Out Of Body Experiences

[Dhampir]

It is widely believed that the soul has senses just as the body does, the body only replicates the functions of the soul on this plane of existence.

This of course, is never completely thought through. It indicates that everything with even a remote consciousness and sensory input has a soul. Which further asks-- Why is it that we can see over 100 million distinct colors, yet we can't see Ultraviolet? How come we can't smell the things a dog can smell? Does a dog soul have the ability to see as well as we can? Can our souls smell as well as a bloodhound, or see ultraviolet? And what the hell is there to be experienced as a soul? What non-corporeal smells are there to experience? Nothing? Then how does one's "spirit nose", so to speak smell things in the corporeal realm? And what's the point?

Both are possible, I cant tell you which is more likely......but why are the average accounts basically the same...lifting out of the body, feelings of euphoria, floating away, seeing a white light and/or tunnel, seeing relatives that have passed, meeting up with some divine being etc., is it more likely everybody's brain is hallucinating the same things in the cases of NDEs and OOBEs?? Or is it more likely that some are hallucinating and some are actually leaving the body??

Some would argue that the homogeneity of experiences is proof that the natural explanation better fits the event than the idea that there's any spiritual anything going on. I would further argue that OBE'S helped give rise to the idea of a soul in the first place all those millenia ago. My question is, how is it that the soul has defeated EVERY attempt to observe it scientifically?

[PiracyOfTheHead]

Piracy: It is widely believed that the soul has senses just as the body does, the body only replicates the functions of the soul on this plane of existence.

 

Dhampir: This of course, is never completely thought through. It indicates that everything with even a remote consciousness and sensory input has a soul. Which further asks-- Why is it that we can see over 100 million distinct colors, yet we can't see Ultraviolet? How come we can't smell the things a dog can smell? Does a dog soul have the ability to see as well as we can? Can our souls smell as well as a bloodhound, or see ultraviolet? And what the hell is there to be experienced as a soul? What non-corporeal smells are there to experience? Nothing? Then how does one's "spirit nose", so to speak smell things in the corporeal realm? And what's the point?

 

Piracy: Why would humans having a soul beg the necessity of a soul in any other creature or living thing in the universe or not? You cant randomly say IF one thing is one way, other things have to be another way, or vice versa.

 

We cant see ultraviolet so we dont have a soul??

 

Dogs smell things we dont so we dont have a soul?? Im not seeing the logic here

 

What the soul would experience as a soul would depend on what the soul is exactly, where it is, why it is, not knowing the answer to this doesnt answer IF we have a soul...

 

Did our ancient ancestors have scientific explanations of the sense of smell to be able to smell?? A soul would be able to smell if the soul was able to interface with odor, as simple as that, it could be an entirely different process, why the hell do we not understand the physical universe completely?? The existence of an unknown, a puzzle, a mystery doesnt in itself create the impossibility of the phenomena...

 

Explaining differences in abilities between species and living organisms neither proves nor disproves any single thing we've talked about here, its just as possible that all living things have a soul and whatever physical manifestion they embody hampers any ability the soul has in its contemporary "soul plane", so a soul embodied in a dog is only able to do as dog does, a soul in a rabbit can only do as rabbit does and so on.

 

Piracy: Both are possible, I cant tell you which is more likely......but why are the average accounts basically the same...lifting out of the body, feelings of euphoria, floating away, seeing a white light and/or tunnel, seeing relatives that have passed, meeting up with some divine being etc., is it more likely everybody's brain is hallucinating the same things in the cases of NDEs and OOBEs?? Or is it more likely that some are hallucinating and some are actually leaving the body??

 

 

Dhampir: Some would argue that the homogeneity of experiences is proof that the natural explanation better fits the event than the idea that there's any spiritual anything going on. I would further argue that OBE'S helped give rise to the idea of a soul in the first place all those millenia ago. My question is, how is it that the soul has defeated EVERY attempt to observe it scientifically?

