BuddhistCommunist Posted July 26, 2005 Share Posted July 26, 2005 I hear alot of people say that Atheism and Agnosticism are not Religions, but I believe they are. Athiesm From what people think it is is, To not have faith in a god, To not believe there is a god. But I think they are, To have faith there is no God, To believe there is no god. Atheism contains both belief and Faith, the same as agnosticism. Atheism and Agnosticism do not have gods or for agnosticism not a known god, but belief that there is not a god, or not a known god is their philosophy. Buddhism and Confucionism dont have Gods and They just follow certain philosophies about the world in order to help them get through it. And also All a religion is is a group of people that believe in something, they don't even have to know each other. In my opinion the fact that athiests have faith there is no god and belief there is no god, makes them a religion... wow I wonder If I actually said something Zen like I meditated before I wrote this. Well thats my opinion. Post your opinions as well, or comment on mine. I dont mind critisicm so blast away if need be! Matt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotter Posted July 26, 2005 Share Posted July 26, 2005 Good thread. I attempt to make it concise: Atheism and Agnosticism each is a ‘belief’. The belief that there is no God (former); the belief that there may be / may not be a God, but not up to man’s capacity to prove (latter). Religion, in short, is ‘organized belief’. Additional distinctive characteristic of religion is: there is metaphysical content; and eschatology (future and ultimate spiritual destiny of humanity/faith followers). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vulgaris Prime Posted July 26, 2005 Share Posted July 26, 2005 I hear alot of people say that Atheism and Agnosticism are not Religions, but I believe they are. You'd better grab your ass for this one, because this thread ain't gonna be pretty. Athiesm From what people think it is is, To not have faith in a god, To not believe there is a god. But I think they are, To have faith there is no God, To believe there is no god. Atheism contains both belief and Faith, the same as agnosticism. Lack of faith != faith, just as zero != one. And restating something does not change what it is. Most children learn that in math class around first grade - 1+2=3 the same as 2+1=3. Atheism and Agnosticism do not have gods or for agnosticism not a known god, but belief that there is not a god, or not a known god is their philosophy. Philosophy != religion. If your statement were true, then all philosophers are clergy. Buddhism and Confucionism dont have Gods and They just follow certain philosophies about the world in order to help them get through it. And also All a religion is is a group of people that believe in something, they don't even have to know each other. re·li·gion n. 1. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe. 2. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship. The life or condition of a person in a religious order. 3. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader. 4. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion. Sorry, you've gotten mixed up somewhere along the line. Retrace your steps and try again. In my opinion the fact that athiests have faith there is no god and belief there is no god, makes them a religion... It's wrong when the fundies say it, and it's wrong when you say it. I suggest you do some serious research into what atheism IS rather than simply making wild guesses. Lemme get you started: my belief that there is no god is not a statement of faith, no more than if I said that the mouse I'm using with this computer is black. It's not just guessing, it's making a statement based on established facts. wow I wonder If I actually said something Zen like I meditated before I wrote this. Well thats my opinion. Post your opinions as well, or comment on mine. I dont mind critisicm so blast away if need be!Matt Done and done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skankboy Posted July 26, 2005 Share Posted July 26, 2005 No offense, but I believe you are confusing "religion" and "philosophy". Both are paradigms for dealing w/the world around us. The difference is usually that one contains an element of worship (ie a supernatural element) and the other is an admittedly man made system for living by. Also, be careful when using "faith" and "belief" interchangably. One is supported by evidence, the other is inspite of evidence. Ex. I don't need faith that the sun will rise tomorrow. I would need faith to believe that it rose because Apollo is dragging it around. PS. Nice to see another buddhist around the shop! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Checkmate Posted July 26, 2005 Share Posted July 26, 2005 Okay. Let me keep this simple and then I am OUT of here, never to return. (To THIS thread.) ATHEISM - A (without), THE (God), ISM (Belief). Without belief in god or gods. Atheism CANNOT be a "religion". By definition of BOTH words. It is IMPOSSIBLE. As has been popularly coined, "Atheism is a religion, like baldness is a hair color." This is as simple as I can make it. Any further explanation would be a waste of time. Take my advice and stop travelling down this thread. My 2 cents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazy-tiger Posted July 26, 2005 Share Posted July 26, 2005 I hear alot of people say that Atheism and Agnosticism are not Religions, but I believe they are. Athiesm From what people think it is is, To not have faith in a god, To not believe there is a god. But I think they are, To have faith there is no God, To believe there is no god. Atheism contains both belief and Faith, the same as agnosticism. Atheism and Agnosticism do not have gods or for agnosticism not a known god, but belief that there is not a god, or not a known god is their philosophy. Hmm... Do you have faith that there is no Tooth Fairy? Do you believe there is no Tooth Fairy? From what you just said, that would be a religion too... Buddhism and Confucionism dont have Gods and They just follow certain philosophies about the world in order to help them get through it. And also All a religion is is a group of people that believe in something, they don't even have to know each other.I'll only say this once, because I'm starting to get a bit pissed off about having to repeat myself on this...religion → n. 1. the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods. • a particular system of faith and worship. 