coming up with terrible examples to stand in for real christians. I am not here defending everything that has the tag christian.

 

What exactly is a real Christian? Can you drink poison? Handle dangerous snakes? Ask mountains to move out of the way and have them hop aside for you?

 

You've set up yet another straw man about straw men. Only your definition of what constitutes a true Christian really is one. How are we supposed to know which particular delusions you're under? There's quite a list of them.

 

What criteria are you using to decide who is faking and who isn't?

Who are you to say who or what is Christian, and where can I find the information that proves what percentage of them are faking it exactly?

What are your credentials considering you're speaking as though you have some sort of authority on the subject?

Are you the Pope, or a Cardinal, a Bishop even?

What if they aren't Roman Catholic, maybe Baptist? Are they faking it? How many are? What about the Mormons and the JW? Is there a percentage rating there?

How do you know whether the fakers, or the real Christians have the majority?

 

Please note, if you are unable to answer these questions, you really have no place speaking about it that way. You're just saying things that sound right to you, without bothering to find out if it's really true or not. Not a very sound way to learn anything.

 

About the self-help books, I was saying that that is our American god. Our god called the 'American Dream.' I was trying to make a point that I don't think we would make a God that confronts us. We would make one that supports us on everything. Plainly the American Dream god is not the God of the Bible.

 

I have no title to give my opinion validity. I am a public school teacher that is a christian. God is personal to me. His Word is as well. I know that I do not know it perfectly, but I am educated in it. I am also not here to defend any denomination, only the Bible.

 

One thing to think about: Not every story you read in the Bible is full of actions condoned by God. As a matter of fact most of the stories are full of terrible acts. He allowed things He did not condone. His judgement is not always seen in this life. I only ask you to read the Bible as you would any other book. You wouldn't read one chapter in the middle of one book and decide the entire contents would you.

[whereelse]

As far as the Old testament goes, these examples of God's judgement were specific to the Old testament. God does not guide any one nation anymore the way He did with Israel.

That's a lie and shows how little you understand of the scriptures. Jesus not once ever said that the commandments God gave in the Old Testament were only specific to the Israelites. That was something Paul made up himself but Jesus said that he never came to destroy the old law and that until heaven and earth passed away, not one jot of the old law will pass. Quoted from Matthew 5:17-18

“Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.

Last I checked, heaven and earth haven't passed away yet, so the commandments of the old law still apply to Christians in addition to the new commandments of Jesus. Even if we magically pretend the old law is no longer applicable, how does it justify the fact that God at one point commanded the stoning of children? How does God giving the commandment specifically to the Isrealites somehow making God moral any different than Pilate washing the blood off his hands to justify his crucifying of Jesus? Aren't you basically saying that God washed the blood off his hands? If that was immoral for Pilate, why should it be moral for God to do?

 

I said that He does not guide (meaning in the same manner) nations today that way He did Israel. I was responding to a post about whether I thought a theocracy was a good idea. Good quote. I agree. His law has not and will not pass away, and Jesus fulfilled it.

[whereelse]

I do not think that most of you who have been responding to me have different morals. I do think however that our basis and motivation for following our common morals are different. I know that most christians, atheists, and non-christians have a common set of morals.

Very well. Then let's talk about that. How do you see the basis and motivation for following these morals to be different? What do you see as that basis, say for me, to be to following these morals? I'm curious to see what you perceive those reasons to be, as understanding is often gained through seeing how others perceive you and the basis for that. It may prove to be interesting to you as well to hear how I perceive myself in this as well. Understanding is a two way street, but I'd like to hear your perception first.

 

I would not consider myself a conservative republican, but that can be a later discussion. Please do not assume that I am a typical 'christian conservative republican' that thinks that conservative equals christian.

Very well, I won't make any assumptions. Do you feel that Christians can have socially liberal views, such as differences in opinion on say, the pro-life/pro-choice issue? (not wishing at all to talk about that issue directly, but as a point of understanding how you perceive what it means to be a Christian in your association with Christianity).