 

 

Piracy: Once again, dismissing an idea because it cant be proven or you dont know that it isnt proven DOES NOT MAKE IT SO.

 

I didnt know that the scientific community had exhausted every attempt to prove the existence of a soul and had come to the conclusion that the search was over, that there is absolutely no proof, if that had happened we wouldnt even be discussing this, so thats not a true statement and once again, assumes that we even know how to look for a soul scientifically.....the scientific method just may not be the ONLY way in the universe to find something out...and this argument could go on and on and on.................

[agnosticator]

I had a couple out of body experiences where I "fell" through my bed! I would enduce them by laying on my back in the dark on a bed until I started to feel a floating and vibrating sensation. They were accompanied by a weird dream and a popping sound just before the projection.

 

I can't do it anymore. It was a few month's period when I could.

 

I read up on the subject and I think I induced hypnopompic and hypnogogic states. I would suggest reading books on Anomalistic Psychology like Neher's THE PSYCHOLOGY OF TRANSCENDENCE, or Susan Blackmore's books and research. They are enlightening.

[florduh]

I have no idea why, but some people believe in a soul, a god, a Jesus, astral projection, pk, mindreading, and other fantastic concepts.

 

What they all have in common is that rather than prove their assertions of unseen and illogical supernatural phenomena, they insist that everyone else must disprove their claims, as if by default they are true simply because they believe or think such things should be so.

 

In some cases, in addition to logic and common sense, there have been extensive scientific inquiries for decades that consistently have the same result - they debunk the phenomenon. This evidence is always dismissed by the True Believer™ regardless of what his pet belief is, be it Christianity, the Bible, astrology, past life regression, auras, crystal power, pyramid power, or astral projection.

 

It would be easy for a proponent of out-of-body experiences to prove it is a real phenomenon. Just leave your body and observe something concrete at a distance, and accurately report what you saw. This has never happened since serious study began in the 1960s. I must conclude that it is merely a sensation experienced in the mind, and consciousness never leaves the body and returns with real experiences of the travel. Believers will always say that it is still possible anyway. The tests were faulty, there is a conspiracy among researchers, etc.

 

It is a fruitless discussion.

[agnosticator]

I don't think it's a fruitless discussion if we learn from experts who study it, and show us how the brain works. I think the brain's processes and way of interpreting the world is fascinating.

[florduh]

No, exploring something real, like the mind, is not fruitless. After the evidence is in and ignored, discussion with a true believer is fruitless, because faith trumps everything else.

[agnosticator]

I see what you mean...

[Dhampir]

Piracy: It is widely believed that the soul has senses just as the body does, the body only replicates the functions of the soul on this plane of existence.

 

Dhampir: This of course, is never completely thought through. It indicates that everything with even a remote consciousness and sensory input has a soul. Which further asks-- Why is it that we can see over 100 million distinct colors, yet we can't see Ultraviolet? How come we can't smell the things a dog can smell? Does a dog soul have the ability to see as well as we can? Can our souls smell as well as a bloodhound, or see ultraviolet? And what the hell is there to be experienced as a soul? What non-corporeal smells are there to experience? Nothing? Then how does one's "spirit nose", so to speak smell things in the corporeal realm? And what's the point?

 

Piracy: Why would humans having a soul beg the necessity of a soul in any other creature or living thing in the universe or not? You cant randomly say IF one thing is one way, other things have to be another way, or vice versa.

 

We cant see ultraviolet so we dont have a soul??

 

Dogs smell things we dont so we dont have a soul?? Im not seeing the logic here

 

What the soul would experience as a soul would depend on what the soul is exactly, where it is, why it is, not knowing the answer to this doesnt answer IF we have a soul...

 

Did our ancient ancestors have scientific explanations of the sense of smell to be able to smell?? A soul would be able to smell if the soul was able to interface with odor, as simple as that, it could be an entirely different process, why the hell do we not understand the physical universe completely?? The existence of an unknown, a puzzle, a mystery doesnt in itself create the impossibility of the phenomena...