2. a pursuit or interest followed with great devotion. Neither definition describes Atheism or Agnosticism... In my opinion the fact that athiests have faith there is no god and belief there is no god, makes them a religion... wow I wonder If I actually said something Zen like I meditated before I wrote this. Well thats my opinion. Post your opinions as well, or comment on mine. I dont mind critisicm so blast away if need be!Matt <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Well, you asked for it. The mistake you're making is failing to notice that it's a refusal to believe claims that God/s exist, (Atheism) or that we don't know if they do or not. (Agnosticism) Do we have "faith" that the claims are wrong? No, we don't. What we do have is the recognotion that there has been no evidence provided for those claims. Not faith, not belief, just reason... And if reason makes Atheism a religion, you need a better dictionary... Now, if you excuse me, I've got to prepare the next sermon for the Atooth-Fairyist church. I do hope that all you Atooth-Fairyists will be there... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Neil Posted July 26, 2005 Share Posted July 26, 2005 Sorry. You don't automatically jump into one religion just because you kicked someone else's to the curb. The god concept has to be introduced to the individual, and just like any other concept, it's subject to rejection. It's a concept that has nothing to do with our experience as human beings. Not believing in what is essentially a cartoon character, this god person, does not make it a faith. But most importantly, there simply is no core doctrine of atheism or agnosticism. There is a large degree of diversity in political belief, morality, civil rights... some are pro-life... others are pro-choice... The only thing we all have in common is that we we've rejected this concept of magic ghosts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuddhistCommunist Posted July 26, 2005 Author Share Posted July 26, 2005 Apparently you missed the entire point Vulgaris, do to your lack of knowledge of other religions. For one, Math and Language are two completly different things. Math is something that deals in 2+2=4, language is much more complex as it has multiple meanings. You cant just not believe in something, belief is a part of perception. Just because you cannot percieve it doesn't mean you can say it doesn't exist. Atheists have strong faith that there is no god, but no one can prove there is no god, in other words thats their faith and belief is that there is no god. And I dont care What the dictionary's definition is, Religions have been around alot longer than dictionaries. And don't try to treat me like a fundy, I said what I believed and didn't say dont had to believe it. Criticism not insults please. discussions not arguments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vulgaris Prime Posted July 26, 2005 Share Posted July 26, 2005 Apparently you missed the entire point Vulgaris, do to your lack of knowledge of other religions. Presuming much? For one, Math and Language are two completly different things. Math is something that deals in 2+2=4, language is much more complex as it has multiple meanings. Does the idea of metaphors or allegory escape you? If you think I was being literal, you have a lot to learn and notmuch time to learn it. You cant just not believe in something, belief is a part of perception. Just because you cannot percieve it doesn't mean you can say it doesn't exist. Okay, then, do you perceive the Invisible Pink Unicorn? No? Well, you can't say it doesn't exist because you can't preceive it. Atheists have strong faith that there is no god, but no one can prove there is no god, in other words thats their faith and belief is that there is no god. That argument's going in such fast circles I swear it's going to bore into the earth! And I dont care What the dictionary's definition is, Religions have been around alot longer than dictionaries. Argumentum ad antiquitatem - argument from antiquity. It don't mean shit to me. And don't try to treat me like a fundy, I said what I believed and didn't say dont had to believe it. Criticism not insults please. discussions not arguments. *RIIIING* "Hello, Kettle Industries. Why, hello, Mr. Pot, how are you?" ... "What's that? 'Black', you say? How interesting." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuddhistCommunist Posted July 27, 2005 Author Share Posted July 27, 2005 Wow I knew I would get flak over this one! Buddhists and confusionists don't have a god. For Myself believing there may be a god is part of my faith. I don't understand why people aren't sitting back a thinking about the fact that Atheists all believe in something, whether its the the unknown or Science. So to wrap this up all people have beliefs. for instance Sports is the largest religion in America. lol I never said the invisible pink unicorn doesn't exist. bye Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amethyst Posted July 27, 2005 Share Posted July 27, 2005 I'm sorry, but no. For one thing (and I know some will disagree with me), Atheism and Agnosticism aren't religions. They are philosophies. They have no rituals, no high priests, etc. Now, going by this definition: → n. 1. the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods. • a particular system of faith and worship. 