Heaven, Hell... And The "christian" Label

[Antlerman]

Hi. If I may?

 

Picture an alcoholic and a womanizer...

 

<snip>

 

Now, picture this man at his death... All he knew of joy in life was the joy of the body... the joy of something temporary. And now in death, he shall crave, until the point of madness, that which he may never have again.

This of course assumes you would have the same naturalistic cravings as a spirit being that you did as a biological being. An assumption that frankly isn't too logical if you think about it.

 

But the real point would be that IF he should look back over his life and care to see that it had some meaning, then he may see he has no lasting effect on the world he is leaving behind. That's a case of regret, in that case.

 

Next, picture a woman, and a successful attorney.

 

<snip>

 

Now, picture this woman at her death... her soul still lingers, full of love and joy at all the bonds and friendships she made through her life. Her body which was her source of weariness and tiredness has now left her... she made it her slave in life so she could do good. And now she is free from it once and for all. All that is left is unfading joy. Her joy will not fade because it was built on eternal things... it was built on helping others and the love and laughter in her soul will never stop.

Following suit with the logic of the first argument. This woman dying may look back at her life and find lasting value in having helped others, this gives her meaning. At the same token she may regret never having tasted a fine wine, gone to Paris in the Spring, or enjoyed the wonder and pleasure of her physical being that she could have. That's gone now, and she likewise may die with some regrets.

 

Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life." He meant that living life as he lived, in service of others, denying himself indulgence in earthly pleasure, was the gate to the true life of the soul.

I don't believe for one minute that denying your physical nature and it's pleasures is an act of spirituality, anymore than I believe that indulging your physical nature to the exclusion of your higher ideals is either. Being fully human, in all that we are is healthy. There is a difference between indulgence, and partaking in living. One is unhealthy, the other is healthy. A healthy heart and mind cannot be separated from the flesh. Harmony, not denial.

 

So you believe Jesus practiced strict denial of any and all pleasure? To serve others, you must first serve yourself.

 

He meant for us to live our lives as he did... that is the true way.

If that's the case, we have very little details about what that was. See, we already have a disagreement about the nature of what "denying yourself" means.

 

Chanting the magic chant/sinner's prayer that they teach you in church is bullshit. The real point of forgiveness isn't to pay a ledger balance... its point is so that you can believe you're loved.

I see the real point of forgiveness as to free your heart from guilt imposed on it from yourself through the eyes of the culture and religion of you social setting. Once your free in your 'spirit' you can let the happiness of joy of your humanity shine to others. That to me is what any message of forgiveness coming out of a religious/philosophical school of thought is about. Rather than some doctrinal "must do" sort of thing to get you to join the group and escape punishment. It's not about reconciliation with "God" it's about you reconciling yourself with yourself and through that - others.

 

I'm fairly convinced that the original Jesus movement was in fact anti-religious, for all intents and purposes. It's religion that lays all that guilt on people. Ironic how that that system itself became the very thing it was spawned to break.

 

 

Saying you're a Christian or not a Christian means little or nothing. Those are just labels and you can stick a label on any can of shit you want. It's what's inside the can that really counts.

Then are you saying that us as ExChristians is a good thing, if doing that is what has allowed us to become better and healthier human beings as a result? Are you willing to embrace us as 'on that path' regardless of our labels, whether it's atheist or some other form of religion or philosophy?

 

To truly believe in Jesus doesn't mean to believe, "Jesus came to earth and died for my sins yada yada yada." To truly believe means to believe in the *way* he lived his life... it means to desire in your heart to live your own life in such a way.

Is it possible with your definition to be "following Jesus" if we live in the ways you say, agree with the ideals of love, etc, without mentally adopting the specific symbols of that system in name or otherwise? In other words, a rose by any other name is still a rose? Do you judge by fruits, or by doctrines?

 

The beauty and magic of a selfless life is that when you live for others, by sheer design of the soul, you automatically have joy for yourself. When you stop worrying about you, then the "you" is already taken care of.

There is a truth to this, but again it comes following loving and taking care of yourself first, which includes the physical and emotional well being. To partake of pleasure, is part of doing this, then from that you are whole and healthy and able to move beyond yourself into the world and become a part of it.

 

I really hate to bring up this painful subject here, BUT... all that pain a lot of people suffered from believing in hell and eternal punishment... do you realize where that came from? It comes from being selfish... from people spending too much time worrying about themselves.