 

Explaining differences in abilities between species and living organisms neither proves nor disproves any single thing we've talked about here, its just as possible that all living things have a soul and whatever physical manifestion they embody hampers any ability the soul has in its contemporary "soul plane", so a soul embodied in a dog is only able to do as dog does, a soul in a rabbit can only do as rabbit does and so on.

 

Piracy: Both are possible, I cant tell you which is more likely......but why are the average accounts basically the same...lifting out of the body, feelings of euphoria, floating away, seeing a white light and/or tunnel, seeing relatives that have passed, meeting up with some divine being etc., is it more likely everybody's brain is hallucinating the same things in the cases of NDEs and OOBEs?? Or is it more likely that some are hallucinating and some are actually leaving the body??

 

 

Dhampir: Some would argue that the homogeneity of experiences is proof that the natural explanation better fits the event than the idea that there's any spiritual anything going on. I would further argue that OBE'S helped give rise to the idea of a soul in the first place all those millenia ago. My question is, how is it that the soul has defeated EVERY attempt to observe it scientifically?

 

 

Piracy: Once again, dismissing an idea because it cant be proven or you dont know that it isnt proven DOES NOT MAKE IT SO.

 

I didnt know that the scientific community had exhausted every attempt to prove the existence of a soul and had come to the conclusion that the search was over, that there is absolutely no proof, if that had happened we wouldnt even be discussing this, so thats not a true statement and once again, assumes that we even know how to look for a soul scientifically.....the scientific method just may not be the ONLY way in the universe to find something out...and this argument could go on and on and on.................

I'm establishing that begging the question of the soul's existence does by it's own virtue beg the question of whether or not anything else ( a dog or a bee for instance) has a soul. Essentially, the soul itself is unproven, and not even reasonably demonstrated, therefore it is valid to question its characteristics relative to what we know about living things. What you "know" about a soul is based solely on what you know about things that *aren't* souls. Why should a soul be able to smell things? Because you can smell things. What senses does a disembodied soul have that you don't? You don't know, and you don't care because you don't have any of those senses. Why shouldn't other living things have souls? And, if our bodies take in sensory input the way our souls do, but differently, why wouldn't every living thing have a soul?

 

I never said being able to, or not being able to perceive anything in any way is proof against the existence of a soul. My statements arose because as I said, accepting the existence of a soul as being possible, just because it HASN'T been disproven, is to beg the question, which in turn begs further questions, such as the ones I posed.

 

Piracy: Once again, dismissing an idea because it cant be proven or you dont know that it isnt proven DOES NOT MAKE IT SO.

 

I didnt know that the scientific community had exhausted every attempt to prove the existence of a soul and had come to the conclusion that the search was over, that there is absolutely no proof, if that had happened we wouldnt even be discussing this, so thats not a true statement and once again, assumes that we even know how to look for a soul scientifically.....the scientific method just may not be the ONLY way in the universe to find something out...and this argument could go on and on and on.................

Allow me to explain the difference between what you're talking about, and what I'm talking about. 2,000 years ago, man explored and learned volumes and volumes of things about the universe, through the science of astronomy. They were able to make observations, and to a degree, test them, and create things based upon their predictions and observations which turned out to be true. Today, their knowledge of astronomy pales by comparison to current knowledge. That's because with advancing technology came ways to observe the universe that just weren't available to the ancients. The couldn't possibly have learned what he have, because they simply didn't have the means. BUT, 2,000 years ago, they didn't NOT have the ability to learn things about the universe. They didn't NOT know things about celestial bodies.

