Heaven, Hell... And The "christian" Label

[Guest Wolf in the Light]

Picture an alcoholic and a womanizer... he walks the streets, prowling, in search of his next fix. First must come the bottle. He craves the taste of the alcohol on his lips, the sweet relief it offers. It is his escape from a pursuit of a life he cannot attain. And when he finally reaches his destination to take that drink, his body becomes bliss... his muscles relax, his mind relaxes, and the anxieties melt away. And then he moves on to his next craving... the one between his legs. He's throbbing, hard, and pulled so strongly to the sweet savours of a woman. He can picture her... she's soft, inviting, and delicious in every way. And he knows from the moment he enters into her, that the ecstasy will fulfill him. The pleasure will override any pain he's ever had and he'll drown in that pleasure up until the intense and final moment of orgasm where his body will be in perfected physical bliss.

 

Now, picture this man at his death... his body has passed from this earth, but his soul lingers. His soul "remembers" the pleasures he once knew in life...the sweet taste of sexual desire and the mind-freeing sanctuary of the next drink. And his soul desires them deeply... his soul still seeks for the joy that he found in them in life... but his body is no longer. He's no longer able to fulfill those desires without the body he had in life. So he craves those desires with such intensity, such burning intensity, but he can never be satisfied. All he knew of joy in life was the joy of the body... the joy of something temporary. And now in death, he shall crave, until the point of madness, that which he may never have again.

 

Next, picture a woman, and a successful attorney. She wakes early in the morning before 6AM to review her case files. She must be in court in just over 3 hours and she knows what's on the line. All the children of the victims suffering from big corporation negligence and it's up to her to set things right. She has to make sure that other children never have to endure what these children have endured. She's been working for months on this case, sifting through files, and turning on her lamps as the sun would set so she could continue to work. She never lost her mind's picture of the victims and their children. She never forgot the pain on their faces. And when the court delivers its final verdict and she sees the joy on the faces of the victims, she'll have joy, too. Her heart will rush like a fountain and she'll know that all her hard work was worth it... that all those people who endured so much will finally have a little relief and a little justice... and that she was a part of it all. Those people will come and thank her and tell her how much she meant to them. Some of them she'll even stay friends with for life.

 

Now, picture this woman at her death... her soul still lingers, full of love and joy at all the bonds and friendships she made through her life. Her body which was her source of weariness and tiredness has now left her... she made it her slave in life so she could do good. And now she is free from it once and for all. All that is left is unfading joy. Her joy will not fade because it was built on eternal things... it was built on helping others and the love and laughter in her soul will never stop.

 

Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life." He meant that living life as he lived, in service of others, denying himself indulgence in earthly pleasure, was the gate to the true life of the soul. He meant for us to live our lives as he did... that is the true way. Chanting the magic chant/sinner's prayer that they teach you in church is bullshit. The real point of forgiveness isn't to pay a ledger balance... its point is so that you can believe you're loved. The whole point of the cross... the magic and beauty behind the pain and suffering, is so that we can believe we're loved. Because people that believe they are truly loved are capable of great things.

 

Saying you're a Christian or not a Christian means little or nothing. Those are just labels and you can stick a label on any can of shit you want. It's what's inside the can that really counts.

 

To truly believe in Jesus doesn't mean to believe, "Jesus came to earth and died for my sins yada yada yada." To truly believe means to believe in the *way* he lived his life... it means to desire in your heart to live your own life in such a way. If all you want to do is attend church on Sundays and yack with people, have pointless boring religious debates on big religious words like sanctification, or watch the game afterwards and have a few beers, then you'll never know Jesus. Knowing Jesus means to take your happy ass out of your comfort zone, stop worrying about all your fuckin problems, and go try with everything you can to give a shit about someone else. The beauty and magic of a selfless life is that when you live for others, by sheer design of the soul, you automatically have joy for yourself. When you stop worrying about you, then the "you" is already taken care of.

 

I really hate to bring up this painful subject here, BUT... all that pain a lot of people suffered from believing in hell and eternal punishment... do you realize where that came from? It comes from being selfish... from people spending too much time worrying about themselves. They listened to preachers and church folk because they wanted to know what's gonna happen to "me". They didn't go to God because they really wanted truth at whatever cost... they didn't go to God because they truly wanted to know Him. They went because they were hoping to save their own ass from hell. That's about equivalent to getting married to a rich person for money so you can pay off your bookie. Not a whole lotta real love goin on there.