Well fear is a hell of thing to make one focus on themselves - whether they are selfless or not. That's the problem with modern American fundamentalist Christianity. It's all about focusing on the self: Your salvation, Your relationship with Jesus, Your blessings, You, you, you. It panders to the consumerist mentality of our culture. Quick, easy, satisfying. Me.

 

So it's little wonder that you have feelings of guilt and conflict when they tell you about your selfish nature. For crying out loud, it's what they subtly told you is a good thing because it's what they appealed to to sell you their religion!!

 

I tell you what you listen to... listen to some motherfucking common sense and get to know the real LIVING God!

 

That's the end of my sermon. Amen and stuff.

 

Oh, and I love all of you and I truly hope you all find real joy and happiness in this life. I just bark loud... that's all.

You are passionate, I'll grant you that. You also sound fairly reasonable, all in all. Just wondering how much of a hang up the label God, Jesus, Krishna, or what have you is to you? Do you care that the things you believe God is is what's getting served through whatever means, or do you feel it's necessary to see God symbolically the same way you do?

 

If someone asks me if I believe in God, I'll ask you to define what it represents. If I agree with those things, than you can say I believe in those things - if you call that God or not is unimportant to me. How about you?

[par4dcourse]

I have been following with awe the tactful, factual, and honest way you guys dealt with the OP. I'm learning. To all who have participated in this thread: BRAVO.

[Guest lenbitme]

Now, picture this man at his death... his body has passed from this earth, but his soul lingers. His soul "remembers" the pleasures he once knew in life...the sweet taste of sexual desire and the mind-freeing sanctuary of the next drink. And his soul desires them deeply... his soul still seeks for the joy that he found in them in life... but his body is no longer. He's no longer able to fulfill those desires without the body he had in life. So he craves those desires with such intensity, such burning intensity, but he can never be satisfied. All he knew of joy in life was the joy of the body... the joy of something temporary. And now in death, he shall crave, until the point of madness, that which he may never have again.

 

Now, picture this woman at her death... her soul still lingers, full of love and joy at all the bonds and friendships she made through her life. Her body which was her source of weariness and tiredness has now left her... she made it her slave in life so she could do good. And now she is free from it once and for all. All that is left is unfading joy. Her joy will not fade because it was built on eternal things... it was built on helping others and the love and laughter in her soul will never stop.

 

Here's the problem: REALITY. What do I mean by reality? Everyone does good things, and bad things. What you're painting here are two starkly different scenarios, both extreme to the point of being unrealistic. Was this drunk womanizer -always- bad? Weren't there positive things in his life he could take with him to the end that would counter his physical achings? Perhaps he was a wonderful father at one point in his life, or maybe he took compassion upon a needy person. And this successful woman; maybe she did drugs as an adolescent, or went to a drunken party, or slept with her boyfriend before they got married. My point is, you have an all evil man vs. an all perfect woman. Human lives are not as black and white as this. Today I may steal some kids lunch money, and tomorrow I might be a shoulder for my friend to cry on. So, when my "soul lives on" like you say it will, will I feel badly for stealing or fulfilled for having been a good friend? If your world existed, I would likely feel both. Your logic is terribly, terribly flawed.

[Guest Wolf in the Light]

Antlerman,

 

I guess it's like this... it doesn't matter what a person wants to call God... God, Allah, Amen Ra... they're just labels. But I do think it's important what that label represents. For me, knowing God is like knowing a person... you can not know them at all, you can be casually acquainted with them, you can be good friends with them, or you could go as far as to say they're your soulmate and you can complete each other's thoughts. There's infinitely many levels to knowing a person and I think it might be the same with God.

 

I don't subscribe to the "Believe in Jesus or go to hell" philosophy. It makes no sense to me. A loving God would not cast his creations into everlasting torment... that's silly. But I believe we were designed as eternal beings and we were meant to know God intimately. I think Jesus can play a role in that intimacy. Here's an analogy for God that comes to mind... Say you have a loving wife who lathers you with affection, creates beautiful things for you, and invites you to know her deeply. Say that one day you need a kidney transplant and the Doctor tells you they found a donor. The donor happens to be your wife, but you don't know this. How would your understanding of your wife's love for you change if you knew she gave you that kidney? You always knew she loved you beforehand... but might it not be deeper if you knew exactly to what level she was willing to sacrifice for you. I see Jesus as that sort of sacrifice... I believe it's possible to know God loves us without ever having heard of Jesus... but knowing that God would turn into flesh and suffer... well that just makes the love all the more deeper for me.