 

7,000-13,000 years ago, the idea of a soul came into existence. 7,000-13,000 years later, WE DON'T KNOW A DAMN THING MORE THAN WE DID THEN! We're asking the same questions those people back then asked, and we're getting the same exact speculation, based upon begging the question, and assuming things we can't test, demonstrate, or prove, while taking for granted that the soul is somehow a valid and worthwhile assumption. Sure, the Scientific Method is not the only way to learn things, but clearly, none of our other methods have yielded anything that stands up to scrutiny.

 

Being able to perceive something is the basis for scientific inquiry. Just as we were able to learn things about the universe that our ancestors couldn't, just as our descendants will learn things we currently can't, we should be able to apply science at some level to determine what we can learn about anything that we can perceive. When you say "the scientific method just may not be the ONLY way in the universe etc. etc." I know what you're doing is invoking some mystical extra-sensory perception of things we just can't see as yet. Here's the thing: People believe in the existence of souls because they observe them interacting with the natural world. If a soul interacts with the natural world, WE SHOULD be able to measure that interaction scientifically. 1,000 years ago, they should have been able to do this. But every (known) attempt to do so has yielded negative results, or explanations that are less spectacular than souls (ultra low-frequency vibration comes to mind). At the very best, the results are inconclusive.

 

There are so many different ideas as to what a soul is, and how it works. All of the ones I've encountered are logically impossible, and those two facts are why science largely dismisses the whole concept. Not that there haven't been tests and experiments done, but wishful thinking does not amount to evidence, and until something comes along that science can do more with, you can't expect anyone to bend over backwards to confirm what you want to believe. The whole point is that science not being the sole way in which something can be learned is NO excuse for why the soul remains nothing more than speculation. I'm not a science "fundamentalist"; . If it exists, we should have been able to at least demonstrate it, if not prove it completely. It's been around too long for that to not be true.

[Dhampir]

Additionally:

Piracy: Once again, dismissing an idea because it cant be proven or you dont know that it isnt proven DOES NOT MAKE IT SO.

That reasoning makes the Christian God just as likely to be real-- after all, we have NOT disproved him conclusively.

[Dhampir]

I'd like to restate for the record, that I do have ideas regarding both astral projection, and reincarnation, but that neither of those things require, as far as I'm concerned, that there be a soul.

[PiracyOfTheHead]

I have no idea why, but some people believe in a soul, a god, a Jesus, astral projection, pk, mindreading, and other fantastic concepts.

 

What they all have in common is that rather than prove their assertions of unseen and illogical supernatural phenomena, they insist that everyone else must disprove their claims, as if by default they are true simply because they believe or think such things should be so.

 

In some cases, in addition to logic and common sense, there have been extensive scientific inquiries for decades that consistently have the same result - they debunk the phenomenon. This evidence is always dismissed by the True Believer™ regardless of what his pet belief is, be it Christianity, the Bible, astrology, past life regression, auras, crystal power, pyramid power, or astral projection.

 

Theres your first problem, because you have no idea why, it must not be so.

 

How can I prove that I choked and lifted out of my body?? How can my father prove he floated above buildings when he died in the hospital at 12?? Personally, theres no way to do that...just like the masses of humans that have claimed this over the milennia.

BUT....

 

As far as there being extensive studies that have all turned up false, why is the CIA and DOD STILL conducting Remote viewing, you would think they would have scrapped the bloody thing after 50 years because Florduh doesnt buy it...yet on they go and if you simply google CIA REMOTE VIEWING and other such keywords you will find that this is true, the government/military is still conducting and proving remote viewing is possible, there are also documentaries and reports, on video, on the web demonstrating remote viewing, just google it, its right there, but if you dont want to believe something, just as Florduh has asserted with True Believers, the same goes in reverse to Non Believers, they can come up with every reason in the world to NOT believe these accounts, these documentaries, these rports, the extensive literature on the subject showing that you can in fact view objects at a distance and prove it scientifically. Im sure there will have to be some special "stamp" on the tests that do prove this to be true in order for people who dont want to believe it, because they will find every reason in the world to debunk it until the processes are refined and it becomes undeniable...but even then if you do want to believe or dont want to believe, you'll usually get what you want.