 

But hey... there's good news. God ain't vindictive, he doesn't give a shit about the past, and the truth is he would LOVE for you to know him no matter what you've done. Guilt is a fuckin lie! Guilt is some shit to keep you trapped in the past when you should be moving forward. So quit listening to all the bullshit rules from the modern day pharisees, don't listen to the spiritual quacks with magic crystals, for heaven's sake don't listen to those circular numbnuts that are forever lost in vain philosophical debates that have as much chance of getting somewhere as a 600lb person has a chance of doing a 360 on a skateboard, quit wondering if you committed the unforgivable sin (no you didn't... now shut up and let's get with the program)... forget all that. I tell you what you listen to... listen to some motherfucking common sense and get to know the real LIVING God!

 

That's the end of my sermon. Amen and stuff.

 

Oh, and I love all of you and I truly hope you all find real joy and happiness in this life. I just bark loud... that's all.

[MathGeek]

Picture an alcoholic and a womanizer... he walks the streets, prowling, in search of his next fix. First must come the bottle. He craves the taste of the alcohol on his lips, the sweet relief it offers. It is his escape from a pursuit of a life he cannot attain. And when he finally reaches his destination to take that drink, his body becomes bliss... his muscles relax, his mind relaxes, and the anxieties melt away. And then he moves on to his next craving... the one between his legs. He's throbbing, hard, and pulled so strongly to the sweet savours of a woman. He can picture her... she's soft, inviting, and delicious in every way. And he knows from the moment he enters into her, that the ecstasy will fulfill him. The pleasure will override any pain he's ever had and he'll drown in that pleasure up until the intense and final moment of orgasm where his body will be in perfected physical bliss.

 

Now, picture this man at his death... his body has passed from this earth, but his soul lingers. His soul "remembers" the pleasures he once knew in life...the sweet taste of sexual desire and the mind-freeing sanctuary of the next drink. And his soul desires them deeply... his soul still seeks for the joy that he found in them in life... but his body is no longer. He's no longer able to fulfill those desires without the body he had in life. So he craves those desires with such intensity, such burning intensity, but he can never be satisfied. All he knew of joy in life was the joy of the body... the joy of something temporary. And now in death, he shall crave, until the point of madness, that which he may never have again.

 

Next, picture a woman, and a successful attorney. She wakes early in the morning before 6AM to review her case files. She must be in court in just over 3 hours and she knows what's on the line. All the children of the victims suffering from big corporation negligence and it's up to her to set things right. She has to make sure that other children never have to endure what these children have endured. She's been working for months on this case, sifting through files, and turning on her lamps as the sun would set so she could continue to work. She never lost her mind's picture of the victims and their children. She never forgot the pain on their faces. And when the court delivers its final verdict and she sees the joy on the faces of the victims, she'll have joy, too. Her heart will rush like a fountain and she'll know that all her hard work was worth it... that all those people who endured so much will finally have a little relief and a little justice... and that she was a part of it all. Those people will come and thank her and tell her how much she meant to them. Some of them she'll even stay friends with for life.

 

Now, picture this woman at her death... her soul still lingers, full of love and joy at all the bonds and friendships she made through her life. Her body which was her source of weariness and tiredness has now left her... she made it her slave in life so she could do good. And now she is free from it once and for all. All that is left is unfading joy. Her joy will not fade because it was built on eternal things... it was built on helping others and the love and laughter in her soul will never stop.

 

Your ability to pen a gender-equal guilt trip is far and above better than anything else I could ever come up with. So, people die and they miss out on many things and they have eternal regret for it. So what? That's tough shit and they die anyway. It is only my joys and regrets that merit consideration on my deathbed.

 

Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life." He meant that living life as he lived, in service of others, denying himself indulgence in earthly pleasure, was the gate to the true life of the soul. He meant for us to live our lives as he did... that is the true way. Chanting the magic chant/sinner's prayer that they teach you in church is bullshit. The real point of forgiveness isn't to pay a ledger balance... its point is so that you can believe you're loved. The whole point of the cross... the magic and beauty behind the pain and suffering, is so that we can believe we're loved. Because people that believe they are truly loved are capable of great things.