 

First of all I want to thank you for remaining true to the purpose of this forum. There have been some insults, but not from you. I appreciate it.

Anyway, I could be wrong but I think your motivation is to act right for the sake of acting right. I think that you think that living morally true to yourself is worthwhile in and of itself. I think that you probably belief we should all live by the golden rule for all of our sakes. I am giving this my best shot. I can not see your thoughts, and I'm just answering your question honestly.

 

About political views; I would consider myself conservative on moral issues such as abortion, but liberal on issues such as social justice. I honestly just try my best to follow what I see as Christ's model in the Bible. But to answer your question; yes I do think its possible, though specifically on abortion I do not understand how someone following the Bible could come to the pro-life conclusion.

 

I am interested to see what your motivation is. What do you think my true motivation is for living morally.

[whereelse]

I am not agreeing with the notion that God speaks to us in some subjective voice. I believe God has spoken in His Word. Since God is unchanging, He thinks the same then as He does now. I know when I find something certain in the Bible God still thinks that way today.

If you truly believe this, what day do you go to church? Do you eat unclean foods such as pork and shrimp? Do you keep Easter and Christmas, or do you keep God's original feast days? Do you believe Christ nailed the 10 commandments to the cross at His death?

 

This is a potentially long discussion. The Bible says that the Old testament rituals were a shadow of what was to come--Christ. The law is supposed to be a tutor to bring us to Christ. We see by our continual breaking of God's law that we are all transgressors of it. Therefore the law teaches us of our need for Christ.

Many of the festival days and specific foods not to be eaten were specific to the nation of Israel. They were to show the nation of Israel by physical examples how God was holy and they were to be separate to Him. This is a very condensed overview.

[jenna]

I am not agreeing with the notion that God speaks to us in some subjective voice. I believe God has spoken in His Word. Since God is unchanging, He thinks the same then as He does now. I know when I find something certain in the Bible God still thinks that way today.

If you truly believe this, what day do you go to church? Do you eat unclean foods such as pork and shrimp? Do you keep Easter and Christmas, or do you keep God's original feast days? Do you believe Christ nailed the 10 commandments to the cross at His death?

 

This is a potentially long discussion. The Bible says that the Old testament rituals were a shadow of what was to come--Christ. The law is supposed to be a tutor to bring us to Christ. We see by our continual breaking of God's law that we are all transgressors of it. Therefore the law teaches us of our need for Christ.

Many of the festival days and specific foods not to be eaten were specific to the nation of Israel. They were to show the nation of Israel by physical examples how God was holy and they were to be separate to Him. This is a very condensed overview.

I was waiting to see if you would answer this. But this really doesn't answer anything. Which is your Sabbath day? The 7th day or the 1st? Do you eat unclean foods? Do you think God would have commanded one particular race of people to keep these laws, and tell the rest of us it didn't matter if we kept them or not?

[DarthOkkata]

About the self-help books, I was saying that that is our American god. Our god called the 'American Dream.' I was trying to make a point that I don't think we would make a God that confronts us. We would make one that supports us on everything. Plainly the American Dream god is not the God of the Bible.

 

Look, maybe -you- couldn't come up with such a thing. I could, any number of novelist could. Your own personal lacking in creativity doesn't reflect on the rest of us. Literature is a medium that often delves into such confrontation and thinking. Philosophy probably wouldn't exist at all were that not the case.

 

You're insulting the human race by stating that 'we couldn't come up with it on our own'. Trying to bring false humility to what is really a rather simple idea. God, the all loving bringer of mercy and kindness, has a temper because he was created in our image. His flaws are a reflection of us, not the other way around.

 

The reality of it is, the god of the bible is not so very different from Allah, Vishnu, Mithra, Zeus, Odin, Horus, and any number of other gods that existed both before and after him.

 

I have no title to give my opinion validity. I am a public school teacher that is a christian. God is personal to me. His Word is as well. I know that I do not know it perfectly, but I am educated in it. I am also not here to defend any denomination, only the Bible.

 

Then why bring it up? You were making claims as if you had facts.