 

As far as astral projection, which isnt exactly the same as remote viewing, I have not looked into much data concerning it, since it happened to me, happened to my father, others I know claim the same and I never had a reason to try and "prove" it, I had done it one time while choking, and another on purpose. But I did do a quick google search right now and found that there appears to be documentation, I guess if it comes down to it I could research the thing but its not my main interest at this point in my miserable life.

 

In the end it may be fruitless though, to even argue over such a thing, each of us searching around for other people to prove one way or the other when you can just try for yourself.

 

Thats pretty much all I have to say about it, im not that concerned with it and we have differing opinions on the board, whats new??

 

Hey there Florduh, its good to be back and see ya around, even if you're a cynic...you always keep the playing field pretty level.... makes it more challenging for us weirdos!!!

 

I still get a laugh out of your "Cranky Old Bastard" image, I personally believe if anybody could prove astral projection, its Carl.

 

mm hmm

[florduh]

Again, rather than prove that OOB is real (which would be easy if it were true) we non-believers are expected to disprove it. It just doesn't work that way.

 

My "problem" is that people of various cultures and times have postulated all sorts of supernatural events and entities. All those ideas arose from subjective experiences of the mind, usually under stress, drugs, or the hypnotic frenzy of religious rites and were perpetuated through the culture as accepted beliefs. With the same evidence there is for OOB experience (none) people have believed in fairies, dragons, incubi and succubi. People have believed unquestioningly that there were witches possessed by demons. There are some who believe the human race was started by aliens.

 

I just don't know why people start believing such things when there is no evidence, or even proof against it. I don't consider that to be one of my "problems."

[SWIM]

Well if you think about the science of the body, vision is light transformed by lens in the eye, like a camara on the retina. The signal is transmitted to your brain via a nerve. The light is processed and focused by the eye. So, how can an astral you, which has no eyes, nor brain to process the data, even be remotely close to possible? How could you "see" anything?

 

1) Either we have a soul or we dont.

 

 

 

 

We don't or at least it is HIGHLY unlikely. No brain to process data, no memory cells to store the memories we have accumulated the make up our personality. Good and bad experiences, exposures, the balance of chemicals in the brain, all these things make us who we are. Having a "soul" with memory storage, optical nerves etc etc, is SUPER unlikely.

 

So if it is unlikely there is a soul, it is HIGHLY unlikely "you" can leave your body.

 

End of story as far as I am concerned...

[BlueGiant]

Dhampir: Actually, the human retina can be stimulated by UV, and in that sense, we could see into that color range, however, the lens of the eye itself absorbs in the UV range, (most proteins have a strong UV absorption).

 

All:

I guess the real trick with proving astral projection or other OBEs from an outsider's perspective, is that one is looking for some other medium that the projector is using to extend perceptions, something that can detect light/sound/feel and otherwise interact with its environment. That should be detectable, though without knowing what it is, it could be rather difficult.

 

How do we prove that a perceptive experience isn't just all in our heads, since it is inherently subjective

? I like the top of the shelf picture thing, any other ideas?

[florduh]

"How do we prove that a perceptive experience isn't just all in our heads, since it is inherently subjective

? I like the top of the shelf picture thing, any other ideas?"

 

 

OOB would be one of the easiest things to prove. Just leave your body, observe something that is out of sight to your physical body, and report back with accurate information on what you observed while you were out.

 

All we get are reports of the "floating" sensation, "I looked down on my body," or "I hovered above the roof and looked down on the birds flying by." No one has ever said that there was a blue gym shoe on the roof or there was a poker game going on in the next room at six o'clock. There is never any information that can be verified because hallucinations aren't reality.

[PiracyOfTheHead]

Self <snip>

 

I had a bunch to say and all that but thinking it over, Id rather just retract it, this smacks too much of eing a protestant and arguing over predestination, or once saved always saved.....I wana be about the LOVE these days.