 

Saying you're a Christian or not a Christian means little or nothing. Those are just labels and you can stick a label on any can of shit you want. It's what's inside the can that really counts.

 

Yeah, we call them people. The best kind of people are the ones who complete those selfless actions that and DON'T need to bring their religion into it. Why do Christians need to keep bringing up being selfless as being one of the fruits of Christianity when it is truly independent of what they believe?

 

To truly believe in Jesus doesn't mean to believe, "Jesus came to earth and died for my sins yada yada yada." To truly believe means to believe in the *way* he lived his life... it means to desire in your heart to live your own life in such a way. If all you want to do is attend church on Sundays and yack with people, have pointless boring religious debates on big religious words like sanctification, or watch the game afterwards and have a few beers, then you'll never know Jesus. Knowing Jesus means to take your happy ass out of your comfort zone, stop worrying about all your fuckin problems, and go try with everything you can to give a shit about someone else. The beauty and magic of a selfless life is that when you live for others, by sheer design of the soul, you automatically have joy for yourself. When you stop worrying about you, then the "you" is already taken care of.

 

Many of us tried that and it didn't work. Some of us, like me, went along for the ride and weren't to impressed by it and gave the hell up. There were more devout people out there than I who came to disbelief and they were closer to God than I ever us. To accuse them of not going outside their comfort zone is bordering on ad-hominem, brother. You seriously need to rethink what was written in that paragraph.

 

I really hate to bring up this painful subject here, BUT... all that pain a lot of people suffered from believing in hell and eternal punishment... do you realize where that came from? It comes from being selfish... from people spending too much time worrying about themselves. They listened to preachers and church folk because they wanted to know what's gonna happen to "me". They didn't go to God because they really wanted truth at whatever cost... they didn't go to God because they truly wanted to know Him. They went because they were hoping to save their own ass from hell. That's about equivalent to getting married to a rich person for money so you can pay off your bookie. Not a whole lotta real love goin on there.

 

Great reasoning, but it is your leadership that wants to spread the message far and wide and fear is still the best way to do it. Amp up the fear and amp up the pain and you can do anything you want. Last I checked, Christianity is one of the most duplicitous, two-faced religions on earth. No matter how you slice it, everything you choose to do comes back to you and you alone. This is not-so-great reasoning now that I think of it.

 

But hey... there's good news. God ain't vindictive, he doesn't give a shit about the past, and the truth is he would LOVE for you to know him no matter what you've done. Guilt is a fuckin lie! Guilt is some shit to keep you trapped in the past when you should be moving forward. So quit listening to all the bullshit rules from the modern day pharisees, don't listen to the spiritual quacks with magic crystals, for heaven's sake don't listen to those circular numbnuts that are forever lost in vain philosophical debates that have as much chance of getting somewhere as a 600lb person has a chance of doing a 360 on a skateboard, quit wondering if you committed the unforgivable sin (no you didn't... now shut up and let's get with the program)... forget all that. I tell you what you listen to... listen to some motherfucking common sense and get to know the real LIVING God!

 

Same typical shit. You won't win any converts here and your moniker, while poetically creative, hides nothing. The more salted, experienced ex-C'ers can eat you for lunch now.

 

That's the end of my sermon. Amen and stuff.

 

Oh, and I love all of you and I truly hope you all find real joy and happiness in this life. I just bark loud... that's all.

 

As I said before, you have a top-shelf writing ability, far better than mine in fact. How you have applied it, brother sheepskin, is what will get you shot up by our expert hunters.

 

Go forthwith, Brother Wolf, back preaching to the choir you came from.

[Deva]

Let me get this straight - we don't have the true version of Christianity (or Jesus) and if we accept your version, everything will all be better, right?

 

So you believe in Jesus and know Jesus. If doing that helps you to live an unselfish life, more power to you, but if it doesn't have the same effect on us, you ought not to judge.

 

This is just another interpretation of how "Jesus Saves". I found it to be quite offensive.

 

Wolf - please take Jesus and go elsewhere- we have had enough sermons.