 

Now for hell... heaven and hell who really knows what their true nature is? I only have ideas. But one thing I do believe is that it's not God's jail where he could put us in or out at his wish. I actually believe it's something out of God's control. Here's why...

 

In order for love to be real, it must be chosen and given freely. Free will. So say an eternal being called man is made with an infinite depth of need in the soul for love and intimacy. If God is infinite, He has no choice but to make the depth of our desire infinite... else we can never fully know Him. And there is nothing else infinite that we may know... God is it and He has no choice in that. God guides us as much as He can to help us avoid the wrong choices, but in the end, it's out of His control. That's the price of true love... He had to give up control for the love to be real.

 

In another aspect, I believe God is like a parent... we have this spiritual world with many dangers by design... and it is designed the way it is because it must be designed that way. Truth only allows what truth obeys. So God tries to direct us out of danger, but He is unable to fully keep us from it. Imagine a parent whose child wanders out into the middle of the highway... the parent told the child not to wander into the road, but the child did not listen. It would never have been the parent's desire for the child to be hurt... even for disobeying. But that's just the way it works... and once God set his spiritual design (not physical design) and let go of control, He has no choice but to let things play out as they must.

 

So I guess the big question is... can a person who doesn't believe God exists still find eternal happiness? I really don't know. There can also be a lot of different levels of happiness. Maybe you can lead a good life avoiding all the spiritual dangers if you follow your heart and what you believe is right. Maybe by following truth, a person is following God, even if they refuse to believe He exists. But I tend to think, no matter what, a person will miss out on at least some of the intimacy of knowing God and the joy there is in that intimacy if they never believe He's real. I for one do believe in God... a God with a real intelligence and soul who cares deeply for His creations. And I believe in Jesus and I love my beliefs. They pretty much alienate me from most everyone... I don't fit in churches, I don't fit in with the athiests, with muslims, buddhists, or pretty much anyone. The number of real friends I have I can count on one hand. But strange as it sounds, I'm happy. I'm alone most of the time as far as other people go, but I'm happy. And I'm glad this life is finite... this life is tough and full of challenges. I try to enjoy each moment I can, but there are a lot of times I say to myself that I'll be glad when it's all over. I look at this life like a really tough growing experience. But it's wonderful and beautiful as much as it is difficult. I've come to crave the challenge. There was a time when I was younger, I could have said 50k/yr, a 9-5 job, a few chances to travel, and a pretty wife would have made me happy. Oh, not now... I'd die if I thought that's all my life would be now.

 

Anyways, I know pretty much whatever I say here, it's just gonna piss people off. It's a sore subject for some reason. I haven't believed in God my whole life, but I've never minded discussing it. But regardless, I will leave everyone in peace now.

 

I really hope we all find the answers and happiness we are looking for.

 

-Wolf

[florduh]

Wolf, I'm not pissed off. But I'm at a loss as to what you are trying to convey.

 

Your logic is non-existent and you think there was a Jesus character who said things, some of which you think are right, yet you don't put much faith in the Bible - the only place the Jesus idea comes from.

 

You say you believe certain mystical or spiritual ideas but offer no reason why.

 

I think maybe most of us are just confused as to your purpose in posting. Do you want confirmation that what you believe is true? Do you want your beliefs proven false? Do you want to tell us what you think for no particular reason?

[Guest Wolf in the Light]

Wolf, I'm not pissed off. But I'm at a loss as to what you are trying to convey.

 

Your logic is non-existent and you think there was a Jesus character who said things, some of which you think are right, yet you don't put much faith in the Bible - the only place the Jesus idea comes from.

 

You say you believe certain mystical or spiritual ideas but offer no reason why.

 

I think maybe most of us are just confused as to your purpose in posting. Do you want confirmation that what you believe is true? Do you want your beliefs proven false? Do you want to tell us what you think for no particular reason?

Ya know those movies where it has, "Based on a true story" at the beginning. I kinda take that as the bible intro. You listen to the story and decide for yourself what you think happened... what parts you think might be made up, what parts might be exagerrated, and what parts you believe are true. It's a matter individual to each person, I think. There are a lot of things I believe really were as said in the bible. A lot of things I don't think happened as said... and some I just don't know about and I'm really OK with that.

 

Logic has its place... I was a math major. But there are some things in my life I wouldn't even try to apply logic to. For instance, if you asked me why I loved another person and to give you a logical proof for it... I wouldn't even try. Some things you just know in yourself and for you, that's all that matters.