 

Sooooooooo...

 

Have fun

[agnosticator]

http://skepdic.com/remotevw.html

 

I didn't finish looking through links, but here's one I read that's interesting about the CIA and remote viewing.

[Dhampir]

As far as Dhampir's statements, the road is widening and becoming more crooked, I dont even know the intent of your statements at this point, a flurry of what ifs, maybes, opinions

Oh, come on! I went into detail, but I went out of my way to make it as simple as possible. This statement and what follows makes me think you didn't try very hard to understand where I'm coming from. Please re-read it and get back to me-- I put a lot of work into that reply.

[PiracyOfTheHead]

Oh, come on! I went into detail, but I went out of my way to make it as simple as possible. This statement and what follows makes me think you didn't try very hard to understand where I'm coming from. Please re-read it and get back to me-- I put a lot of work into that reply.

 

Bro..my brain isnt even working that well these days....I will Re-read it later today.....I feel like this

 

Anyways, I didnt mean to make light of it, so i will check it out, sorry for my reply being hasty.

[BlueGiant]

"How do we prove that a perceptive experience isn't just all in our heads, since it is inherently subjective

? I like the top of the shelf picture thing, any other ideas?"

 

 

OOB would be one of the easiest things to prove. Just leave your body, observe something that is out of sight to your physical body, and report back with accurate information on what you observed while you were out.

 

All we get are reports of the "floating" sensation, "I looked down on my body," or "I hovered above the roof and looked down on the birds flying by." No one has ever said that there was a blue gym shoe on the roof or there was a poker game going on in the next room at six o'clock. There is never any information that can be verified because hallucinations aren't reality.

 

Well you'd think it would be, however, if someone was indeed in a different state, or had actually projected themselves would it not stand to reason that it'd take time to figure out how to do basic things like move (assuming that is possible). Also, don't remote viewers specifically do this (or at least claim to)?

 

Even if someone came back with specifics, you'd probably accuse them of using plants or staging the test (and I'd agree with you that that was the more likely outcome), but it would be by no means proof positive. How about coming up with a harder to fake test.

 

Also, should we delineate between "projection": willingly extending one's perceptions by separating some part of their conscious from their meat-body versus a NDE, where the person is a bit more forcefully evicted, put mildly. It may be that these are two entirely different phenomena with different mechanisms, though a similar appearance and outcome, like cerebral palsy. And yes, I am suggesting these tests in a hypothetical setting.

[PiracyOfTheHead]

As far as Dhampir's statements, the road is widening and becoming more crooked, I dont even know the intent of your statements at this point, a flurry of what ifs, maybes, opinions

Oh, come on! I went into detail, but I went out of my way to make it as simple as possible. This statement and what follows makes me think you didn't try very hard to understand where I'm coming from. Please re-read it and get back to me-- I put a lot of work into that reply.

 

To be honest Dhamp, I am really confused about a lot of this stuff myself, I didnt mean to marginalize what you said, its just that I am in new territory and I cant figure out the whole of every subject, and cover it from all aspects when its so new.

 

Certain things have happened to me and people I trust, and I dont know what to do about it, or what to think...I am not trying to be quarrelsome, I had what seemed to be OOBEs and people I am close to have had the same thing, I dont feel i should have to defend it to the world, I dont know.

 

Thats the big picture now, it seems the more I learn the less I freakin know, its pissing me off. I would still like to live in a world where a special or supernatural event can happen to me and just cherish it within my own heart, and ascribe the meaning I want to it.

 

I am becoming lost within reason almost as much as I was lost in "faith", the world around me has so many anomalies and unexplainable phenomena.

 

 

I have no real answer for you at this time, I just wanted to express that Dhampir...I know you put a lot of work into it, I understand.

 

Maybe someday I will understand this insane existence I call my life and answer your questions with more clarity.