[SWIM]

Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life." He meant that living life as he lived, in service of others, denying himself indulgence in earthly pleasure, was the gate to the true life of the soul. He meant for us to live our lives as he did... that is the true way. Chanting the magic chant/sinner's prayer that they teach you in church is bullshit. The real point of forgiveness isn't to pay a ledger balance... its point is so that you can believe you're loved. The whole point of the cross... the magic and beauty behind the pain and suffering, is so that we can believe we're loved. Because people that believe they are truly loved are capable of great things.

 

Well first off, we have no idea what "jesus said" since he didn't write down anything, and there are 4 varied accounts of what he supposedly said.

 

And we are supposed to live like him? Hmm ok then, I will tell everyone to quite their jobs, screw it all, come follow me around and listen to my crapola all day, listen to me brag about how spiritual I am.... Then get all angry at a bake sale in front of a church...

 

Tell everyone you came not to bring peace but division, oh, and tell em all they gotta talk to you before god will hear em... Yeah, lets all live like jesus and just screw the world up even more...

 

Maybe in the above scenarios, they just died and were dead, the "hell" they experienced was of their own creation, and, since they ceased to exist at death, well, they were in hell for "all eternity" from their finite perspective... Maybe had they not been on a guilt trip, and lived their lives a wee bit more honorably, they might have been in a sort of "heaven" till they winked out at death... I get the feeling heaven, hell and all points in between is a state of mind, its not somewhere you "go" it's somewhere you "are". No god required...

 

BTW "IF" you wrote the above and not pasted it, very nice writing skills btw. So your post wasn't, at least, a total failure after all.

[Japedo]

Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life." He meant that living life as he lived, in service of others, denying himself indulgence in earthly pleasure, was the gate to the true life of the soul. He meant for us to live our lives as he did... that is the true way. Chanting the magic chant/sinner's prayer that they teach you in church is bullshit. The real point of forgiveness isn't to pay a ledger balance... its point is so that you can believe you're loved. The whole point of the cross... the magic and beauty behind the pain and suffering, is so that we can believe we're loved. Because people that believe they are truly loved are capable of great things.

 

Saying you're a Christian or not a Christian means little or nothing. Those are just labels and you can stick a label on any can of shit you want. It's what's inside the can that really counts.

 

But hey... there's good news. God ain't vindictive, he doesn't give a shit about the past, and the truth is he would LOVE for you to know him no matter what you've done. Guilt is a fuckin lie! Guilt is some shit to keep you trapped in the past when you should be moving forward. So quit listening to all the bullshit rules from the modern day pharisees, don't listen to the spiritual quacks with magic crystals, for heaven's sake don't listen to those circular numbnuts that are forever lost in vain philosophical debates that have as much chance of getting somewhere as a 600lb person has a chance of doing a 360 on a skateboard, quit wondering if you committed the unforgivable sin (no you didn't... now shut up and let's get with the program)... forget all that. I tell you what you listen to... listen to some motherfucking common sense and get to know the real LIVING God!

 

That's the end of my sermon. Amen and stuff.

 

Just because you talk real loud with expletives and ignore half the buybull doesn't mean there's a one true god. How about backing up some of your sermon with facts? I'm not an ex Christian due to Guilt, I'm an ex Christian due to the dogma being a lie. Due to gods not really existing.

 

Do you honestly believe when we were all Christians we didn't all strive to walk that fine line of trying to be perfect? Get real, shows just how out of tune you are with why we left the bs dogma behind. Cherry pick the buybull all you wish, Swear all you wish to make it appear you're more like the "worldly sinners you seek to save" The new Hip witnessing tactic falls flat just FYI. I give you a half of star out of 5 stars. Something about you rings Kirk Cameron to me, seems a little to desperate and audacious.

 

You are pretty presumptuous to think none of us give of ourselves to others, None of us are humanitarians, or think of others. We are all greedy godless selfish assholes. I also can't stand your far off base illustrations, I don't know of many druggies or selfish people that post at this website. Your Christ is one the one who advocates living by the sword. And hating your family (Luke 14:25) Seems to me Christs own words aren't in sync with your teachings here, False Prophet perhaps, misguided? Not everyone gets justice, no matter how hard they work for it. Your black and white world is not based in reality.