 

I am also educated in 'it'. I just asked too many questions and figured out that 'it' is full of errors, horrible behavior often commanded by god, and was a very poor place to root your personal moral system. It's an awful, poorly written, mishmash of primitive, and barbaric, Jewish fairy tales. The world does not reflect the facts presented in it, and I'm not talking about spiritual facts.

 

The sediment layers don't match up to a global flood.

 

We've found human settlements in Egypt a thousand years before the 'birthday of Earth'.

 

We've discovered that the moon reflects light, and doesn't make it.

 

No record of the Hebrews being enslaved to the Egyptians exist today.

 

The story of the Exodus doesn't match what we know of the Egyptian army at the time. They had forts and forces on both sides of the Red Sea.

 

Why worry about delivering them from the Philistines when they didn't exist for another five hundred years?

 

How do you manage to wander a desert for 40 years without leaving so much as a mummified turd behind?

 

Why paint Herod [the great] as an evil baby murdering monster? He was one of the best rulers of his time, and never commanded any mass murders of children. There are records that prove this, because it isn't in them. I'm not just talking about lands he ruled either. His neighbors would have taken notice of such a thing.

 

Why does no one seem to notice a figure as important as Jesus until well after his death?

 

Why is the Christian bible 500 years too young, and in the wrong language? [Greek, not Aramaic.]

 

Why are there no first hand accounts of Jesus anywhere besides the bible?

 

I've yet to see anyone provide a good reason why an all knowing all powerful super being would care about having a personal relationship with anyone here. It's incredibly egotistical and arrogant to assume that such a thing would show any interest in any of us.

 

One thing to think about: Not every story you read in the Bible is full of actions condoned by God. As a matter of fact most of the stories are full of terrible acts. He allowed things He did not condone. His judgement is not always seen in this life. I only ask you to read the Bible as you would any other book. You wouldn't read one chapter in the middle of one book and decide the entire contents would you.

 

I went to Catholic School, when I was eighteen, I could have recited it to you word for word. Trust me, I've read it. God commands the nation of Israel to slaughter, rape, pillage, and commit genocide upon their neighbors. At one point, he tells them to go on a mass kidnapping raid on the neighbors young virgin daughters.

 

There is nothing merciful and loving about the god of the bible. Jesus wasn't really all that nice a guy either. In fact, he was rather anti social outside of public speaking, sometimes gave very bad advice, and was racist.

 

At one point in Matthew, a woman ask him for help. The first thing he does is tell her to screw off because she's not a Jew. He then proceeds to call her a dog to her face, [considerably more offensive culturally than it would be in an English speaking nation,] and makes her admit that she's a dog and beg him before he helps her.

 

To you, it is a lesson in humility, to the real world, its just rude racist behavior.

 

When he said 'Love thy neighbors' he was talking about other Jews. It's quite clear if you understand the context he was speaking in. Not once does he ever claim to be the son of God in the entire bible. He thought of himself as a holy man, or rabbi, not the beginnings of a new world order.

 

I've seen no evidence that proves he even existed outside of legend. He's actually a fairly common tragic hero from the era. There are a lot of things stolen from other places in the bible, in fact, most of it is wanton plagarism. There's a great deal of Mithraism, and the flood story existed in many forms in local folklore.

 

If you have proof Jesus was ever real, feel free to provide it.

[kozimoto]

Hey, I'm late to this one, but what the deuce.

 

I also have had a few discussion with xians about the many interpretations of the bible, and often been told, as whereelse said, that "the problems are in the details, the fundamentals are still the same."

 

The fundamentals? Like....how to be saved?

 

Ephesians 2:8

8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God.

grace through faith, right? easy!

 

John 3:3

In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.

Oh no, not just that, I have to be born again as well! Darn!

 

Mark 16:16

Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved

Ah shit, and baptized, too?

 

James 2:24

You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

Ah, so faith alone is no good, I have to do works as well? But Ephesians said in Chapter 2:9 that works are useless for salavation? WTF??

 

1 Timothy 2:15

But women will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.