 

As for why I post, why I talk... just social interaction mainly. I like to see what other people think, see what they think about what I think, just interact for the sake of interacting, gaining perspective, and learning about what other people find passion in. Maybe it has no purpose? I dunno.

[Guest end3]

Damn... this is too many brains against my one brain.

 

 

Wolf, don't be afraid to pick up a sword and cut some ears off.......they don't use them anyway....

[Antlerman]

Anyways, I know pretty much whatever I say here, it's just gonna piss people off. It's a sore subject for some reason. I haven't believed in God my whole life, but I've never minded discussing it. But regardless, I will leave everyone in peace now.

 

I really hope we all find the answers and happiness we are looking for.

 

-Wolf

Dude, you've not pissed me off. In fact I'm going to stick my neck out and say you're quite cool and I respect what you're saying, more than you realize. I'm going to offer differences of perspective with you, but you're far from the typical xtian apologist who tries to 'share' their doctrines. You talk about yourself and your views, not what you think we should be. That's very cool and makes you more than OK in my book. No need to run, and I'll enjoy discussion with you.

 

I'll form a response, but for now just wanted to say that.

[Antlerman]

Damn... this is too many brains against my one brain.

 

 

Wolf, don't be afraid to pick up a sword and cut some ears off.......they don't use them anyway....

Oh shut up End

[florduh]

Yeah, what AM said.

[Ouroboros]

Wolf, don't be afraid to pick up a sword and cut some ears off.......they don't use them anyway....

What..? What..? I can't hear you? I can see your lips moving, but I can't hear any sound coming out...

[MathGeek]

Dear Wolf,

 

I can see where you are coming from. I don't know what to believe in anymore, nor I do really care. All I know is that there are too many strains of Christianity on this planet trying to win the hearts and minds of everybody they come across. In fact, you may understand one of my reasons for my agnosticism: you and I clearly have different perspectives on metaphysics. Furthermore, toss in every user's assertions (critically evaluated or not) and you have over 4,000 right there. Include the rest of the population of Earth and you have over 6 billion. 6 billion individual perspectives on metaphysics, that's a hard amount to swallow, let alone to critically dissect. There is a chance that you and I could reach an understanding on metaphysical issues as could we with MAYBE this small pocket of Internet surfers. Otherwise, I would take this task be improbable to foment.

 

That numerical argument alone is a large factor in my agnosticism.

 

I apologize for coming off like some angry attack dog.

[SWIM]

Damn... this is too many brains against my one brain.

 

 

Wolf, don't be afraid to pick up a sword and cut some ears off.......they don't use them anyway....

 

 

 

LOL look whos talking, pretty much need sign language to talk to you, lol!

[JernJane]

To truly believe in Jesus doesn't mean to believe, "Jesus came to earth and died for my sins yada yada yada." To truly believe means to believe in the *way* he lived his life... it means to desire in your heart to live your own life in such a way.

 

I'd like to ask you a question: Do you truly desire to sell all of your possessions and give the money to the poor? Apparently that's what Jesus did and what he demanded of his followers according to the gospels. If your standard of a "true Christian" is how Jesus lived his life, then you can pretty much call all the western Christians damned.

[chefranden]

But hey... there's good news. God ain't vindictive, he doesn't give a shit about the past,

 

1Samuel 15: 1 Samuel said to Saul, "I am the one the LORD sent to anoint you king over his people Israel; so listen now to the message from the LORD. 2 This is what the LORD Almighty says: 'I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt*. 3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy [a] everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.' "

 

Incident happened 10 generations before Samuel and Saul.

[chefranden]

Yeah, I do love Jesus... but the bible is just a book. That's my take on it. I don't feel that's a contradiction at all. I mean, who ever said the bible was God's word? As best I can remember, I've only heard that shit in church. Jesus never talked about the bible...there was no bible when he was alive.

 

How would you know about Jesus without that book?

 

What do you mean by "I do love Jesus..."? You love the idea of Jesus? Or you love a Jesus that is still alive? Where did you get that idea? From the book directly or indirectly that's where. But it is just a book, so why do you believe in Jesus?

 

You say you don't know any religious words so probably you haven't read the bible and you are pretty much making your religion out of whole cloth. You are a solipsist Mr. Wolf and any decent church going Christian would brand you a heretic. For as it is written:

 

Galations1:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 8But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

[florduh]

What the hell are you babbling about, wolf?

 

You say the Bible is just a book, but that book is the place where Jesus was invented, and the only place you'll find mention of him.

 

There is no Jesus without the book.