 

Your huge presumption is a sign of your outrageous arrogance. Do you honestly think Christians are the only people on the planet that give? We only have one life, for you to come here and tell people to live it depriving themselves of it, shows just how selfish YOU are. How about you get off your high horse and get to know us before shoveling bullshit at us? What part of EX do you not grasp about the title of this website? Many here are scholars, Many are former pastors and Missionary's. This OP makes you come across as a compleat asshat. If you want to go witness, do so where no one will challenge you on this dogma. Give us proof JC is one of 3 of a real God. Give us proof your rantings in your OP are more then hot air. Welcome to Ex-C, but I doubt you'll be staying here long as you'll be strongly challenged, you won't know the answers and leave like the rest of your ilk who attempt to win souls for Christ here.

[Guest Wolf in the Light]

Hey, wow... lots of great replies here. Love the Kirk Cameron comment... I actually use to have a big crush on his sister growing up. And I thought he was great on Growing Pains.

 

OK, so I guess some clarity for my stance. First, I'm definitely not out to win converts. I don't want to convert anyone here to anything. Just like you, I want to share my views, my perspectives, etc. I'm not telling you any bullshit like believe in God or go to hell. I don't believe in hell like most of the church does... nor heaven for that matter either. That's why I painted the picture of the man and woman, the lives they led, and their respective spiritual misery and joy. You'll note that neither of those accounts had any mention of God, Jesus, or religious culture in them. Please note that... it's very important so you don't misinterpret my beliefs.

 

I never assumed that none of you gave of yourself to others.... not in the least. There definitely was a presumption in my soliloquy, but it was mainly against most modern Christians. They chant the chant, go to church, and never really care about anyone else. Moreover, I wanted to state that if you do care about others, if you do give of yourself, then it doesn't matter what label you call yourself... Christian, Muslim, etc. I don't for a second buy that Gandhi went to hell or any such nonsense like that. BTW, I highly recommend the Gandhi movie with Ben Kingsley if you haven't seen it... great film.

 

So the Bible... great book. Love it. Is it God's word? Hell, no. But yeah... I do believe in Jesus and God. Why do I believe in God? Because I have hardcore evidence. I'm here and so is the rest of creation. A couple of times in my life, I've come across a Lamborghini in a parking lot. That's true. Now, I could have believed that maybe just possibly given the 1/100000000000000000000000000000000000000000 (prolly need more zeros) that it just happened to assemble itself by random chance... maybe a tornado or who knows what. But common sense told me a being of intelligence designed it and built. For me, it's the same with the human body and with the universe. It runs with such amazing efficiency, clockwork perfection, and grace. If I believe that Lamborghini didn't appear by accident, then I have to believe the same of myself.

 

Now, do I think you need to believe that God exists to have a happy eternity? Beats me. Maybe just being kind to others, loving as best you can is all it takes. I'll give it six one way, half a dozen the other. I would never tell you that you should believe exactly as I believe or see the world and life the way I do to find happiness. Just like you, I'm fumbling around searching for answers to lots of questions. But there are certain absolute truths that I think we should all believe... and I think most if not everyone hear does believe those things already... and those are that loving each other and caring for each other are integral to a happy life.

 

Peace, love

The Wolf

 

P.S. Yes, I wrote everything... I enjoy writing and thanks for the compliments.

[MathGeek]

Wolf, do you fancy yourself as an apologist with a rhetorical switchblade or what? If you trying to be the "Warren Zevon" of all apologists, then sir, you are failing miserably. I can see you have a wicked sense of humor with your Lambo comment. Yet, I love how you openly contradict yourself by saying that you love Jesus but you don't believe the Bible to be his inspired Word. Hello, care for a lesson on clarity? Either you are a satirist or a true believer that is so mentally numb that you would still be alive after the cord was yanked from the wall socket. I am in awe at how flagrant you are, throwing around your cherished beliefs like a carton of eggs. Either you are the Warren Zevon of the apologist racket or you have the common sense of a cinder block.

 

Again, very poetic name even though we can see you through the sheepskin camoflauge.

[florduh]

Excellent prose (except for the word "prolly").

 

Your logic is flawed, however.

 

Stick around and learn a little. Develop some reasons for belief other than the parking lot scenario. Establish that there was actually a Jesus, that you know what he said, and why that makes sense.