Well, that solves it, I just have to have a kid and I'll be right!

[Neon Genesis]

One thing to think about: Not every story you read in the Bible is full of actions condoned by God. As a matter of fact most of the stories are full of terrible acts. He allowed things He did not condone. His judgement is not always seen in this life. I only ask you to read the Bible as you would any other book. You wouldn't read one chapter in the middle of one book and decide the entire contents would you.

That still doesn't change the fact that God purposely caused many immoral actions in the bible. Even if God didn't cause all of the events but only allowed them to occur, then that still proves God is immoral. According to the bible, God is supposedly all-knowing, all-loving, and all-powerful. If God is all-knowing, then he would have already knew the immoral events were going to occur before they happened. If he allows them to happen anyway when he could have intervened at any point as God does in other instances in scriptures, then it proves God is not all-loving because God sat back and allowed peopled to suffer knowing that they were. In modern society, we call that criminal negligence and it's a punishable offense. If humans can recongize such an action as immoral as sitting back and allowing bad things to happen when you could have stopped it, then why can't God? Doesn't God command Christians to help people if they know they're hurting? Isn't that the whole point of the story of the Good Samaritan? When God sits back and allows people to suffer, would you say God is being a Good Samaritan or is God a Pharisee? Or was God not strong enough to find a way to stop the evil actions from occurring, then God is not all-powerful, thus the bible lied and God is not all-loving, all-knowing, or all-powerful.

 

I said that He does not guide (meaning in the same manner) nations today that way He did Israel. I was responding to a post about whether I thought a theocracy was a good idea. Good quote. I agree. His law has not and will not pass away, and Jesus fulfilled it.

But if the Old Law has not passed away and Christians are still bound by it, then that means God still intends Christians to guide nations in the same manner as he did with Israel since the way God guided the nation of Israel was through the Old Law. And you're still igorning what Jesus said. Nowhere in the bible does Jesus say that he fulfilled the Old Law. He said that the Old Law would not be fulfilled until heaven and Earth passed away. Heaven and Earth haven't passed away, so the Old Law has not been fulfilled yet. It says so clearly in the verse I quoted.

[whereelse]

I do not think that most of you who have been responding to me have different morals. I do think however that our basis and motivation for following our common morals are different. I know that most christians, atheists, and non-christians have a common set of morals.

Very well. Then let's talk about that. How do you see the basis and motivation for following these morals to be different? What do you see as that basis, say for me, to be to following these morals? I'm curious to see what you perceive those reasons to be, as understanding is often gained through seeing how others perceive you and the basis for that. It may prove to be interesting to you as well to hear how I perceive myself in this as well. Understanding is a two way street, but I'd like to hear your perception first.

 

I would not consider myself a conservative republican, but that can be a later discussion. Please do not assume that I am a typical 'christian conservative republican' that thinks that conservative equals christian.

Very well, I won't make any assumptions. Do you feel that Christians can have socially liberal views, such as differences in opinion on say, the pro-life/pro-choice issue? (not wishing at all to talk about that issue directly, but as a point of understanding how you perceive what it means to be a Christian in your association with Christianity).

 

I responded to your question. Unless I've missed it I have not seen your response to my comments. Is my perception accurate at all.

Also what do you think my true motivation for living is? Hope to hear from you

[MathGeek]

To continue to assume that everyone who says I am a christian or every nation that says it is christian is a building a straw man. It is coming up with terrible examples to stand in for real christians. I am not here defending everything that has the tag christian.

 

I disagree, because many Christians believe we live in a secular theocracy already. They perceive their rights have been violated because prior to 1962, you could pray in schools and nobody complained about it (supposedly). Christianity supposedly had this perfect ideal society before the heathen Madelyn Murray O'Hair ruined it for everybody else.

 

Some say this atheistic, secular degradation to society has occurred thanks to the university system. True, it is a secular institution. False assertion if you think many college students lose their faith because of some atheistic, secularist, socialistic cabal deems it so. In fact, college campuses are very open to Christian activities, Christian organizations and Christian preachers routinely speak there despite how they can be viciously attacked. Just ask Brother Smock and Brother Birdsong.