2. a pursuit or interest followed with great devotion. Atheism MIGHT be considered a religion if you follow it with "great devotion," but then by that definition, major sports teams would be religious also. You might have "faith" that your team can still win, even if it's doing badly. A fan might even say he "worships" such and such team or a certain player. But your team isn't supernatural in origin, which sets it apart from religions. However, I think Mr. Neil is correct in that there is no core "doctrine" in atheism or agnosticism. The two even overlap at times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nightflight Posted July 27, 2005 Share Posted July 27, 2005 I wasn't aware that my lack of faith in Odin was a religion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuddhistCommunist Posted July 27, 2005 Author Share Posted July 27, 2005 true, I also notice that quakers dont have high priest or clergy but they do have a god. And buddhists have clergy but don't have a god, Christianity has clergy and a god, Atheism has niether. But I personnaly believe that all people need belief in something, i doesn't have to be anything Supernatural, but its something. If we were all without faith and belief even if its just for a better life for our children or whatever, faith has to be a living thing that will grow the more you learn and it can be in anything. Communists are considered athiests but we all believe in the revolution and the beterment of hummanity. everyone believes in something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asimov Posted July 27, 2005 Share Posted July 27, 2005 re·li·gion Audio pronunciation of "religion" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (r-ljn) n. 1. 1. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe. 2. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship. 2. The life or condition of a person in a religious order. 3. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader. 4. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion. Atheism is none of these. And neither is agnosticism. phi·los·o·phy Audio pronunciation of "philosophy" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (f-ls-f) n. pl. phi·los·o·phies 1. Love and pursuit of wisdom by intellectual means and moral self-discipline. 2. Investigation of the nature, causes, or principles of reality, knowledge, or values, based on logical reasoning rather than empirical methods. 3. A system of thought based on or involving such inquiry: the philosophy of Hume. 4. The critical analysis of fundamental assumptions or beliefs. 5. The disciplines presented in university curriculums of science and the liberal arts, except medicine, law, and theology. 6. The discipline comprising logic, ethics, aesthetics, metaphysics, and epistemology. 7. A set of ideas or beliefs relating to a particular field or activity; an underlying theory: an original philosophy of advertising. 8. A system of values by which one lives: has an unusual philosophy of life. Atheism is a few of this. Atheism is a "Godless Belief". It is not faith in no god. Faith is belief without evidence or rationality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amethyst Posted July 27, 2005 Share Posted July 27, 2005 I wasn't aware that my lack of faith in Odin was a religion. LOL! Well, then I guess my lack of faith in Athena is also a religion. Not to mention, my lack of faith in Allah, Buddah, Kahli, Isis, Baldur, Apollo, Venus, Aphrodite, Diana, and any other potential deity you can think of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuddhistCommunist Posted July 27, 2005 Author Share Posted July 27, 2005 oh yeah and spirituality is a personal thing... religion is in a group...oops I made a booboo from the begining AHHHH please forgive me for saying the wrong thing I forgot half my point and left it out.... AHHH *stupid stupid * Im sorry Ive been leaving out that spirituality is a personal belief and Religion... Religion is a naughty word. Oh and Confusionism is only a religion because it has a founder, otherwise its pure Atheism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuddhistCommunist Posted July 27, 2005 Author Share Posted July 27, 2005 Lets let this topic be destroyed or sink into the abyss! im sorry I wrote it and I hope you all will forgive me. I didn't realize something until a few mins ago and I hope we can put this behind us... Sorry I didn't mean any disrespect, but I will say this. We get mad when christians criticise us but we do the exact same thing to them........ Are we any better... well the answer is yes because we are fighting the oppresion of Most religions so I see where I offended by calling atheism religion... my mistake . thanks for not being too hard on me. well im off to argue with a radical church, bye! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazy-tiger Posted July 27, 2005 Share Posted July 27, 2005 Lets let this topic be destroyed or sink into the abyss! im sorry I wrote it and I hope you all will forgive me. I didn't realize something until a few mins ago and I hope we can put this behind us... Sorry I didn't mean any disrespect, but I will say this. We get mad when christians criticise us but we do the exact same thing to them........ Are we any better... well the answer is yes because we are fighting the oppresion of Most religions so I see where I offended by calling atheism religion... my mistake . thanks for not being too hard on me. well im off to argue with a radical church,bye! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> No sweat... Would you like to argue with Atooth-Fairyist church? (just kidding) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuddhistCommunist Posted July 27, 2005 Author Share Posted July 27, 2005 actually, The church im speaking of believes that christians will go to heaven, but their church will go to heaven with rewards because they fight demons So I think a tooth-Fairiest would be the least of my concern. They go to gay clubs to preach to people and they tell everyone they are wrong and like all other churches, scare away potential converts in the process... By the way I consider the church a cult..... 1. its at a guys house 2. They told me I had evolution demons and Brother Deem would get them out of me. 3. They don't take kindly to outsiders with even slightly different beliefs (they think Catholics are demons and evil) 4. The meetings last 3 to 4 hours. 5. They all tend to have the exact same thoughts..... And they aren't a regulated church. Just a thought Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest aexapo Posted July 27, 2005 Share Posted July 27, 2005 I hear alot of people say that Atheism and Agnosticism are not Religions, but I believe they are. Athiesm From what people think it is is, To not have faith in a god, To not believe there is a god. But I think they are, To have faith there is no God, To believe there is no god. Atheism contains both belief and Faith, the same as agnosticism. Atheism and Agnosticism do not have gods or for agnosticism not a known god, but belief that there is not a god, or not a known god is their philosophy. Buddhism and Confucionism dont have Gods and They just follow certain philosophies about the world in order to help them get through it. And also All a religion is is a group of people that believe in something, they don't even have to know each other. In my opinion the fact that athiests have faith there is no god and belief there is no god, makes them a religion... wow I wonder If I actually said something Zen like I meditated before I wrote this. Well thats my opinion. Post your opinions as well, or comment on mine. I dont mind critisicm so blast away if need be!Matt <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (emphasis mine) Yeah, the endorphines will do that to you. Well, I believe that that is your belief -- does that make it your religion? (the "I believe atheism is a religion"-religion?) I describe myself as an atheist, and to me that means not basing my world-view on philosophical arguments, but on how science is discovering things to be. Science hasn't figured everything out yet -- so, it's impossible to know everything. Science admits it doesn't know everything. Religion, on the other hand, believes it DOES know everything, yet has had to morph and change with every scientific discovery to remain relevant in the modern world. An unshakeable faith requires more consistency than that. I don't believe in atheism -- I believe in science. (Does that make me a scientist? -- LOL!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazy-tiger Posted July 27, 2005 Share Posted July 27, 2005 actually, The church im speaking of believes that christians will go to heaven, but their church will go to heaven with rewards because they fight demons So I think a tooth-Fairiest would be the least of my concern. They go to gay clubs to preach to people and they tell everyone they are wrong and like all other churches, scare away potential converts in the process... By the way I consider the church a cult.....1. its at a guys house 2. They told me I had evolution demons and Brother Deem would get them out of me. 3. They don't take kindly to outsiders with even slightly different beliefs (they think Catholics are demons and evil) 4. The meetings last 3 to 4 hours. 5. They all tend to have the exact same thoughts..... And they aren't a regulated church. Just a thought <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Evolution demons though... now that's a new one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amethyst Posted July 27, 2005 Share Posted July 27, 2005 actually, The church im speaking of believes that christians will go to heaven, but their church will go to heaven with rewards because they fight demons... Is this a Buffy the Vampire Slayer or Angel-worshipping church, by any chance? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amethyst Posted July 27, 2005 Share Posted July 27, 2005 actually, The church im speaking of believes that christians will go to heaven, but their church will go to heaven with rewards because they fight demons... Is this a Buffy the Vampire Slayer or Angel-worshipping church, by any chance? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuddhistCommunist Posted July 27, 2005 Author Share Posted July 27, 2005 Yeah I went there once and they said That bruce lee was an evil man because he practiced eastern arts and had (no bullshit) "karate demons" and when i asked them about these "karate demons" they said there was this guy "who in the day time taught Karate for christ, and at night he was Karate choppin his wife across the livin room!". When I went back with a few friends to question the leaders more, during their prayer they were binding the "allergy demons" and when one woman asked them to pray for her husbands sore throught they said "We bind that Mucas(spl?) in thename of LORD JESUS!!! lol I consider this christianity in its purest form lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amethyst Posted July 27, 2005 Share Posted July 27, 2005 Lets let this topic be destroyed or sink into the abyss! im sorry I wrote it and I hope you all will forgive me. No problem, at least you are willing to admit when you're wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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