 

Prepare for battle . . .

[Guest Wolf in the Light]

Yeah, I do love Jesus... but the bible is just a book. That's my take on it. I don't feel that's a contradiction at all. I mean, who ever said the bible was God's word? As best I can remember, I've only heard that shit in church. Jesus never talked about the bible...there was no bible when he was alive.

[Guest Wolf in the Light]

P.S.

 

I should also add that I don't really know a whole lot of religious words. No idea what an apologist is and the only thing I know about Warren Zevon is he sang Werewolves in London which I happen to have in my itunes. Love that song... ranks right up there with Wesley Willis's I'm Sorry That I Got Fat.

[Japedo]

I never assumed that none of you gave of yourself to others.... not in the least. There definitely was a presumption in my soliloquy, but it was mainly against most modern Christians. They chant the chant, go to church, and never really care about anyone else. Moreover, I wanted to state that if you do care about others, if you do give of yourself, then it doesn't matter what label you call yourself... Christian, Muslim, etc. I don't for a second buy that Gandhi went to hell or any such nonsense like that. BTW, I highly recommend the Gandhi movie with Ben Kingsley if you haven't seen it... great film.

 

So the Bible... great book. Love it. Is it God's word? Hell, no. But yeah... I do believe in Jesus and God. Why do I believe in God? Because I have hardcore evidence. I'm here and so is the rest of creation. A couple of times in my life, I've come across a Lamborghini in a parking lot. That's true. Now, I could have believed that maybe just possibly given the 1/100000000000000000000000000000000000000000 (prolly need more zeros) that it just happened to assemble itself by random chance...

 

Now, do I think you need to believe that God exists to have a happy eternity? Beats me. Maybe just being kind to others, loving as best you can is all it takes. I'll give it six one way, half a dozen the other. I would never tell you that you should believe exactly as I believe or see the world and life the way I do to find happiness. Just like you, I'm fumbling around searching for answers to lots of questions. But there are certain absolute truths that I think we should all believe... and I think most if not everyone hear does believe those things already... and those are that loving each other and caring for each other are integral to a happy life.

 

Wolf,

 

Frankly you're so full of contradictions that it's hard to pinpoint where exactly you stand.

 

First.. In the OP you stated:

Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life." He meant that living life as he lived, in service of others, denying himself indulgence in earthly pleasure, was the gate to the true life of the soul. He meant for us to live our lives as he did... that is the true way.

 

If you don't believe in the bible, then how do you know anything about Christ or what he supposedly said? How do you know Christ said that quote above at all if you don't believe in the word itself? Where are you getting your direction in your 'walk', if not from the buybull?

 

On another note, You do an awfully lot of broad brushing with all groups. With the Christians as well as the Non-Christian, you set yourself up to lose any argument right off the bat in doing that. No one fits into a box, Not a belief, nor non-belief.

 

Looking for answers is wonderful, it should be something everyone does for the rest of their life!! In a sense you are posting half your post as if you've already found the answers, which is yet another contradiction.

 

 

As far as the car analogy goes,

If nothing can just exist, then who created God(s)?

[MathGeek]

Here it is folks. The empty can...here for your listening and viewing torture. Please feel me to use the duct tape and plastic bag located under your chair for quick suicidal convenience. Thank you and have a pleasant afterlife.

[Japedo]

he sang Werewolves in London which I happen to have in my itunes. Love that song... ranks right up there with Wesley Willis's I'm Sorry That I Got Fat.

 

If you love Wearwolves of London you may love this rendition of it by MantraII, It's my favorite remake of the song.

 

MantraII Myspace Music page <-- Link

[Japedo]

Here it is folks. The empty can...here for your listening and viewing torture. Please feel me to use the duct tape and plastic bag located under your chair for quick suicidal convenience. Thank you and have a pleasant afterlife.

 

 

:lol2:

[Guest Wolf in the Light]

I believe the bible has some true accounts... but like any book, it'll have some errors and contradictions. I don't read it like a math book. I read the account of Jesus's life, I said to myself, "Yeah, I think that's how God would act if he were human" and so I chose to believe it. I'm not really sure it can be rationalized... probably can't. But I can tell ya this... I haven't been a church in a long time and I don't believe what I believe because of anything a pastor or group of christians told me.