 

Even further, Christian colleges are there to ensure that students are taught a biblical worldview. If a student can't afford tuition, they can take out loans or apply for grants and scholarships. From what I have read, they can get a first-rate education to boot.

 

I don't personally believe there is any threat to Christianity in the USA. Just because school prayer isn't allowed anymore and intelligent design isn't allowed in SOME districts doesn't mean that Christians are unwelcome in the town square. I have Christian preachers preach to their heart's content on both college campuses and on street corners and for the most part, they are LEFT ALONE.

 

Christians have much freedom and they think they are persecuted. That is a blatant lie and deep down they know it.

[Antlerman]

I do not think that most of you who have been responding to me have different morals. I do think however that our basis and motivation for following our common morals are different. I know that most christians, atheists, and non-christians have a common set of morals.

Very well. Then let's talk about that. How do you see the basis and motivation for following these morals to be different? What do you see as that basis, say for me, to be to following these morals? I'm curious to see what you perceive those reasons to be, as understanding is often gained through seeing how others perceive you and the basis for that. It may prove to be interesting to you as well to hear how I perceive myself in this as well. Understanding is a two way street, but I'd like to hear your perception first.

 

I would not consider myself a conservative republican, but that can be a later discussion. Please do not assume that I am a typical 'christian conservative republican' that thinks that conservative equals christian.

Very well, I won't make any assumptions. Do you feel that Christians can have socially liberal views, such as differences in opinion on say, the pro-life/pro-choice issue? (not wishing at all to talk about that issue directly, but as a point of understanding how you perceive what it means to be a Christian in your association with Christianity).

 

I responded to your question. Unless I've missed it I have not seen your response to my comments. Is my perception accurate at all.

Also what do you think my true motivation for living is? Hope to hear from you

oops. sorry missed getting back to this. I just responded to you in the other thread on something (meaning of life for atheists). I'll try to come back to this later on today perhaps...

[Neo-skeptic]

To continue to assume that everyone who says I am a christian or every nation that says it is christian is a building a straw man. It is coming up with terrible examples to stand in for real christians. I am not here defending everything that has the tag christian.

 

I disagree, because many Christians believe we live in a secular theocracy already. They perceive their rights have been violated because prior to 1962, you could pray in schools and nobody complained about it (supposedly). Christianity supposedly had this perfect ideal society before the heathen Madelyn Murray O'Hair ruined it for everybody else.

 

Some say this atheistic, secular degradation to society has occurred thanks to the university system. True, it is a secular institution. False assertion if you think many college students lose their faith because of some atheistic, secularist, socialistic cabal deems it so. In fact, college campuses are very open to Christian activities, Christian organizations and Christian preachers routinely speak there despite how they can be viciously attacked. Just ask Brother Smock and Brother Birdsong.

 

Even further, Christian colleges are there to ensure that students are taught a biblical worldview. If a student can't afford tuition, they can take out loans or apply for grants and scholarships. From what I have read, they can get a first-rate education to boot.

 

I don't personally believe there is any threat to Christianity in the USA. Just because school prayer isn't allowed anymore and intelligent design isn't allowed in SOME districts doesn't mean that Christians are unwelcome in the town square. I have Christian preachers preach to their heart's content on both college campuses and on street corners and for the most part, they are LEFT ALONE.

 

Christians have much freedom and they think they are persecuted. That is a blatant lie and deep down they know it.

 

I wholeheartedly agree with you, MathGeek. When I was a fundie, I loved crying foul whenever I felt our beloved Christianity was being "infringed upon" by the "evil secularist agenda". As I mellowed more, I would roll my eyes when someone started spouting along that line, and now that I'm in my deprogramming stages, I have to stop and clench my fist to keep from losing my cool.

 

At least now I can get in on this "secularist agenda"... ;-)

 

Seriously, Christians (of multiple denominations) have *way* more privilege than they like to admit. Methinks they don't like sharing the stage.