 

I tend to think anything in life takes some level of faith. Even math for the MathGeek. No matter what you prove, you had to build it on axioms you must simply accept. Why do you believe those axioms? Well, they look about right to you... they make sense to you. So hell... go with it. I'll take my belief in God and Jesus as my axioms. What I build with them is my own and not from any modern day religious structure.

[MathGeek]

I believe the bible has some true accounts... but like any book, it'll have some errors and contradictions. I don't read it like a math book. I read the account of Jesus's life, I said to myself, "Yeah, I think that's how God would act if he were human" and so I chose to believe it. I'm not really sure it can be rationalized... probably can't. But I can tell ya this... I haven't been a church in a long time and I don't believe what I believe because of anything a pastor or group of christians told me.

 

I tend to think anything in life takes some level of faith. Even math for the MathGeek. No matter what you prove, you had to build it on axioms you must simply accept. Why do you believe those axioms? Well, they look about right to you... they make sense to you. So hell... go with it. I'll take my belief in God and Jesus as my axioms. What I build with them is my own and not from any modern day religious structure.

 

Okay, so you probably understand why in my "any gods" questions I say: any number divided by 0 as an axiom. Clearly, you have the intellect to know you believe what you believe. I am not faulting you on that and I wholly understand your reasoning. Plus, I'm willing to bet you've read some philosophy during your lifespan, probably some Descartes, Kierkegaard, Dostoevsky, and Sartre and you have likely come to a rather realistic conclusion about how Christianity really is then on the human experiment.

 

My problem has nothing to do with that.

 

My problems stems from the fact that you have a website that says "EX-CHRISTIAN" on it as plain as a wacky, neon cartoon sign that says "Gangster Hideout" and you start speaking about your love for Jesus. Bud, that makes you an apologist! Somebody who starts preaching to the lost when the lost doesn't want to hear the message is called an apologist. This is why I have been poking my vocal rapier at you, but not with hard stabs but hard enough to draw blood. Be forewarned, you will be labeled a squid as soon as one of the moderators decides to deem you worthy of his or her time. I am not trying to be mean but your anti-church, anti-congregation stance won't serve you here at all. You are a sheep, you are a dyed-in-the-wool Christian and if anything, we give apologists a raking across the embers they'll never forget.

 

Just remember: you've been more than fairly warned.

[Guest]

I do believe in Jesus and God. Why do I believe in God? Because I have hardcore evidence.

 

You do? GREAT! I've been searching for a long time! Please present this evidence.

 

I'm here and so is the rest of creation. A couple of times in my life, I've come across a Lamborghini in a parking lot. That's true. Now, I could have believed that maybe just possibly given the 1/100000000000000000000000000000000000000000 (prolly need more zeros) that it just happened to assemble itself by random chance... maybe a tornado or who knows what. But common sense told me a being of intelligence designed it and built. For me, it's the same with the human body and with the universe. It runs with such amazing efficiency, clockwork perfection, and grace. If I believe that Lamborghini didn't appear by accident, then I have to believe the same of myself.

 

Um...that is not even evidence, let alone "hard core". That wasn't cool man, you got me excited for nothing.

 

P.S. Yes, I wrote everything... I enjoy writing and thanks for the compliments.

 

You do write well, too bad your guilt trip was based on the existence of a soul, which we are fast learning does not exist. Maybe if you wrote about things that existed it would be a better use of your talents.

[Guest]

I believe the bible has some true accounts... but like any book, it'll have some errors and contradictions. I don't read it like a math book. I read the account of Jesus's life, I said to myself, "Yeah, I think that's how God would act if he were human" and so I chose to believe it.

 

So you believe that if god encountered a sick slave, he would heal the slave so he could continue to be a slave, rather than tell the crowd that slavery is wrong?

 

Luke 7

[Japedo]

I believe the bible has some true accounts... but like any book, it'll have some errors and contradictions. I don't read it like a math book. I read the account of Jesus's life,

 

Cherry Picking is what it's called. How do you tell the errors from the truth?

[Guest Wolf in the Light]

My problem has nothing to do with that. My problems stems from the fact that you have a website that says "EX-CHRISTIAN" on it as plain as a wacky, neon cartoon sign that says "Gangster Hideout" and you start speaking about your love for Jesus.

 

 

Yeah, that's a really good point right there. I didn't really expect a warm welcome, but I'm fascinated by all sort of people and I like learning why they believe what they believe. I was reading in another thread about how most christians are too afraid to think critically about anything. I agree with that which is why I like reading on other religions, talking to people of different faiths. As far as I'm concerned, an untested faith isn't worth anything. If I have to close my eyes and ears to the rest of the world to hold onto my belief, then my belief is nothing but an empty shell. So I end up in forums like this one getting my ass handed to me. Hey, it's cool with me... I've always found the best way to learn or experience most things is just to jump right in and get your hands dirty. Thankfully, you're a math person and you'll actually understand the *most* quantifier (In all arguments or discussions I've ever had, the truly frustrating ones are those with people that don't understand quantifiers).

 

Cheers,

Wolf

[MathGeek]

Thankfully, you're a math person and you'll actually understand the *most* quantifier (In all arguments or discussions I've ever had, the truly frustrating ones are those with people that don't understand quantifiers).

 

I've studied algebra and calculus. I actually teach it for a living, so I understand 'most'. Plus, another thing you need to drop is your pretentious attitude. There are plenty of folks here who can destroy any argument you bring forth with ease. Don't underestimate ANYBODY here because you can get banned quicker than a gay atheist from an Independent Baptist church.

 

Let me illustrate it for you mathematically...

 

limit patience -> 0 f(Wolf's Antics) = ass getting tossed from ex-C

[Guest Wolf in the Light]

To everyone else,

 

Damn... this is too many brains against my one brain.

 

With some things in life, I've found arguments to become nothing but circular. I'm sure you've all experienced that arguing with christians on this site. You can tell after a while that the argument just isn't gonna get anywhere. Sometimes this is due to ignorance on the part of one side (usually the christian's unfortunately). But I think there are some things that never will be able to be argued perfectly with logic. I'll sometimes go through arguments with myself in my own mind... argue one side, then find all the holes in it and argue against it, and then back the other way ad infinitum.

 

People will pose me with questions, my mind will come up with an answer...but then my mind can find holes in my own answer. So I revise my answer, and find holes in that again, and so on. You might say, well why believe what you believe if you can find logical fallacies in what you believe? Well, because I've considered the other side, too... and I find logical fallacies there as well. I find them everywhere. And thus I must conclude that some things just can't be perfectly reasoned with logic.

 

In any case, it's been fun having my ass handed to me today, but I'm going to collect and run and try to get some work done. I really could spend way too much time on internet forums if I let myself.

 

Cheers,

Wolf

[MathGeek]

At least we understand each other. I don't think the message will sink in, though.

 

The stubborn among us, it will never happen.

[Guest]

People will pose me with questions, my mind will come up with an answer...but then my mind can find holes in my own answer. So I revise my answer, and find holes in that again, and so on. You might say, well why believe what you believe if you can find logical fallacies in what you believe? Well, because I've considered the other side, too... and I find logical fallacies there as well. I find them everywhere. And thus I must conclude that some things just can't be perfectly reasoned with logic.

 

 

"The important thing to remember is to never stop questioning" ~ Albert Einstein

 

I do the same thing you do. When I think I have an answer, I ask myself why that would be the correct one. It always gives me more to think about and ponder. I then revise my thoughts on said subject.

 

I think the reason you have trouble and are finding holes in your answers is because you don't realize that you are letting emotion into your reasoning. Some of your ideas, like that jesus existed, or is how god would act, is because you want things to be that way. It can be hard to stop this, but it is important to ask yourself if something makes sense because there is evidence (real evidence, not that crap I quoted from you before) for it, or because it "feels" right to you, or is something that would be "nice" if it is true.

 

I'll offer one more quote before I go:

 

"I don't want to believe, I want to know ~ Carl Sagan

[SWIM]

Why do I believe in God? Because I have hardcore evidence. I'm here and so is the rest of creation.

 

 

BTW chief, that's not "hardcore" evidence, in fact it's no evidence whatsoever.

 

Only the simple minded consider that evidence. There are sound scientific theories that better explain "creation" as you call it then a simple 12th century "god musta done it" mindset.